God cannot sustain the creation because he cannot know what is the current time

[Vico]

Because the knowledge the state of creation at current time changes. God is however changeless hence his knowledge doesn’t change. The problem is that God cannot have this knowledge since this knowledge is changes by time whereas God’s knowledge is changeless.

God is of another order than his creation and is not subject to the laws of time that his creatures are.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Because the knowledge the state of creation at current time changes. God is however changeless hence his knowledge doesn’t change. The problem is that God cannot have this knowledge since this knowledge is changes by time whereas God’s knowledge is changeless.

That would only be possibly true if God were in time. However, if God is outside of time, yet able to see and act in every moment of time of his creation all at once then his knowledge about creation would never change. In such a view what we consider to be the current time from God’s perspective would be just one point along the entire time line of creation. And each creature along that time line would consider it to be their current time.

There are some philosophers who think God is in time with relation to his creation and has knowledge of tensed facts. This would mean that God’s knowledge of what is happening does change, but they say this does not violate God’s immutability because it is not knowledge that makes one more or less perfect . they would say that not having knowledge of tensed facts would violate God’s omniscience.

 

[MT1926]

I am not talking in circle. To sustain the creation God needs to know the state of creation at current time which he cannot know because this knowledge is time dependent where God knowledge is changeless.

That is the very definition of decision. We decide and then act to reach the purposes. How could you decide if you have no purposes?

I think you need to look at your watch to see the current time because you can’t even sustain your thought process. I stick with my opinion, as I am sure others will agree, you are talking in circles. Your initial opinion was we had to know the “result” prior to acting. Once myself and several others refute your opinion, you change your statement to we need to no the “purpose”. So which one is it result or purpose?

I am open to people opinions.

That’s your opinion.

We learn from our action when the situation is not very clear but this does not apply to God because he knows everything.

Can you please define your definition of the term “everything”. Because you seem to be saying he knows everything except for the current time.

 

[Wesrock]

I am not talking in circle. To sustain the creation God needs to know the state of creation at current time which he cannot know because this knowledge is time dependent where God knowledge is changeless.

Why can’t God sustain all the frames at once in his eternal now? All the frames are there before him and individual. Why does he have to say “I will sustain this one now, that one next, this one after that… But! OH DARN! I don’t know which one is the current time!” That doesn’t make sense. They are all there, he sustains them all at once.

 

[MT1926]

Why can’t God sustain all the frames at once in his eternal now? All the frames are there before him and individual. Why does he have to say “I will sustain this one now, that one next, this one after that… But! OH DARN! I don’t know which one is the current time!” That doesn’t make sense. They are all there, he sustains them all at once.

Yep agreed:thumbsup:

 

[Bahman]

God is of another order than his creation and is not subject to the laws of time that his creatures are.

That is the problem. The question is how God could sustain creation if he is not a temporal being.

 

[Bahman]

That would only be possibly true if God were in time. However, if God is outside of time, yet able to see and act in every moment of time of his creation all at once then his knowledge about creation would never change. In such a view what we consider to be the current time from God’s perspective would be just one point along the entire time line of creation. And each creature along that time line would consider it to be their current time.

Accepting the fact that there is really a concept of outside the time, which is not true since there is no objective time, we are still dealing with a problem: God lives outside of time hence he does not have the knowledge of current time since all time are present to him. The knowledge of current time is necessary since only the state of creation at current time is actual.

There are some philosophers who think God is in time with relation to his creation and has knowledge of tensed facts. This would mean that God’s knowledge of what is happening does change, but they say this does not violate God’s immutability because it is not knowledge that makes one more or less perfect. they would say that not having knowledge of tensed facts would violate God’s omniscience.

This is a problematic position since they accept the fact that the absence of knowledge of tensed fact would violate God’s omniscience yet they argue that this knowledge does not violate God’s immutability since the knowledge of tensed fact does not make one more or less perfect.

 

[Bahman]

I think you need to look at your watch to see the current time because you can’t even sustain your thought process. I stick with my opinion, as I am sure others will agree, you are talking in circles. Your initial opinion was we had to know the “result” prior to acting. Once myself and several others refute your opinion, you change your statement to we need to no the “purpose”. So which one is it result or purpose?

We have a purpose after we decide to reach a specific result.

That’s your opinion.

Thank you.

Can you please define your definition of the term “everything”. Because you seem to be saying he knows everything except for the current time.

Everything means all things that could be known. Knowledge of current state of creation is something that God cannot have because of the reason which was discussed.

 

[Bahman]

Why can’t God sustain all the frames at once in his eternal now? All the frames are there before him and individual. Why does he have to say “I will sustain this one now, that one next, this one after that… But! OH DARN! I don’t know which one is the current time!” That doesn’t make sense. They are all there, he sustains them all at once.

Because only one state of creation is actual at current time so God needs to sustain one state at any given time. In another word God can sustain all states at his eternal now which means that all states have to be actual, where they are not.

 

[Vico]

That is the problem. The question is how God could sustain creation if he is not a temporal being.

From post #77: The primary cause does not have to manage each moment when it is delegated to a secondary cause.

 

[Wesrock]

Because only one state of creation is actual at current time so God needs to sustain one state at any given time. In another word God can sustain all states at his eternal now which means that all states have to be actual, where they are not.

All states are actual from God’s perspective. You’re position is contradictory because you are putting him in time at this juncture of the argument, but holding that he is outside at others.

 

[Bahman]

From post #77: The primary cause does not have to manage each moment when it is delegated to a secondary cause.

I don’t understand. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Bahman]

All states are actual from God’s perspective.

