God cannot sustain the creation because he cannot know what is the current time

[Bahman]

I do not think we know enough about time, creation, or Gods way of being to accurately formulate any arguments at all about any of this. We would have to have much more complete knowledge of all of these terms in order to accurately define any of this. We don’t- humanity does not. Like I said if you are just having a thought experiment just for the sake of thinking then there is nothing at all wrong with any of your points as long as it is recognized that no real conclusions can be made in this way.

I think we know enough to make an argument. Is there anything that you don’t understand in my argument?

If you are actually seeking to have an understanding of God then this is not the best way to go about it. The way of the saints would be better suited. An ascent towards union with God to the point of having direct experience with God and possibly even with God as it is existing in creation is what is needed. Of course at this point we are talking about something more far reaching than an answer to a purely intellectual question. It may be the case and probably is that you will never get anything like a definitive answer to your questions as stated in this thread because they are self directed and may have nothing at all to do with what God would want to reveal to you…

I think that my approach is suitable for me because I understand what God doesn’t look like.

 

[Bahman]

Who said God’s knowledge changes? The past is still NOW for God. It’s still there. The present is still NOW for God, and always will be. What will come is NOW for God, and forever will be. How he feels about each will always be present, in the NOW, and unchanging. God is outside of time. No change is required.

Even if we don’t want to go down that route, we can quite simply say that whatever changes outside of God, whatever his relationship to it then or now, neither adds or subtracts anything to that which he is, making him immutable.

You didn’t properly read my argument. God dwells in eternal now. He knows everything but the current time since as I argued that knowledge is subject to change.

 

[Bahman]

You’re putting God in time. As if to him there is any such thing as a “then”.

I am not putting God in time since I am arguing that knowledge of current time require a change hence God cannot know the current time therefore he cannot sustain the creation.

 

[Bahman]

Your logic fails because God is outside of time

That is exactly the problem. A timeless God cannot know the current time since all time is present to him at his eternal now.

 

[Bahman]

There’s no reason to believe that an eternal being outside of time cannot know what time it is.

How God could know what the current time is when he has the knowledge all states of creation which all present to him at his eternal now?

It just means that all time is simultaneous to Him.

That is exactly the problem. How a changeless God could know the current time when all time is simultaneous to him?

 

[Bahman]

No, I deduce that God can work in our environment without said work adding or detracting anything from Him. Such a case is not possible for humans, but is for God. Was Jesus changed by his work with us?

A timeless God cannot work in our environment without a change because he cannot know the current time which requires changes. Please read post #16 for more illustration.

 

[Bahman]

1 is not necessarily the case. I don’t need to know the state of my heart to keep it beating.

(1) is necessarily the case. The knowledge of current time is needed to sustain creation because only the state of creation at current time is actual.

Explain 4. Because so far it’s non sequitur.

Please read post #16 for more illustration.

1 is already in doubt, which makes 6 doubtful. If 4 fails too, your conclusion falls apart.

So (6) stands as (1) and (4) is correct.

Also the logic is sketchy 4 and 6. Put your lines in proper form and they might become more clear.

I hope that (4) and (6) are clear by now.

Also, if God is omniscient then God has all the knowledge of the state of affairs at any time in question at any time. The changing of time doesn’t matter as the knowledge of that time predates the change for God. Of sorts

This is already illustrated at post #16.

 

[MT1926]

I understand your point but that is not what Catholic believe. Catholic God in fact sustain creation through his eternal act.

Yes but from what I read the catechism further expands on how God sustains creation:

307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers, and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170

Which is basically what I was getting at with free will. “God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors.”

I am sure you are going to find a reason you don’t agree with this either. But we are on page 4 and you still haven’t provided any evidence that God cannot know the current time. You have provided deductions that apply to us humans in time, but you haven’t given any evidence to prove that God who is outside of time and having knowledge of all time, past present and future cannot know the current time.

God Bless

 

[1Lord1Faith]

It does follow. The knowledge of a changeable thing needs changes. This can be illustrated in the following way: Consider all states of creation which God knows. Not all states of creation are actual. It is only the state of creation at current time which is actual. This means that we need a tag in this state to distinguish the state in current time from others. The position of this tag changes by time meaning that the knowledge of current state requires changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Lord1Faith View Post
No, I deduce that God can work in our environment without said work adding or detracting anything from Him. Such a case is not possible for humans, but is for God. Was Jesus changed by his work with us?

Bahman:
A timeless God cannot work in our environment without a change because he cannot know the current time which requires changes. Please read post #16 for more illustration.

You give yourself up in post #16 when you say , “we need a tag”. We may need a tag but obviously God does not. I admit that I don’t fully comprehend God.

 

[ffg]

That is not true. You need to give me an example of my premise which negates itself.
.

God cannot.

 

[Rhubarb]

(1) is necessarily the case. The knowledge of current time is needed to sustain creation because only the state of creation at current time is actual.

What? Explain.

 

[Bahman]

Yes but from what I read the catechism further expands on how God sustains creation:

307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers, and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170

Which is basically what I was getting at with free will. “God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors.”

I am sure you are going to find a reason you don’t agree with this either. But we are on page 4 and you still haven’t provided any evidence that God cannot know the current time. You have provided deductions that apply to us humans in time, but you haven’t given any evidence to prove that God who is outside of time and having knowledge of all time, past present and future cannot know the current time.

