God cannot sustain the creation because he cannot know what is the current time

[Bahman]

Yes, God is changeless, but that doesn’t mean he’s not aware of His creation in its own timeline.

The parable of Matthew 21 shows God’s awareness of and changing response to his creation.
“There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard sand put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.”

Hebrews 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.”
God is sustaining our world by His Son.

I don’t understand how this parable is related to creation and this subject.

 

[Bahman]

Jesus did pretty well with the concepts of past present and future, and he is God in Trinity, therefore God ‘knows’ time! Oh yeah, and he’s GOD!

And how was the situation before Jesus.

 

[Bahman]

This reasoning is contradicted by the most element fact that creation is sustained. Ie. We exist. Therefore, if God exists then he is sustaining creation.

This is not a good reasoning.

And also God wouldn’t technically need to know what time it is to do it. Since knowing what time it is doesn’t cause anything to happen.

No, God needs to know what is the current time in order to sustain creation since only the state at the current time is actual.

God sustaining creation would not be based on what time it is or even time itself.

It is because only the state of creation at the current time is actual.

Since God is timeless and he created time.

There is no objective time. What exist outside are only form and motion. What we experience as duration is the construct of our psychological motion.

Your argument uses reasoning from arguments for a vs b theory of time. Ie. Does God know what time it is? However, the argument some proponents of a theory argues that if God is in time in relation to his creation then he would have tensed knowledge because he is all knowing. He would for instance know what time it is. However, for b theorists they could get out of this by saying God sees every moment of time at once. At any rate your question shows a lack of understanding of both positions. Since neither group claims that God doesn’t know what time it is. It seems your position holds a view that neither group claims, that God is in time and doesn’t know what time it is.

I am aware of A and B theory of time. It is however clear to me that God cannot know the current time. Please read post #16.

 

[Bahman]

I always get humor out of posts like this. You assume you know more than you do about the nature of time, change, creation, and God’s relationship with all of this to even formulate this argument.

I think I know enough to formulate this argument. What is wrong in my argument. Do you accept it?

If the goal is just to have a thought experiment and you know that this experience is profoundly limited by your reason and intellect then I can see the point in it. But if you think you are going to come to some kind of actual insight into God this way I think you greatly overestimate your own knowledge and the accumulated knowledge of humanity.

I only argue that what God isn’t. The simple message of this argument is that God cannot be changeless and sustain creation.

 

[Bahman]

God’s observation of time and his creations does not add or detract from Him.

That is the conclusion I have reached from points 1,2 and 3.

Do you agree with (4)?

 

[Bahman]

If there is a God, it’s a sure bet He ‘knows’ everything about His creation.

Someone above summed it up well -

A most illogical position to hold in a discussion about God would include ‘He cannot’ (referencing God).

Unless you are defending a double negative, say - God cannot dislike his creation.

That I would find to be true, though easier said as - God only likes (loves) his creation.

The main goal of this argument is to show that a timeless God cannot know the current time hence he could not sustain the creation. Please read post #16 for more illustration.

 

[Bahman]

No.

Just… no.

You need to make an argument.

 

[Simca]

Here there is the argument

1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
2. Current now is subject to change
3. God is changeless
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation

Yes, God is changeless, but that doesn’t mean he’s not aware of His creation in its own timeline.

The parable of Matthew 21 shows God’s awareness of and changing response to his creation.
“There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard sand put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.”

I don’t understand how this parable is related to creation and this subject.

This parable, at least to my, I guess, abstract thinking, shows how God is aware of his creation in time. God sends his servants to his people, who then kill his servants. Knowing what has happened, God responds/changes tactics and sends other servants. It happens again. Then God once again responds and sends his son. God is not only aware of his creation, but responds and changes in order to reach his creation. So I think this negates your theory number 4–and number 1 as well.

Also, I think that if God were unable to sustain his creation, why did Jesus instruct us in the Lord’s Prayer to ask God to give us our daily bread? Any time God answers prayer it shows that God is aware of his creation in time and is constantly sustaining it.

Jesus said God even knows the number of hairs on our head. God is so very aware, not only of his creation as a whole, but of each individual and the specific needs of each person. Giving each person a guardian angel shows how God specifically sustains and cares for each person he created.

