God created evil

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You misunderstand the point.

Creatures are ontologically good (good in their being). That is what is meant by the statement “everything that God created is good.”

God created creatures with free will. Free will is naturally ordered to doing the good. IOW so long as we choose the good we are free.

If we choose to do evil, we are abusing free will, therefore we are not free.

God created creatures who in fact do evil by the abuse of free will.

Therefore, indirectly, God created evil by creating creatures with free will who abuse it.

All of this follows from Aquinas himself.
I disagree profoundly. Evil is the absence of good, it is the absence of what should be there, consequently it is non-being. Which is essentially the position of Thomas Aquinas and the Church. And God creates only being, even he cannot create non-being.

Linus2nd
 
I disagree profoundly. Evil is the absence of good, it is the absence of what should be there, consequently it is non-being. Which is essentially the position of Thomas Aquinas and the Church. And God creates only being, even he cannot create non-being.

Linus2nd
Yes, but created beings cannot create non-being either. So does that mean they can only detract from being-where God would never do so? Or is evil already in some capacity the result, relatively speaking, of their less-than perfect “beingness”, due to their dependency on God for their being? I’m sure that’s a stretch theologically but the question, “Where does evil come from?” isn’t so easy to answer either it seems.
 
I disagree profoundly. Evil is the absence of good, it is the absence of what should be there, consequently it is non-being. Which is essentially the position of Thomas Aquinas and the Church. And God creates only being, even he cannot create non-being.

Linus2nd
God does create being. But that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong.

Evil is the absence of good of a being of its kind.

God cannot be evil or directly create evil because He is Being in its fullness.

God created man and angels.

Both angels and man sinned through moral evil.

God created angels and man He also possessed the foreknowledge of Original Sin and created the possibility of both angels and man to abuse their free will and do evil,

Thus God (indirectly) created evil.

I don’t understand what is so controversial about this.
 
"You say that it is “fallacious” but fail to point out the fallacy. What fallacy are you referring to? "

The fallacy is that God indirectly created evil when He created Man. It might sound good to you but is deceptive and false reasoning.

For eg, If my son commits a crime and I say it was I who did it. I will be arrested and taken to court. In court they discover it was my son who did the deed. The judge asks why I lied and I reply, "Well, I meant that I indirectly committed the crime because I created my son in the first place.

Do you see how ridiculous it is?
 
I must also point out that you are in effect saying God is unable to clearly express Himself and depends on you to explain what He really means to say in Isiah 45:7.

Why not just accept that He is infact quite capable of expressing Himself and make perfectly clear what He means to say.

Tom
 
"You say that it is “fallacious” but fail to point out the fallacy. What fallacy are you referring to? "

The fallacy is that God indirectly created evil when He created Man. It might sound good to you but is deceptive and false reasoning.
So you don’t have any formal or informal fallacy to charge me with other than it is your opinion that I am wrong.
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Tomkins10:
For eg, If my son commits a crime and I say it was I who did it. I will be arrested and taken to court. In court they discover it was my son who did the deed. The judge asks why I lied and I reply, "Well, I meant that I indirectly committed the crime because I created my son in the first place.

Do you see how ridiculous it is?
It’s not ridiculous at all. You’re confusing an instance of positive law with natural law.

IOW, because of the solidarity which you share with your son, (he is in fact your son), you cannot help but perceive a certain sense of complicity in the crime that your son committed because you begat him, even though you didn’t collaborate or commit the crime yourself. You’d feel guilty and you would feel that you must do what you could to repair the damage done by your son.

Now is God less of a Father or more of a Father?

Do you understand the difference now?
 
“So you don’t have any formal or informal fallacy to charge me with other than it is your opinion that I am wrong.”

There is no formal or informal fallacy. It simply means a weak argument and that is all I’m stating. Your explanation as to what God actually meant is unsound at best and deceptive at worst. Yes, it is my opinion just as much as your reply is your opinion.