That is no possible. How you could have any dynamic if all states are actual from God’s perspective? God has to take care of dynamic in creation too.

You’re position is contradictory because you are putting him in time at this juncture of the argument, but holding that he is outside at others.

That is not correct. I consider God to be in timeless state. Only one of the stat of creation is actual. God knows all state of creation but he has to sustain only the state at current time. The problem is that he doesn’t have any knowledge of current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Accepting the fact that there is really a concept of outside the time, which is not true since there is no objective time, we are still dealing with a problem: God lives outside of time hence he does not have the knowledge of current time since all time are present to him. The knowledge of current time is necessary since only the state of creation at current time is actual.

No. If God was outside of time and could see all of time at once he could sustain all of time and creation at once. The notion of current time would be a bit of an illusion since all times would exist concurrently for God.

This is a problematic position since they accept the f

act that the absence of knowledge of tensed fact would violate God’s omniscience yet they argue that this knowledge does not violate God’s immutability since the knowledge of tensed fact does not make one more or less perfect.

How is it a problem? I was thinking that if God is in time relative to his creation, but he had perfect foreknowledge then he would know what was going to happen before it happened. Such that when it does happen his knowledge about that event would not have changed. The only thing that would change was that its classification would be changed from a future event to a present event and then to a past event. For instance I know it will be 3pm. When it becomes 3pm it is not a change in my knowledge that it would be 3pm. The only thing that has changed is its classification from future to present event. The only way my knowledge would change of the event is if I did not have perfect foreknowledge.

 

[Wesrock]

That is no possible. How you could have any dynamic if all states are actual from God’s perspective? God has to take care of dynamic in creation too.

That is not correct. I consider God to be in timeless state. Only one of the stat of creation is actual. God knows all state of creation but he has to sustain only the state at current time. The problem is that he doesn’t have any knowledge of current time hence he cannot sustain the creation.

If God is eternal, then all states are present before him at once. It’s not as if God is outside of our time but he has some separate, higher dimension of time he acts within. He is not a higher dimensional being, holding in his hands all four we experience but experiencing the other ones on himself. Eternal means there is only one now for him. All states are present to him. He knows each fully because each are in being. He knows how they are related. **God does not act in a temporal sequence as we do. **To him, he didn’t give the law to Moses in a different NOW (to him) than when he made his covenant with Abraham. Any point in time that has been, is, and will be (from our perspective) is all concurrent to him, though he of course knows the order of all moments. It’s not that he knows them before they happen, it’s just that to him anything that ever says I AM is known to him, and as a non-temporal being this all exists in one eternal NOW.

Please explain why this is not possible? Or can God only focus on one thing at once?

 

[Bahman]

No. If God was outside of time and could see all of time at once he could sustain all of time and creation at once. The notion of current time would be a bit of an illusion since all times would exist concurrently for God.

That is exactly the problem “all times would exist concurrently for God”. God cannot sustain the creation because all times are present to him at once. This is a problem because only one of the states of creation is actual.

How is it a problem? I was thinking that if God is in time relative to his creation, but he had perfect foreknowledge then he would know what was going to happen before it happened. Such that when it does happen his knowledge about that event would not have changed. The only thing that would change was that its classification would be changed from a future event to a present event and then to a past event. For instance I know it will be 3pm. When it becomes 3pm it is not a change in my knowledge that it would be 3pm. The only thing that has changed is its classification from future to present event. The only way my knowledge would change of the event is if I did not have perfect foreknowledge.

I was arguing that there is a conflict in that paragraph. In one hand, God omniscience is incomplete if he doesn’t have the knowledge of tensed fact. In another hand you mentioned that the knowledge of tense fact does not add anything to something which is perfect.

 

[Wesrock]

This is a problem because only one of the states of creation is actual.

At a given time. Only one state of creation can be actual at a given time.

If there is no time, how can something not be, be, then not be again? That is a temporal sequence of events.

 

[Wesrock]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Even ignoring my other argument for the moment, if only one state (not sure we should be referring to discrete states, but for argument) is actual, then why would God need to know the time? He just needs to sustain the one that is actual. It being actual and all others being not actual is itself a flag on that state of creation that it needs to be sustained.

 

[Bahman]

If God is eternal, then all states are present before him at once. It’s not as if God is outside of our time but he has some separate, higher dimension of time he acts within. He is not a higher dimensional being, holding in his hands all four we experience but experiencing the other ones on himself. Eternal means there is only one now for him. All states are present to him. He knows each fully because each are in being. He knows how they are related. **God does not act in a temporal sequence as we do. **To him, he didn’t give the law to Moses in a different NOW (to him) than when he made his covenant with Abraham. Any point in time that has been, is, and will be (from our perspective) is all concurrent to him, though he of course knows the order of all moments. It’s not that he knows them before they happen, it’s just that to him anything that ever says I AM is known to him, and as a non-temporal being this all exists in one eternal NOW.

Please explain why this is not possible? Or can God only focus on one thing at once?

As it was stated God knows all states of creation at once. God however needs to sustain only one state at current time which is the only actual state. We could not have any dynamic in creation if all states are sustained at once in God perspective. This is true because all states of creation should always exist in our perspective which is problematic.

 

[Bahman]

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

I am not contradicting myself.

Even ignoring my other argument for the moment, if only one state (not sure we should be referring to discrete states, but for argument) is actual, then why would God need to know the time?

He just needs to sustain the one that is actual. It being actual and all others being not actual is itself a flag on that state of creation that it needs to be sustained.

God needs to know the time because otherwise we cannot have the proper dynamic for motion of creation.