 

[ffg]

The main goal of this argument is to show that a timeless God cannot know the current time hence he could not sustain the creation. Please read post #16 for more illustration.

The point of most of the responses is that your premise negates itself because a most simplistic understanding about God among all people regardless of belief is…

1. If there is a God, he can do anything a creation can think up

And 2) He knows everything about his creation, which would include time, regardless of time’s source or definition.

It should be noted I disagree with your idea of time, being something humans made ( if I read you properly).

Reading, measuring, charting are not creating.

Take care,

Mike

 

[MT1926]

1. What happened to 5? I think 5 holds the secret formula that proves God sustained creation therefore 6 is irrelevant.

Hey Bahman I found the secret formula. It is Free Will. God gave us free will, this brings me to the conclusion that God sustains our free will by making creation self sustaining. Makes perfect sense, why would God create something that he has to constantly monitor?

Think about it this way. I have been here since 5:30 am. At 6:00 am my highschool children will be waking themselves up with alarms on their phones that I provided. I don’t need to know the time nor be present for this to occur. When they get up I provided a bathroom for them to get read, closets full of cloths and a fridge full of food. I in essence set up a self sustaining environment in my home so I don’t need to know the time for it to continue.

Another example is: I have sheep in my lower fields. There is more grass there than they could eat and the water trough fills automatically. I could go on vacation for weeks and the sheep would survive, regardless if I took a watch with me on vacation or not.

If I, a mere human, can create a self sustaining environment, I am sure God is more than capable of sustaining creation without the use of a watch.

God Bless

 

[franklinstower]

I think I know enough to formulate this argument. What is wrong in my argument. Do you accept it?

I do not think we know enough about time, creation, or Gods way of being to accurately formulate any arguments at all about any of this. We would have to have much more complete knowledge of all of these terms in order to accurately define any of this. We don’t- humanity does not. Like I said if you are just having a thought experiment just for the sake of thinking then there is nothing at all wrong with any of your points as long as it is recognized that no real conclusions can be made in this way.

If you are actually seeking to have an understanding of God then this is not the best way to go about it. The way of the saints would be better suited. An ascent towards union with God to the point of having direct experience with God and possibly even with God as it is existing in creation is what is needed. Of course at this point we are talking about something more far reaching than an answer to a purely intellectual question. It may be the case and probably is that you will never get anything like a definitive answer to your questions as stated in this thread because they are self directed and may have nothing at all to do with what God would want to reveal to you…

You could come to a place so sacred though, and so intimate that your life and character are changed and filled with Gods power. You could come to a knowledge of God that is certain albeit not an intellectual knowledge but instead a knowledge that comes from experience and that is transformative— which is the whole point of God’s revelation to us.

One time in prayer I started to experince Gods power very intensely and it was coming in waves like an ocean. Over time the waves became so strong that it would force me to lay back in my chair. Finally a wave came that was so intense that I was swept out of myself completely and there was only infinite and endless blinding white “life.” I did not even know I existed at this point-- there was only endless life energy- endless and infinite God.

Then for a moment my face would poke out through the light and I could see down into creation and see and feel Gods power sustaining it and holding it in existence. Then my face would disappear back into the light and would cease to know even my own existence and know only the light again. This happened three times, the whole encounter lasted around five hours. My life was absolutely transformed by this encounter by this taste of God.

So does that experience make me qualified to define God well enough and creaton well enough to have definitive knowledge about how to define Gods sustaining of creation? Obviously the answer is no, of course not. However I think it does and has given insight into the folly of any attempt at all to intellectually define God and creation and time and then think about it in any way that is actually accurate… Having had experiences like these (and others) I just don’t think that sitting around having philosophical arguments about God has any real chance at all of coming to accurate conclusions about God.

God is something we cannot understand, but can experince. I am just suggesting that maybe what you are actually looking for is experience or if not*** maybe*** it would be a better pursuit.

If what I have written is helpful then I am grateful if not then Ill bow out of the conversation and wish you luck and success on your journey.

