God created evil

[oldcelt]

Thank you, Aloysium. It is very clear. And it appears just as clear now, when you say it, as it did when Tony said it.

You are saying that before someone is born, God knows nothing of the choices that they will make. Do you not agree that all future events are dependant on the free choices of the people involved in those events?

It therefore follows that, according to your view as expressed above, God has no knowledge of events that take place a short time into the future.

You are stating that God, who it might seem lives outside time, is restricted to knowing what is happening within present time and what has happened in past time but not will happen in future time. So everything that does happen will be as much of a surprise to Him as it is to us.

They have several problems Bradski…omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. They’ll dance around their own beliefs when logical people call them on it…but that is all they can do.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . That said, in my relationship with God there is no need for justice, because I seek nothing from God that I do not already have, nor does God seek anything from me that God does not already have. What use is there of justice where there is no want? . . .

What came to mind is the very comfortable relationship you describe with God.
In such situations, we find ourselves frequently jolted out of what is actually complacency.
I am not saying this is your situation. I am speaking generally as this is a public forum.
However, I will pray (. . . lead us not into temptation . . .) that you do not learn about the true nature of justice the hard way - as Abel.

Gen 4:10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

We tend to know it as Cain did, leading us to guilt feelings we do not like. This can lead us away from God. As Abel, we cry out to Him in our pain.

 

[Richca]

Also, to follow up on Bradski’s observation, there appears to be some dissonance amongst the Catholics on this matter. Amandil fervently insists that God’s perspective is timeless, so whether or not something has occurred, is occurring, or will occur has no impact on whether or not God knows about it. Tonyrey suggests that at least some future events are unknown, provided that they will occur due to the intervention of an as of yet non-existent person acting freely.

So which is it? Does God’s knowledge change over time or not?

By one act of His intellect and from all eternity, God knows everything that He knows including everything that takes place in time in His creation. His eternity encompasses the whole course of time as being present to Him and not as future for there is no future nor past in God but an ever abiding present. God is absolutely immutable. His knowledge does not change.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Unless someone is created, there is nothing to be known of them, they are fictional unless they are real at some point in time.

Good Evening Aloysium: I pointed out before that in Jeremiah, it is written that " I knew you before you were in the womb."

As Catholics, we often get ourselves into credibility problems with others because we make excuses for an iteration of God that simply doesn’t and never did exist. Because the real God is probably nothing like the character in the lore of the Old Testament, and in truth, the Catholic Church does not officially support a literal interpretation of the book Genesis. And it is only in such literal interpretations that we run into logical problems in discussions with those who believe differently, especially when they start asking the hard questions. Because the men who wrote the Old Testament never had to stand up to hard questions, and in fact what they wrote is largely only a cultural tradition, and a rather primitive one in comparison with others from the Axial Age. And the Church wisely does not place its largent on any literal understanding of it.

Thank you.
Gary

 

[Aloysium]

. . . You are saying that before someone is born, God knows nothing of the choices that they will make. . .

There is no “before” for God. He is everywhere and in every moment as the one Being who creates all time and all things. No before and no after - it is all Now.

I’m going to dive into more eastern images here.
This analogy can only be taken so far, but it does describe aspects of the relationship between time and eternity.
Imagine a cosmic wheel that includes all time. You can think of God as the axel and creation as the rim.
Your birth and death are on that wheel as is this present moment. The amazing thing about this wheel is that we participate in its creation.
If we are on this rim, if we are in time, our choices will not be known to us until the wheel spins to that position.
If we are not on that rim, if we have not been created, there is nothing to know.
God, who sits at the Centre has it all in His view.

 

[Richca]

Good Evening Aloysium: I pointed out before that in Jeremiah, it is written that " I knew you before you were in the womb."

As Catholics, we often get ourselves into credibility problems with others because we make excuses for an iteration of God that simply doesn’t and never did exist. Because the real God is probably nothing like the character in the lore of the Old Testament, and in truth, the Catholic Church does not officially support a literal interpretation of the book Genesis. And it is only in such literal interpretations that we run into logical problems in discussions with those who believe differently, especially when they start asking the hard questions. Because the men who wrote the Old Testament never had to stand up to hard questions, and in fact what they wrote is largely only a cultural tradition, and a rather primitive one in comparison with others from the Axial Age. And the Church wisely does not place its largent on any literal understanding of it.

