God and Morality

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**rossum

As Mark Siderits (1989) has put it, “the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.”**

This does not conform to my view that the ultimate truth is God. So I can only conclude that this brand of Buddhism is atheistic, since the speaker makes himself, not God, the source of a sole ultimate truth.
 
So some Buddhists think there is no truth to the Four Noble Truths? Go figure.
 
Grace & Peace!
**rossum

As Mark Siderits (1989) has put it, “the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.”**

This does not conform to my view that the ultimate truth is God. So I can only conclude that this brand of Buddhism is atheistic, since the speaker makes himself, not God, the source of a sole ultimate truth.
I don’t think that either Siderits or Nagarjuna are making the claim you seem to believe they’re making. What they’re doing is inviting us deeper into a linguistic game so that we can test the limits of our “knowledge” of the Real by recognizing that how we conceive of the Real cannot be completely (or “ultimately”) true, subject as it is to the limitations of our thinking and the limitations of language. “The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth” is (happily and paradoxically) not an actual truth claim. It can’t be. That’s the fun of it. And it’s in the experience of the actual fun of it that we can get closer to what Siderits and Nagarjuna are getting at.

In our own tradition, we can find a related school of thought that takes Paul as it’s touchstone: “For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; Now I know in part, but then shall I know, even as also I am known.” This school is, of course, the Via Negativa of the mystics. And there are few better than the great (Pseudo) Dionysius the Areopagite to articulate what this way of thinking is about. Here are some pertinent sections from the brief tract “The Mystical Theology” (emphasis mine):

…]dear Timothy, in the diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and nonbeing, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with it that transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness.

…] the higher we soar in contemplation the more limited become our expressions of that which is purely intelligible; even as now, when plunging into the Darkness that is above the intellect, we pass not merely into brevity of speech, but even into absolute silence of thoughts and of words.

…]ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion, reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
**Deo

“The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth” is (happily and paradoxically) not an actual truth claim. It can’t be.**

Then I would call it an actual false claim. Statements must be true or false. If not true, then false.

I understand that language limits our understanding, but it’s all we have … even in our dreams.
 
my emphasis:

. . . nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all.

There is an Ultimate Truth.
He is the Truth, before which our thoughts reveal themselves to be like only wisps of smoke.
 
Grace & Peace!
**Deo

“The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth” is (happily and paradoxically) not an actual truth claim. It can’t be.**

Then I would call it an actual false claim. Statements must be true or false. If not true, then false.
I don’t know that I agree. I think there’s room for mystery, metaphor, poetry, irony, parable, paradox, the ephemeral, the evanescent.

There are statements we can make, though, that rely, for their truth, on a consciousness of just how provisional or limited our knowledge is. Most (if not all) “definitive” statements regarding God, for instance, are like that. That’s what Dionysius recognized–it’s also what John of the Cross recognized. It’s also what Bonaventure recognized. Paul. The list goes on.

I.e., we can say that God is good, but God’s goodness is not exhausted or defined by our notion or understanding of goodness. Therefore, “good” is not actually a very accurate description of God…unless we implicitly understand that we’re using it in a very contingent sort of way: limited by our natural / creaturely limitations as well as by the limitations of language to express anything with 100% accuracy. Happily, for the most part, we do understand it that way–it’s what enables us to have any sort of conversation about anything that’s even the least bit ineffable without all sides claiming that everyone’s a liar and a fraud.

The Siderits quotation is playfully trying to get us to be conscious of the disconnect between our understanding of a thing, our capacity to represent that understanding accurately, and the reality of the thing being understood.
I understand that language limits our understanding, but it’s all we have … even in our dreams.
Not only does language limit our understanding, but our understanding limits our ability to accurately express the truth of a thing in language. And yes, it’s all we have, but that doesn’t quite mean it perfectly represents the world to us and us to the world, each other, or even to ourselves.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
**Deo

Not only does language limit our understanding, but our understanding limits our ability to accurately express the truth of a thing in language. And yes, it’s all we have, but that doesn’t quite mean it perfectly represents the world to us and us to the world, each other, or even to ourselves.**

Yes, limits but does not negate our ability to accurately express ourselves on many things, if not all.