 

[Wesrock]

It does follow. The knowledge of a changeable thing needs changes. This can be illustrated in the following way: Consider all states of creation which God knows. Not all states of creation are actual. It is only the state of creation at current time which is actual. This means that we need a tag in this state to distinguish the state in current time from others. The position of this tag changes by time meaning that the knowledge of current state requires changes.

Who said God’s knowledge changes? The past is still NOW for God. It’s still there. The present is still NOW for God, and always will be. What will come is NOW for God, and forever will be. How he feels about each will always be present, in the NOW, and unchanging. God is outside of time. No change is required.

Even if we don’t want to go down that route, we can quite simply say that whatever changes outside of God, whatever his relationship to it then or now, neither adds or subtracts anything to that which he is, making him immutable.

 

[Wesrock]

In the picture which is provided, the state of creation is actual only at current time. God knows the rest of states of creation, but only needs to sustain the state of creation at current time which is subject to change.

You’re putting God in time. As if to him there is any such thing as a “then”.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Your logic fails because God is outside of time

 

[Wesrock]

There’s no reason to believe that an eternal being outside of time cannot know what time it is. It just means that all time is simultaneous to Him.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Do you agree with (4)?

No, I deduce that God can work in our environment without said work adding or detracting

anything from Him. Such a case is not possible for humans, but is for God. Was Jesus

changed by his work with us?

 

[Rhubarb]

Here there is the argument

1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
2. Current now is subject to change
3. God is changeless
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation

1 is not necessarily the case. I don’t need to know the state of my heart to keep it beating.

Explain 4. Because so far it’s non sequitur.

1 is already in doubt, which makes 6 doubtful. If 4 fails too, your conclusion falls apart.

Also the logic is sketchy 4 and 6. Put your lines in proper form and they might become more clear.

Also, if God is omniscient then God has all the knowledge of the state of affairs at any time in question at any time. The changing of time doesn’t matter as the knowledge of that time predates the change for God. Of sorts

 

[Bahman]

This parable, at least to my, I guess, abstract thinking, shows how God is aware of his creation in time. God sends his servants to his people, who then kill his servants. Knowing what has happened, God responds/changes tactics and sends other servants. It happens again. Then God once again responds and sends his son. God is not only aware of his creation, but responds and changes in order to reach his creation. So I think this negates your theory number 4–and number 1 as well.

Also, I think that if God were unable to sustain his creation, why did Jesus instruct us in the Lord’s Prayer to ask God to give us our daily bread? Any time God answers prayer it shows that God is aware of his creation in time and is constantly sustaining it.

Jesus said God even knows the number of hairs on our head. God is so very aware, not only of his creation as a whole, but of each individual and the specific needs of each person. Giving each person a guardian angel shows how God specifically sustains and cares for each person he created.

What you said in fact represent a God how is aware of current time. A timeless God in fact cannot know the current time.

 

[Bahman]

The point of most of the responses is that your premise negates itself because a most simplistic understanding about God among all people regardless of belief is…

That is not true. You need to give me an example of my premise which negates itself.

1. If there is a God, he can do anything a creation can think up

And 2) He knows everything about his creation, which would include time, regardless of time’s source or definition.

A timeless God cannot know what is the current time. It seems that you don’t understand my post, #16.

 

[Bahman]

Hey Bahman I found the secret formula. It is Free Will. God gave us free will, this brings me to the conclusion that God sustains our free will by making creation self sustaining. Makes perfect sense, why would God create something that he has to constantly monitor?

Think about it this way. I have been here since 5:30 am. At 6:00 am my highschool children will be waking themselves up with alarms on their phones that I provided. I don’t need to know the time nor be present for this to occur. When they get up I provided a bathroom for them to get read, closets full of cloths and a fridge full of food. I in essence set up a self sustaining environment in my home so I don’t need to know the time for it to continue.

Another example is: I have sheep in my lower fields. There is more grass there than they could eat and the water trough fills automatically. I could go on vacation for weeks and the sheep would survive, regardless if I took a watch with me on vacation or not.

If I, a mere human, can create a self sustaining environment, I am sure God is more than capable of sustaining creation without the use of a watch.

God Bless

I understand your point but that is not what Catholic believe. Catholic God in fact sustain creation through his eternal act.