Thank you.
Gary

Hello gary,
Besides what you quote from Jeremiah, the rest is just plain false and not according to catholic faith and holy Tradition. Do you not understand that Holy Scripture is the word of God and that the Church venerates the Holy Scriptures as it does the body of Christ? I think you are a bit confused of what the catholic faith and divine revelation are.

 

[Bradski]

There is no “before” for God. He is everywhere and in every moment as the one Being who creates all time and all things. No before and no after - it is all Now.

You are implying that He knows what will happen in out future. Is that not part of what it means to be omniscient?

But do you agree, from what you and Tony have said, that as He doesn’t know what choices people not yet born will make, He cannot know the future events that those choices will influence?

 

[Aloysium]

You are implying that He knows what will happen in out future. Is that not part of what it means to be omniscient?

But do you agree, from what you and Tony have said, that as He doesn’t know what choices people not yet born will make, He cannot know the future events that those choices will influence?

He knows all time. Therefore he knows all choices we will make. He is closer to us than we ourselves. He knows what we think, how we feel; He knows why we do what we do - everything that has led up to that choice. Because He knows us through His love and compassion, He is the perfect judge.

Now, He cannot decide not to create someone who will not repent, because He cannot do what is impossible. The decisions that each person makes can only be known if they are created. It is all about free choice and love. God will not, has not created beings that will behave in a certain way. It is not about the pretense of love or simply affection, but love itself, a giving of oneself to what is other.

Edit: Actually God has created beings that behave in specific ways, instinctually - they are animals. They cannot be evil, although we can mess them up pretty bad.

 

[oldcelt]

He knows all time. Therefore he knows all choices we will make. He is closer to us than we ourselves. He knows what we think, how we feel; He knows why we do what we do - everything that has led up to that choice. Because He knows us through His love and compassion, He is the perfect judge.

Now, He cannot decide not to create someone who will not repent, because He cannot do what is impossible. The decisions that each person makes can only be known if they are created. It is all about free choice and love. God will not, has not created beings that will behave in a certain way. It is not about the pretense of love or simply affection, but love itself, a giving of oneself to what is other.

Edit: Actually God has created beings that behave in specific ways, instinctually - they are animals. They cannot be evil, although we can mess them up pretty bad.

So the Christian God is not omnipotent. That’s one omni down…and I think you and Tony misunderstand what it means to be omniscient.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I just joined this thread, and only read the first post and the posts on the last page. Based on that, I’m responding to what I’ve read.

My thinking is that God did not create evil, as evil is not a force that was created, rather it is an absence of something that already was. Just as darkness is not the opposite of light, it is the absence of light, I would argue that evil is not the opposite of good, but rather the absence of it. Someone earlier on mentioned evil being permitted to exist. I would agree. My understanding of it is that God did not create evil, but that evil is a result of choosing to act against God, which would be acting without good, from a Christian perspective. Thus evil is the result of things acting not in accordance with God’s will. Satan is evil not because he had evil within him, but because in refusing to love humanity, and thus in refusing to serve God for revealing that He would become human to save us, his actions and choices put him at odds with God’s will. Likewise, when we sin, we are choosing to oppose God’s will, and in doing so are rejecting the good He wills for us. That state that is void of good is what we refer to as “evil.”

Regarding God’s omniscience. My understanding is that He does know exactly what our choices will be. His knowing that does not, however, mean that he will stop us from making those choices. He gave us free will, not so that we would have the ability to rebel against him, but so that we would be capable of choosing to love Him. If we choose to love Him, it is our choice that we make ourselves, not a choice that He forces upon us. Similarly to how if you are in a relationship, it’s generally considered wrong and unloving to force your significant other to spend time with you, as that would defeat the purpose of their wanting to spend time with you, and it is unfair to them, God will not force us to love Him if we decide that we don’t want to. In that respect, Hell is not a place where we are banished for opposing God, it is a place that we choose, through our own actions, in choosing to be apart from God.