The last sentence is very true, but we have to be very careful of falling into a debilitating agnosticism about most things. 😉
 
This does not conform to my view that the ultimate truth is God.
You are not Buddhist, so it is not unexpected that you disagree with Nagarjuna.
So I can only conclude that this brand of Buddhism is atheistic
No it is not. There are many gods in Buddhism, including both of the Madhyamika schools arising from Nagarjuna’s writings. However, the gods are of no real importance and are mostly ignored. They exist, but only as a background feature. Most Western Buddhists ignore them.
since the speaker makes himself, not God, the source of a sole ultimate truth.
You have completely misunderstood what Siderits, and Nagarjuna, are saying. They are saying that what you think to be the ultimate truth almost certainly isn’t. They are telling you that, unless you are enlightened, you are mistaken.

rossum
 
So some Buddhists think there is no truth to the Four Noble Truths? Go figure.
There is a difference between ordinary conventional truth and ultimate truth. The Four Noble Truths are ordinary conventional practical truths that work for us here and now. They are not ultimate truths. The paradox is not a statement about truth, it is a meta-statement dealing with statements about truth, specifically about claims to ultimate truth.

rossum
 
There is a difference between ordinary conventional truth and ultimate truth. The Four Noble Truths are ordinary conventional practical truths that work for us here and now. They are not ultimate truths. The paradox is not a statement about truth, it is a meta-statement dealing with statements about truth, specifically about claims to ultimate truth.

rossum
I don’t follow you. The Four Noble Truths were taught by Buddha after he attained enlightenment. You cannot derive them without having some connection to what is ultimately real. They are neither ordinary nor conventional. No one reading this has, or will for that matter, attain Nirvana; that it exists as a possibility can be seen only through the eyes of Faith.
 
**rossum

No it is not. There are many gods in Buddhism, including both of the Madhyamika schools arising from Nagarjuna’s writings. However, the gods are of no real importance and are mostly ignored. They exist, but only as a background feature. Most Western Buddhists ignore them.**

And how do we know these gods even exist? Is there a book of revelation? To whom was this book revealed? What evidence do we have that the book is authentic? What evidence is there the revelations are authentic?

And what defines these gods as gods if they are of no real importance?
 
And how do we know these gods even exist?
I didn’t take you for an atheist. The gods get a mention in scripture.
Is there a book of revelation? To whom was this book revealed? What evidence do we have that the book is authentic? What evidence is there the revelations are authentic?
Buddhism is not a revealed religion, it is a (re-)discovered religion. The Buddha rediscovered it, and showed us how to discover it for ourselves.
And what defines these gods as gods if they are of no real importance?
Here is one of the Buddhist gods describing himself:

“I am the Brahma, the great Brahma, the conqueror, the unconquered, the all-seeing, the subjector of all to his wishes, the omnipotent, the maker, the creator, the supreme, the controller, the one confirmed in the practice of jhana, and father to all that have been and shall be. I have created these other beings.”

– Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1

Does that being meet your definition of a god?

rossum
 
Scripture says that God “does no wrong”. Therefore, He is moral.
 
The Four Noble Truths were taught by Buddha after he attained enlightenment.
Correct.
You cannot derive them without having some connection to what is ultimately real.
The Four Noble Truths are expressed in words. Words are not, and can never be, ultimately real. At best they are a finger pointing at the moon. It is a grave error to mistake the finger for the moon.

The nun Wu Jin-cang asked the Sixth Patriach Hui-neng, “I have studied the Mahaparinirvana sutra for many years, yet there are many areas I do not quite understand. Please enlighten me.”

The patriach responded, “I am illiterate. Please read out the characters to me and perhaps I will be able to explain the meaning.”

Said the nun, “You cannot even recognize the characters. How are you able then to understand the meaning?”

“Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon’s location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?”
They are neither ordinary nor conventional.
All words are ipso facto ordinary and conventional.
No one reading this has, or will for that matter, attain Nirvana
Maybe, maybe not. People have been attaining nirvana from the time of the Buddha up until the present.
that it exists as a possibility can be seen only through the eyes of Faith.
Faith is required at the start. You need faith to believe, “this path leads to nirvana”. As you progress along the path faith is replaced by knowledge. When you attain nirvana at the end of the path then no faith is left, there is only knowledge: “this path does indeed lead to nirvana”.

rossum
 
**rossum
Code:
"I am the Brahma, the great Brahma, the conqueror, the unconquered, the all-seeing, the subjector of all to his wishes, the omnipotent, the maker, the creator, the supreme, the controller, the one confirmed in the practice of jhana, and father to all that have been and shall be. I have created these other beings."

-- Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1
Does that being meet your definition of a god?**

Very interesting! Now how does this translate into god not mattering very much? As you said earlier.

** However, the gods are of no real importance and are mostly ignored. They exist, but only as a background feature. Most Western Buddhists ignore them.**

Sounds like the Brahma at least should not be ignored. 😉
 
Very interesting! Now how does this translate into god not mattering very much?
This was Brahma talking about himself. You are very probably making an incorrect assumption about gods. Remember that Brahma was not enlightened.

rossum
 
**rossum

Remember that Brahma was not enlightened.**

Sez you! 😃
 
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