God created evil

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Hey people, you’re arguing about why God did not create evil, yet none of you seem to realise that God actually states that he created evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Why don’t you address this verse. After all they are God’s own very words, aren’t they?

Tom
 
Hey people, you’re arguing about why God did not create evil, yet none of you seem to realise that God actually states that he created evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Why don’t you address this verse. After all they are God’s very own words, aren’t they?

Tom
 
Tomkins10 said:
Hey people, you’re arguing about why God did not create evil, yet none of you seem to realise that God actually states that he created evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Why don’t you address this verse. After all they are God’s very own words, aren’t they?

Tom
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Inconveniences like that are always a misunderstanding on our part according to many here. Simple logic usually is too.
 
God “created evil” because He created creatures with free will.

Bottom line: God paid the price for the disobedience of men by His passion and death, so you can’t act as if God is some distant or aloof deity unfamiliar with the suffering of His creatures.
 
Amandil said:
God “created evil” because He created creatures with free will.

Bottom line: God paid the price for the disobedience of men by His passion and death, so you can’t act as if God is some distant or aloof deity unfamiliar with the suffering of His creatures.
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God created nothing that is evil. God is perfectly Good, therefore he cannot create evil. See Thomas Aquinas. Also, the Catechism.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
God created nothing that is evil. God is perfectly good, therefore he cannot cretate evil. See Thomas Aquinas. Also, the Catechism.

Linus2nd
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You misunderstand the point.

Creatures are ontologically good (good in their being). That is what is meant by the statement “everything that God created is good.”

God created creatures with free will. Free will is naturally ordered to doing the good. IOW so long as we choose the good we are free.

If we choose to do evil, we are abusing free will, therefore we are not free.

God created creatures who in fact do evil by the abuse of free will.

Therefore, indirectly, God created evil by creating creatures with free will who abuse it.

All of this follows from Aquinas himself.
 
“God created creatures who in fact do evil by the abuse of free will”

So what you’re saying is God did not actually create evil. He did not create man evil.
Man created evil (by his abuse of freewill)

So why the heck then does God take credit for it in Isaiah 45:7?
 
Tomkins10 said:
“God created creatures in fact do evil by the abuse of free will”

So what you’re saying is God did not actually create evil. He did not create man evil.
Man created evil (by his abuse of freewill)

So why the heck then does God take credit for it in Isaiah 45:7?
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How can He not? He is the source of all things, He’s merely stating a matter of fact.

But the difference is that He makes all things good. Even the evil we commit in the end spites itself and only redounds to His greater glory, so He has no reason to balk at the fact of evil either.
 
He has no reason to balk at the fact of evil either.
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Mate, there is a difference between accepting the fact of evil and claiming direct authorship of it.

For eg: I have no choice but to accept the fact of evil, but if I claimed to be the creator of it, then that is something else.

Your notion that God only meant to say He indirectly created evil is fallacious. By the same method of interpretation, one could say God also only indirectly created good. See how farcical the whole thing becomes.

Tom
 
Tomkins10 said:
Mate, there is a difference between accepting the fact of evil and claiming direct authorship of it.
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And the difference is obvious in what I presented. I don’t understand why you have a problem.

Sure it can sound paradoxical, but paradoxes are only apparent contradictions, not actual contradictions.
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Tomkins10:
For eg: I have no choice but to accept the fact of evil, but if I claimed to be the creator of it, then that is something else.

Your notion that God only meant to say He indirectly created evil is fallacious. By the same method of interpretation, one could say God also only indirectly created good. See how farcical the whole thing becomes.

Tom
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You say that it is “fallacious” but fail to point out the fallacy. What fallacy are you referring to?

Secondly evil does not exist as a thing or entity. So your comments don’t follow.

Go back to Genesis 1 & 2 with the question “What is good?”.
 
Amandil said:
You misunderstand the point.

Creatures are ontologically good (good in their being). That is what is meant by the statement “everything that God created is good.”