Anyway my point is that God knows exactly what each of our decisions will be before we make them, good, bad, and neutral. He knows if and when we will choose to reject Him, if and when we choose to seek His forgiveness, if and when we choose to return the love He gives us, and so on. And all of that considered, He still chooses to create us and love us because, despite all the bad we may do, He wants us to have the chance to exist and to come to know him and to experience what we can of the world around us and the people we share it with. Even if we choose to be selfish, He chooses to let us grow and experience and hopefully change, because He wants us to share in His creation. I can’t remember the quote, but there was a section in He and I that referred to this, by Gabrielle Bossis. Essentially, He loves us enough to allow us to exist, even if we don’t love Him back. Similarly to how most parents would still choose to have their children, even when their children yell how much they hate them down the stairs. Our actions cannot diminish the love He has for us and the respect He has for our right to exist, so to speak, though that isn’t the right phrase. Our actions can only lead us to separate ourselves from Him. They can never push Him away from us.

 

[Bradski]

He knows all time. Therefore he knows all choices we will make.

With respect, Aloysium, you are ignoring what I am saying. And to reiterate, this is what you are saying:

1. You say He knows all time.
2. You say that He knows all choices that we will make.
3. You say that He cannot know what choices we will make before we exist.

You cannot possibly disagree that point 1 contradicts point 2. Choices that my future grandson will make will affect future events and you are saying that God cannot know what those events will be. If He doesn’t know what those events will be, then He cannot know all time.

You are quite literally saying that God has absolutely no idea what will happen one hundred years hence because the people who will make free will choices that will affect all events in one hundred years do not yet exist.

 

[tonyrey]

So the Christian God is not omnipotent. That’s one omni down…and I think you and Tony misunderstand what it means to be omniscient.

You are implicitly claiming to be omniscient!

 

[tonyrey]

You are implying that He knows what will happen in out future. Is that not part of what it means to be omniscient?

But do you agree, from what you and Tony have said, that as He doesn’t know what choices people not yet born will make, He cannot know the future events that those choices will influence?

There is no future for God! He knows all events influenced by all created persons regardless of when they are born. Not surprisingly, events influenced by non-created persons are non-existent.

 

[tonyrey]

He knows all time. Therefore he knows all choices we will make. He is closer to us than we ourselves. He knows what we think, how we feel; He knows why we do what we do - everything that has led up to that choice. Because He knows us through His love and compassion, He is the perfect judge.

Now, He cannot decide not to create someone who will not repent, because He cannot do what is impossible. The decisions that each person makes can only be known if they are created. It is all about free choice and love. God will not, has not created beings that will behave in a certain way. It is not about the pretense of love or simply affection, but love itself, a giving of oneself to what is other.

Edit: Actually God has created beings that behave in specific ways, instinctually - they are animals. They cannot be evil, although we can mess them up pretty bad.

Impeccable logic! (I have highlighted an indisputable fact.)

It reminds me of the frequent complaint “I didn’t ask to be born” - which makes an impossible demand. :whacky:

 

[tonyrey]

By one act of His intellect and from all eternity, God knows everything that He knows including everything that takes place in time in His creation. His eternity encompasses the whole course of time as being present to Him and not as future for there is no future nor past in God but an ever abiding present. God is absolutely immutable. His knowledge does not change.

A common error is to think immutability entails passivity…

 

[Oreoracle]

As I’ve stated multiple times in this thread, my points, as well as Bradski’s and oldcelt’s, apply equally well even if time is disregarded. Consider the following modal argument:

1. God acts according to his nature. That is, if it is God’s nature to do something, he does it.
2. God’s nature is necessary. That is, God cannot have been anything other than what he is.

It is a basic axiom of modal logic that necessity distributes over conditionals. In laymen terms, to say that it is necessarily the case that A implies B is to say that the necessity of A implies the necessity of B. Another axiom of modal logic is that theorems are necessary truths. (1) is a theorem since it is true merely because of the way in which God is defined. Even if God didn’t exist, it would still be true. So the conditional in (1) is a necessary truth. This means that, by the first axiom I mention, we have:

1. If God’s nature is necessary, his actions are necessary.

By modus ponens, (2) and (3) lead to the conclusion:

1. God’s actions are necessary.

So there you have it. God can’t help but do what he does. He lacks free will in any meaningful sense. Now I know that some of modal logic is considered controversial, but the two axioms I mentioned are never questioned. It’s not like I’m using S5 or something. They are the most basic axioms you can use to even call your logic a modal logic.

