God cannot sustain the creation because he cannot know what is the current time

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So you continue to assert without any evidence to support the claim.
I already made an argument for this, so I repeat: God in state of timeless has the knowledge of all states of creation. Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective. This means that God needs to have extra knowledge, current time, for sustaining the creation. This knowledge however changes which means that God cannot have this knowledge hence he cannot sustain the creation.
 
You posted “First argument: All states of creation are actual from God perspective. Only one of this state is actual in temporal perspective.”

Since the flow of time is illusory, there is no objective present. So the first argument does not apply to Theory B.
I am not talking about present in the first argument.
 
I already made an argument for this, so I repeat:
  1. God in state of -]timeless/-] eternity has the knowledge of all states of creation in time – past, present and future.
  2. Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective.
    2a) All the temporal states past, present and future are actual in eternity.
    3 )This means that God does not need-]s/-] to have extra knowledge-], current time,/-] about the present for sustaining the creation.
  3. This future knowledge however changes in the temporal perspective which means that God -]cannot have/-] has this knowledge
  4. hence he -]cannot/-] sustains the creation in the past, present and future.
 
I already made an argument for this, so I repeat: God in state of timeless has the knowledge of all states of creation. Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective. This means that God needs to have extra knowledge, current time, for sustaining the creation. This knowledge however changes which means that God cannot have this knowledge hence he cannot sustain the creation.
Just curious where does an omniscient (all knowing) being find this “extra knowledge”? Doesn’t the definition of omniscient mean “the capacity to know everything that there is to know”?

Once again, we see your argument, but you have yet to give us a reason why an all knowing being can’t have the knowledge, just because he isn’t in time isn’t a good enough reason. Where is the scientific evidence to back up your assumption? Or even any scientific work trying to prove this? Basically you are saying you are allowed to make up assumptions and we are not allowed to say God is omniscient.
 
I am not talking about present in the first argument.
You wrote: “Only one of this state is actual in temporal perspective.”

Since the flow of time is illusory, there is no objective temporal perspective. So the first argument does not apply to Theory B.
 
I already made an argument for this, so I repeat: God in state of timeless has the knowledge of all states of creation. Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective. This means that God needs to have extra knowledge, current time, for sustaining the creation. This knowledge however changes which means that God cannot have this knowledge hence he cannot sustain the creation.
The issue here is that you are thinking on such a small scale that it’s hindering you from grasping a simple idea that points to something more powerful than anything that can be imagined. So powerful, in fact, that power and imagination (both confined by time) themselves exist because God chooses to hold them in existence. We cannot possibly understand, because there are so many things that our human incapable of understanding. It’s not in our nature to understand in this world. More will be revealed to us in the Beatific Vision, but even then, we are limited in relation to God so much so that merely beholding the raw Nature of God would end your life on earth. You cannot define God on your terms, because your terms cannot hold God. The term “current time” is entirely irrelevant to God because He holds all of time. Saying He doesn’t know an aspect about time is to state the impossible, and only highlights our comparatively puny nature.
 
I already made an argument for this, so I repeat: God in state of timeless has the knowledge of all states of creation. Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective. This means that God needs to have extra knowledge, current time, for sustaining the creation. This knowledge however changes which means that God cannot have this knowledge hence he cannot sustain the creation.
Aside from your seeming lack of appreciation of the block time of general relativity, you also seem unacquainted with the work of Julian Barbour.

One poster made a Barbour-esque post in the early pages of this thread:
What is “current time” to someone outside time? If I have a copy of Star Wars on my table, what time is it to Luke? It’s all times to “all Lukes”. “Each Luke” just perceives his own time.
And, even more egregiously, you seem not to know one of the signal facts about the nature differential equations:
Only one of these state is actual at current time in temporal perspective. This means that God needs to have extra knowledge, current time, for sustaining the creation.
No, just no. Knowledge of even the most minute and infinitesimal part of the solution of a differential equation (or system of differential equations) suffices for a complete description of the whole.

Differential equations are the heart and soul of the language of physics. If you can’t do those, you can’t do physics, and thus for you, I’m afraid the subject of time is out of bounds. Sorry.
 
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o_mlly:
God is in state of timeless hence he does not have the knowledge of tensed facts.
 
Just curious where does an omniscient (all knowing) being find this “extra knowledge”? Doesn’t the definition of omniscient mean “the capacity to know everything that there is to know”?
That is correct. An omniscient being could know everything if he is not bound within timeless framework and he is changeable. The knowledge of tensed fact changes so God cannot have it.
Once again, we see your argument, but you have yet to give us a reason why an all knowing being can’t have the knowledge, just because he isn’t in time isn’t a good enough reason.
The fact that God is outside of time provide a valid argument that he cannot know the knowledge of changeable things.
Where is the scientific evidence to back up your assumption? Or even any scientific work trying to prove this? Basically you are saying you are allowed to make up assumptions and we are not allowed to say God is omniscient.
You can assume that God is omniscient so he could know everything including the knowledge of changeable things unless you assume that God is changeless.
 