God created creatures with free will. Free will is naturally ordered to doing the good. IOW so long as we choose the good we are free.

If we choose to do evil, we are abusing free will, therefore we are not free.

God created creatures who in fact do evil by the abuse of free will.

Therefore, indirectly, God created evil by creating creatures with free will who abuse it.

All of this follows from Aquinas himself.
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Then add foreknowledge to the equation and what do you get?
 
oldcelt said:
Then add foreknowledge to the equation and what do you get?
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Foreknowledge of free choices. Do we have free will? Does God choose not to interfere with our decisions, IOW? Is it possible for Him not to know those decisions in advance nonetheless?
 
oldcelt said:
Then add foreknowledge to the equation and what do you get?
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Your false premise.

To know someone is going to do a thing is not to make him do it.

Of course this makes no sense to you because you experience life as potentiality to actuality, cause to effect; some things to you are as “past”, other things as “present”, and there is the unknown “future”.

God is obviously bound by such limitations but sees all time as His ever-present “now”. That is the nature of His foreknowledge and how from eternity He coordinates all human choices to His divine providence.

Boethius suggested as much in his definition of eternity: “Life without limits, possessed perfectly and as a simultaneous whole.”
 
Bahman said:
Free will cannot contradict omniscience/foreknowledge hence creation has to stay good if God state that creation is good.
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But creation doesn’t have to stay good, regardless of foreknowledge, thus free will is true.
 
fhansen said:
But creation doesn’t have to stay good, regardless of foreknowledge, thus free will is true.
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And what caused the Satan fall? Creatures were created good, state of affair is also good, but suddenly something evil happens! Doesn’t it seem that there is something illogical here?
 
Bahman said:
Free will cannot contradict omniscience/foreknowledge hence creation has to stay good if God state that creation is good.
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Paraphrased from C.S. Lewis' book 'Mere Christianity':
Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth it…

If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will - that is, for making a live world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings - then we may take it it is worth paying.
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Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Bahman said:
And what caused the Satan fall? Creatures were created good, state of affair is also good, but suddenly something evil happens! Doesn’t it seem that there is something illogical here?
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All creation is good but still imperfect relative to God. Only to the extent that creation remains in communion with God, in line with His will, does creation remain just. But free will gives created beings such as man and angels the freedom to deny/oppose His will. Our perfection comes as we begin to agree with Him, to align with His will, to enter communion with God.
 
fhansen said:
All creation is good but still imperfect relative to God. Only to the extent that creation remains in communion with God, in line with His will, does creation remain just. But free will gives created beings such as man and angels the freedom to deny/oppose His will. Our perfection comes as we begin to agree with Him, to align with His will, to enter communion with God.
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Yes. Imperfection is the answer but it doesn’t resolve any problem since it is the cause of the problem following this argument: Who is responsible for this imperfection? God. Did God know that this imperfection would lead to evil? Yes. This means that God is responsible for evil since we couldn’t possibly help it. Simple, everybody has a break point depending on situation. The main question is then why anyone who commit evil should end up into hell knowing that we couldn’t possibly help the situation knowing that we are imperfect.
 
Bahman said:
Yes. Imperfection is the answer but it doesn’t resolve any problem since it is the cause of the problem following this argument: Who is responsible for this imperfection? God. Did God know that this imperfection would lead to evil? Yes. This means that God is responsible for evil since we couldn’t possibly help it. Simple, everybody has a break point depending on situation. The main question is then why anyone who commit evil should end up into hell knowing that we couldn’t possibly help the situation knowing that we are imperfect.
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Free will means that we *could *help it; sin is not inevitable. Adam & Eve had no excuse to break-they had everything in Eden. Their wills were being tested, and God considers the test worth it-since the idea is to lead us back to Him, from Whom humanity has departed, where ultimately every tear shall be wiped away. Hell is only for those who freely, persistently, choose it, choose to oppose goodness/love. We have time here to work out our choice.
 
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