 

[LoganBice]

Also, to follow up on Bradski’s observation, there appears to be some dissonance amongst the Catholics on this matter. Amandil fervently insists that God’s perspective is timeless, so whether or not something has occurred, is occurring, or will occur has no impact on whether or not God knows about it. Tonyrey suggests that at least some future events are unknown, provided that they will occur due to the intervention of an as of yet non-existent person acting freely.

So which is it? Does God’s knowledge change over time or not?

You must understand that not everyone here is reflecting Church teaching. The view that God is timeless is the correct view according to most Catholic theologians.

 

[Bradski]

There is no future for God! He knows all events influenced by all created persons regardless of when they are born. Not surprisingly, events influenced by non-created persons are non-existent.

Well, I hate to be pedantic, but future events influenced by people who are in existence right now are also non-existent.

You are also saying that God knows as a fact the events which I will influence. But…those events will be influenced by people not yet born. And you say He knows nothing about them.

It’s a nonsensical proposition, but I’m not sure how else to put it. Tell me where this scenario is incorrect.

Tony: God, here’s Bradski. Seeing as he has free will, do you know all events associated with this person?

God: Yep. I know everything about anyone who exists. So I know without any doubt what his future is.

Tony: So there’s no ifs, buts or maybes about this. He is created, he exists, he has free will, so you know all events influenced by this man.

God: Yes…didn’t I just say so?

Bradski: So you know what I am going to be doing in twenty years time?

God: Well, yes, obviously. As a created person, I know everything about you. You’ll be taking the grandson for a walk in the afternoon, then having a couple of beers with a mate, then going for dinner with your wife.

Bradski: There are a lot of people going to be born next year. Do you know anything at all about events that they may influence?

God: Obviously not. Didn’t you read what Tony said?

Bradski: So what happens if someone born next year decides, in 18 years time, to kill me? Did you know he was going to do it?

God: Ummm. No, as I said…

Bradski: So you could be wrong about what I’ll be doing in twenty years time?

God: Well…ummm, of course, I can’t be definite about literally everything, can I…

Bradski: Doesn’t that apply to everyone? If freely made decisions made by people who are not yet born will affect people who exist right now, then you have no idea what’s going to happen to the people who exist now.

God: Maybe omniscience isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

Bradski: Are you sure?

God: Well, who can be sure about anything…

 

[Amandil]

So the Christian God is not omnipotent. That’s one omni down…and I think you and Tony misunderstand what it means to be omniscient.

Omniscience doesn’t mean that God “knows the future” or that anticipates what He knows as future.

Omniscience means that there can be no real barriers to God’s knowing.

So of course it is impossible to think of anything thwarting God’s will…

(And here’s the caveat you and your associate interlocutors keep ignoring)

**God allows the thwarting as in the human free choice to sin. **

This thwarting requires omnipotence and omniscience, so the argument fails.

 

[Amandil]

Well, I hate to be pedantic, but future events influenced by people who are in existence right now are also non-existent.

You are also saying that God knows as a fact the events which I will influence. But…those events will be influenced by people not yet born. And you say He knows nothing about them.

It’s a nonsensical proposition, but I’m not sure how else to put it. Tell me where this scenario is incorrect.

Tony: God, here’s Bradski. Seeing as he has free will, do you know all events associated with this person?

God: Yep. I know everything about anyone who exists. So I know without any doubt what his future is.

Tony: So there’s no ifs, buts or maybes about this. He is created, he exists, he has free will, so you know all events influenced by this man.

God: Yes…didn’t I just say so?

Bradski: So you know what I am going to be doing in twenty years time?

God: Well, yes, obviously. As a created person, I know everything about you. You’ll be taking the grandson for a walk in the afternoon, then having a couple of beers with a mate, then going for dinner with your wife.

Bradski: There are a lot of people going to be born next year. Do you know anything at all about events that they may influence?

God: Obviously not. Didn’t you read what Tony said?

Bradski: So what happens if someone born next year decides, in 18 years time, to kill me? Did you know he was going to do it?

God: Ummm. No, as I said…

Bradski: So you could be wrong about what I’ll be doing in twenty years time?

God: Well…ummm, of course, I can’t be definite about literally everything, can I…

Bradski: Doesn’t that apply to everyone? If freely made decisions made by people who are not yet born will affect people who exist right now, then you have no idea what’s going to happen to the people who exist now.

God: Maybe omniscience isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

Bradski: Are you sure?

God: Well, who can be sure about anything…

Flippant editorializing neither makes a coherent argument.