Please see definition below:
  1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.
a misleading or unsound argument.
3.
deceptive, misleading, or false nature
4.
Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.
 
I must also point out that you are in effect saying God is unable. to clearly express Himself and depends on you to explain what He really means to say in Isiah 45:7.

Why not just accept that He is infact quite capable of expressing Himself and make perfectly clear what He means to say.

Tom
That is a fallacy, its called a “non-sequitur”.

Your view follows from the protestant notion that the Bible is simple and easily understood.

Christianity has always maintained that the Bible cannot be properly understood apart from the tradition from which it came.

God is quite clear in regards to what He said through Isaiah, the reason why it’s difficult for you to understand is because you are reading through a lense which is not consistent with the understanding from which the statement came.
 
There is no formal or informal fallacy. It simply means a weak argument and that is all I’m stating. Your explanation as to what God actually meant is unsound at best and deceptive at worst. Yes, it is my opinion just as much as your reply is your opinion.

Please see definition below:
  1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.
a misleading or unsound argument.
3.
deceptive, misleading, or false nature
4.
Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.
You apparently have no training in logic. A fallacy is a general term and they are subdivided into several categories, you can see this here.

You claim that my argument is weak, but all you have based this on are confusions and non-sequiturs.

You haven’t pointed out an ambiguous term, a false premise, or an invalid conclusion. What you have provided are examples that fail to address my argument.

If you would be so kind please point out what the fallacy is and where.

If you can’t you’re simply begging the question(which is another fallacy).
 
I must also point out that you are in effect saying God is unable to clearly express Himself and depends on you to explain what He really means to say in Isaiah 45:7.

Why not just accept that He is infact quite capable of expressing Himself and make perfectly clear what He means to say.

Tom
If it is so clear, why are there so many disagreements on it? How come so many people did not and still do not see the prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus?

I believe the idea that people today can pick up a text 2,740 years old (and older), read through it as if it were written yesterday (In our time and through our cultural lens) and completely understand it is wrong. None would do that with any other historical text and especially not one that is 2,740 years old and older. The Bible seems to be the only text people feel okay to do that with imho.

May I ask Tomkins10 are you a Calvinist?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Free will means that we *could *help it; sin is not inevitable. Adam & Eve had no excuse to break-they had everything in Eden. Their wills were being tested, and God considers the test worth it-since the idea is to lead us back to Him, from Whom humanity has departed, where ultimately every tear shall be wiped away. Hell is only for those who freely, persistently, choose it, choose to oppose goodness/love. We have time here to work out our choice.
Free will can either help avoiding sin when we are not imperfect or it cannot. We could be perfect if it could help which is contrary to assumption that we are imperfect.
 
Free will can either help avoiding sin when we are not imperfect or it cannot. We could be perfect if it could help which is contrary to assumption that we are imperfect.
Would you care to clarify?
 
Would you care to clarify?
This depends very much how do you define imperfection and free will. We have to first understand that free will is a neutral thing meaning that it cannot favor good or bad/sin otherwise we are granted a thing which bias our decision. Perfection is defined as ability to resist bad/sin under any circumstances no matter how hard is the situation hence the ability to resist should be boundless. Imperfection is contrary to perfection meaning that sin is unavoidable give a very specific circumstances and it is avoidable otherwise. This means that circumstances and level of imperfection define the outcome of situation not free will. We in fact don’t exercise our free will but our perfection.

Now consider that person is imposed to a situation by God, such as Adam and Eve, knowing the fact that they are imperfect and they will do sin given the circumstances. Who is responsible for sin? The person or God?
 
This depends very much how do you define imperfection and free will. We have to first understand that free will is a neutral thing meaning that it cannot favor good or bad/sin otherwise we are granted a thing which bias our decision.
The problem with your definition is that a will which sins does so not out of freedom but from some disordered attachment to some thing.

OTOH we are free when we are acting according to our purposes and ends and are not attached to anything. To do the good is not merely a bias but a basic understanding of morality.