God Bless

We can simply imagine how God see all states of creation at once, eternal now: Consider all states of creation as a movie where each frame represent a state of creation at given time. God sees all frame at once. The state at current time is one of the frames. This frame is replaced by another frame as time changes. God however sees all frame together which is problematic since the only actual state is the state at current time which is needed to be sustained.

 

[Bahman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Lord1Faith View Post
No, I deduce that God can work in our environment without said work adding or detracting anything from Him. Such a case is not possible for humans, but is for God. Was Jesus changed by his work with us?

I already have three thread running for the problem related to Jesus so let please to don’t go in that direction.

Bahman:
A timeless God cannot work in our environment without a change because he cannot know the current time which requires changes. Please read post #16 for more illustration.

You give yourself up in post #16 when you say , “we need a tag”. We may need a tag but obviously God does not. I admit that I don’t fully comprehend God.

We have a definition of God so there is nothing that we cannot understand. Moreover, that is God who need a tag on the state of creation at current time in order to distinguish it from other states of creation. We live in time and we don’t need the tag.

 

[Bahman]

God cannot.

Yes but I am providing an argument for that. God of course cannot do something which is logically impossible. I showed that a timeless God cannot possibly know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation because the knowledge of actual state needs the knowledge of current time which God cannot have.

 

[Bahman]

What? Explain.

You need to be more specific that what you don’t understand so I can explain it.

 

[ffg]

Yes but I am providing an argument for that. God of course cannot do something which is logically impossible. I showed that a timeless God cannot possibly know the current time hence he cannot sustain the creation because the knowledge of actual state needs the knowledge of current time which God cannot have.

I love analyzing like the next person, but there are ways of doing it without immediately contradicting yourself, like say claiming something about God with wording that you agree is a contradiction, then adding ‘but…’

Maybe try coming at your argument in a way that doesn’t read as creation knowing more than God, if there is a God.

 

[MT1926]

Thank you for the response. You actually answered the question in your response you just don’t see it.

We can simply imagine how God see all states of creation at once, eternal now:

I can follow this concept and agree, God sees all states of creation presently and continues to see all states eternally.

Consider all states of creation as a movie where each frame represent a state of creation at given time. God sees all frame at once.

Still following you and have no objections to this thought process.

The state at current time is one of the frames. This frame is replaced by another frame as time changes.

Agree that the current time can be seen as one of the frames. However, I disagree with the replacement because God sees all frames at once. Think of it like a 1000 piece puzzle laid out on a table. All the pieces are on the table. I can move the pieces around to build the puzzle but nothing gets replaced. I am standing above the table and can still see all of the pieces.

God however sees all frame together which is problematic since the only actual state is the state at current time which is needed to be sustained.

Just because he sees all frames at once does not mean he sees them all together. My goodness even us inferior human beings don’t do that. If the coach of my daughters basketball team is able to concentrate on the movement of all 10 players on the court in order to change plays and sustain game, what makes you think God is incapable of concentrating on more than one “frame” at a time to sustain creation?

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Here there is the argument

1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
2. Current now is subject to change
3. God is changeless
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation

I will change this “argument” with an analogous one, so that its gaps become clearer, if there is the will…

1. Creation needs to be known in its actual state to be preserved in its existence
2. The state of creation changes continuously
3. The knowledge of something is a representation of it
4. If an object changes continuously, then a true representation of it changes continuously
5. Therefore, if there is a knowledge of the actual state of creation, it changes continuously
6. God is immutable, therefore, If He knows, His knowledge is immutable
7. Therefore, God does not know the actual state of creation
8. Therefore, either there is an agent who knows and preserves creation or creation is not preserved in existence, or creation does not need to be known in order to be preserved in existence.
9. But creation still exists.
10. Therefore, either there is an agent who knows and preserves creation or creation does not need to be known in order to be preserved in existence.
11. But (1), therefore there is an agent who knows and preserves creation

 

[Vico]

Here there is the argument

1. God needs to know the state of creation at now to sustain the creation
2. Current now is subject to change
3. God is changeless
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
5. From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation

**Catechism of the Catholic Church **addresses providence and secondary causes:

Providence and secondary causes

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

**307 **To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171 Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it. Drawn from nothingness by God’s power, wisdom and goodness, it can do nothing if it is cut off from its origin, for "without a Creator the creature vanishes."172 Still less can a creature attain its ultimate end without the help of God’s grace.173

168 Cf. Gen 1:26-28.
169 Cf. Col 1:24.
170 1 Cor 3:9; 1 Thes 3:2; Col 4:11.
171 Phil 2:13; cf. 1 Cor 12:6.
172 GS 36 § 3.
173 Cf. Mt 19:26; Jn 15:5; 14:13

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Bahman:
We have a definition of God so there is nothing that we cannot understand. Moreover, that is God who need a tag on the state of creation at current time in order to distinguish it from other states of creation. We live in time and we don’t need the tag.

Ok, I’ll forget your Freudian slip of “we need a tag”.

There is something about God we cannot understand:
4) From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God cannot know the current time since the knowledge of current time is subject to change
6) From (1) and (4) we can deduce that God cannot sustain the creation

The Catholic definition of God says that He does sustain His Creation.