You wrote: “Only one of this state is actual in temporal perspective.”
Yes.
Since the flow of time is illusory, there is no objective temporal perspective. So the first argument does not apply to Theory B.
I didn’t assume that time is real. I just said that one of the state is actual and it changes. You can have changes in B theory of time.
 
The issue here is that you are thinking on such a small scale that it’s hindering you from grasping a simple idea that points to something more powerful than anything that can be imagined. So powerful, in fact, that power and imagination (both confined by time) themselves exist because God chooses to hold them in existence. We cannot possibly understand, because there are so many things that our human incapable of understanding. It’s not in our nature to understand in this world. More will be revealed to us in the Beatific Vision, but even then, we are limited in relation to God so much so that merely beholding the raw Nature of God would end your life on earth. You cannot define God on your terms, because your terms cannot hold God. The term “current time” is entirely irrelevant to God because He holds all of time. Saying He doesn’t know an aspect about time is to state the impossible, and only highlights our comparatively puny nature.
I can still argue based on facts that I understand. In fact we can say a lot.
 
Yes.

I didn’t assume that time is real. I just said that one of the state is actual and it changes. You can have changes in B theory of time.
There are no real changes, so no change is what is real, God.
 
That is correct. An omniscient being could know everything if he is not bound within timeless framework and he is changeable. The knowledge of tensed fact changes so God cannot have it.
I think this is the point I can not grasp. Maybe you could explain it further in another way. How exactly is God bound within a timeless framework? We believe Jesus is God (Trinity), therefore he has proven he is not bound within a timeless framework when he came to earth. That is the part I fail to understand.
The fact that God is outside of time provide a valid argument that he cannot know the knowledge of changeable things.
Still don’t get it. In my mind someone that is on the outside looking in over the entire room has a much clearer picture than someone that is on the inside looking around the room.
You can assume that God is omniscient so he could know everything including the knowledge of changeable things unless you assume that God is changeless.
Did you mean “can’t” and I would ask why? Also, what do you mean by changeless?
 
I don’t understand you.
The B-theory of time, also called the static theory, implies that a property of occurring in the past now or future is a subjective relation between the event and us. It makes reference to our own perspective on the world. There are no objective distinctions among past, present and future.

God is timeless and essentially omniscient so God’s state of knowledge must be unchanging. Since God is the perfect knower, knowing just what is true, God knows all history at once from all eternity, which means all history must be realized at once from a timeless perspective, which is what the B-theory of time states.
 
I think this is the point I can not grasp. Maybe you could explain it further in another way.
We can divide any knowledge into changeable and changeless. The knowledge of state of creation is changeable whereas the knowledge who I am is changeless. God cannot have the knowledge of changeable things knowing the fact that he is changeless and the knowledge is changeable.
How exactly is God bound within a timeless framework?
He dwells in timeless framework.
We believe Jesus is God (Trinity), therefore he has proven he is not bound within a timeless framework when he came to earth. That is the part I fail to understand.
That as you noticed is a serious problem. Jesus for example cannot decide as a human being since he is divine and he knows what he is supposed to do.
Still don’t get it. In my mind someone that is on the outside looking in over the entire room has a much clearer picture than someone that is on the inside looking around the room.
That is not a good analogy.
Did you mean “can’t” and I would ask why? Also, what do you mean by changeless?
By changeless I mean something without change.
 
The B-theory of time, also called the static theory, implies that a property of occurring in the past now or future is a subjective relation between the event and us. It makes reference to our own perspective on the world. There are no objective distinctions among past, present and future.

God is timeless and essentially omniscient so God’s state of knowledge must be unchanging. Since God is the perfect knower, knowing just what is true, God knows all history at once from all eternity, which means all history must be realized at once from a timeless perspective, which is what the B-theory of time states.
Striving to B theory of time does not resolve the problem: All states of creation are actual in God’s perspective whereas only one of the state is actual in our perspective.
 
We can divide any knowledge into changeable and changeless. The knowledge of state of creation is changeable whereas the knowledge who I am is changeless. God cannot have the knowledge of changeable things knowing the fact that he is changeless and the knowledge is changeable.
Sorry I just don’t get it. Could someone else, as well as Bahman, please respond to this and show me the error of my ways.

Now I agree the state of creation is changeable to us, but how is the state of creation changeable to God?

If creation needs to change say a gazillion times to be sustained and God already has seen and knows, basically has experienced, everyone of these changes, how can he not sustain them? If I know by heart every step of the instruction manual, do I need to read and concentrate on every step to keep the car running or build the widget?

Are we placing ourselves in a bubble that God is unable to penetrate? And why can’t he penetrate the bubble? He already has in the form of Jesus.

The Bible speaks of many times God has sent an Angel to earth to bring us a message. Who can say he doesn’t also do that to sustain creation, if he had to that is, I don’t think he does. I mean if all else fails if I were God and was “stuck” in the timeless realm I would just send my angels to earth to bring me back real time updates. 😃 Yeah that’s how I would do it. 👍
 
Striving to B theory of time does not resolve the problem: All states of creation are actual in God’s perspective whereas only one of the state is actual in our perspective.
That makes no sense with respect to b-theory of time in which creation is static, a four dimensional world, which is both timeless and changeless.
 
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