So free will cannot be a “neutral thing”.
Bachman:
Perfection is defined as ability to resist bad/sin under any circumstances no matter how hard is the situation hence the ability to resist should be boundless. Imperfection is contrary to perfection meaning that sin is unavoidable give a very specific circumstances and it is avoidable otherwise. This means that circumstances and level of imperfection define the outcome of situation not free will. We in fact don’t exercise our free will but our perfection.
What you even mean by “exercising…our perfection” is at best ambiguous. Perfection necessarily must involve the will. And in order for the will to get there it must be free.

Even in our state of imperfection while temptation is unavoidable due to concupiscience, to act in favor of the perceived good sought in the temptation (I.e. to sin) is completely avoidable by the proper use of free will despite whatever state of imperfection we may possess.

Now consider that person is imposed to a situation by God, such as Adam and Eve, knowing the fact that they are imperfect and they will do sin given the circumstances. Who is responsible for sin? The person or God?
 
I must also point out that you are in effect saying God is unable to clearly express Himself and depends on you to explain what He really means to say in Isiah 45:7.

Why not just accept that He is infact quite capable of expressing Himself and make perfectly clear what He means to say.

Tom
People either accept or reject what is clearly stated in this passage based on their view of God. This is one of the reasons I have always been more than a bit suspicious of philosophy/philosophers. They utilize high-sounding terminology, often incorrectly, in an effort to make the interpretation of an event or statement sound like fact.

I do not believe in the God of the bible, but, if I am wrong, I agree with you that he would be more than capable of making Himself understood. If not, He would be sowing confusion among His people…not a very God-like attribute.

John
 
Hey people, you’re arguing about why God did not create evil, yet none of you seem to realise that God actually states that he created evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Why don’t you address this verse. After all they are God’s very own words, aren’t they?

Tom
As St Thomas Aquinas points out, the above passage refers to God as being the author of the evil of penalty or punishment which is according to the order of His justice because God is the ruler, governor, and king of the universe. It does not refer to the evil of fault or sin which only comes from the creature.
 
People either accept or reject what is clearly stated in this passage based on their view of God. This is one of the reasons I have always been more than a bit suspicious of philosophy/philosophers. They utilize high-sounding terminology, often incorrectly, in an effort to make the interpretation of an event or statement sound like fact.
There is a problem when the NKJV uses an unqualified term such as “evil”.

Isaiah 45:7 from the RSV:
[7] I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.

From the NAB:
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Hence the many problems with unqualified interpretation and the confusion of Protestantism.
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oldcelt:
I do not believe in the God of the bible, but, if I am wrong, I agree with you that he would be more than capable of making Himself understood. If not, He would be sowing confusion among His people…not a very God-like attribute.
And you ought to know from your Catholic training that is the reason for the existence of the Church, the Church is how He makes Himself understood.

“[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”(1 Peter 1:20-21)
 
As St Thomas Aquinas points out, the above passage refers to God as being the author of the evil of penalty or punishment which is according to the order of His justice because God is the ruler, governor, and king of the universe. It does not refer to the evil of fault or sin which only comes from the creature.
IOW, physical evil permitted, not moral evil committed.
 
As St Thomas Aquinas points out, the above passage refers to God as being the author of the evil of penalty or punishment which is according to the order of His justice because God is the ruler, governor, and king of the universe. It does not refer to the evil of fault or sin which only comes from the creature.
Since when is a penalty evil? I know that Aquinas is highly admired, to say the least, on this board, bit I think he is making a major stretch to get the language to conform to his beliefs. It is a common human trait that I’m sure all of us are guilty of at one time or another.

So far as the creature, the Christian God created that creature, and being omniscient, knew that it would be evil. Therefore, He knowingly created evil.
 
So far as the creature, the Christian God created that creature, and being omniscient, knew that it would be evil. Therefore, He knowingly created evil.
And knowingly and simultaneously created the remedy to that evil.
 
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