God created evil

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Once again you are introducing the time factor even though God transcends time and space.
Fair enough. We’ll go with that. So it would make no sense, from God’s perspective, to talk of what happened ‘in the past’ or ‘current events’ or ‘people in the future’ as He transcends time and sees everyone, past, present and future as one.
He has no knowledge of uncreated persons for the simple reason that there is nothing to be known.
And there you go and contradict yourself.

What you are saying is that God has no knowledge of my great great grandson because…he hasn’t been created yet. You are, to quote yourself: ‘introducing the time factor even though God transcends time and space’.

It’s quite a hole you are digging there, Tony.
 
Well, I hate to be pedantic, but future events influenced by people who are in existence right now are also non-existent.
Only from a human point of view.
You are also saying that God knows as a fact the events which I will influence. But…those events will be influenced by people not yet born. And you say He knows nothing about them.
God knows everything about people who exist - regardless of time.
It’s a nonsensical proposition, but I’m not sure how else to put it. Tell me where this scenario is incorrect.
Tony: God, here’s Bradski. Seeing as he has free will, do you know all events associated with this person?
God: Yep. I know everything about anyone who exists. So I know without any doubt what his future is.
Tony: So there’s no ifs, buts or maybes about this. He is created, he exists, he has free will, so you know all events influenced by this man.
God: Yes…didn’t I just say so?
Bradski: So you know what I am going to be doing in twenty years time?
God: Well, yes, obviously. As a created person, I know everything about you. You’ll be taking the grandson for a walk in the afternoon, then having a couple of beers with a mate, then going for dinner with your wife.
Bradski: There are a lot of people going to be born next year. Do you know anything at all about events that they may influence?
God: Obviously not. Didn’t you read what Tony said?
Bradski: So what happens if someone born next year decides, in 18 years time, to kill me? Did you know he was going to do it?
God: Ummm. No, as I said…
Bradski: So you could be wrong about what I’ll be doing in twenty years time?
God: Well…ummm, of course, I can’t be definite about literally everything, can I…
Bradski: Doesn’t that apply to everyone? If freely made decisions made by people who are not yet born will affect people who exist right now, then you have no idea what’s going to happen to the people who exist now.
God: Maybe omniscience isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Bradski: Are you sure?
God: Well, who can be sure about anything…
Entertaining but unenlightened - as a result of obstinate obsession with the time factor. 🙂 An anthropic view of the Creator is bound to be myopic!

The issue is why God creates us if He knows we are going to make evil decisions. The answer is that the choices of uncreated persons are unknowable. Once we are created He knows exactly what we shall choose but He cannot be blamed for our decisions. The time factor is totally irrelevant.

We are all in the same boat regardless of when or where we are born. Like truth, goodness, justice, beauty and love, freedom is independent of temporal or spatial considerations. Either we’re capable of self-control or not. We can’t have it both ways…
 
The Catholic Church does not hold as an infallible truth the theory of evolution nor, I believe, is it possible. Evolution is not mentioned at all in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In spite of, what I believe is Pope John Paul II’s personal opinion, can you provide an official document of the Church which tells me or any catholic that we must hold that the origins of humankind are explained by evolution? We already know that the human soul is immediately created by God and evolution has no part in it. And since a human being is called a human being because of the union of his/her soul with his/her body; the consequence is that God immediately created the first human being. Adam, as Genesis states.

Well, Genesis begins with “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth.” The Church understands this literally, i.e., that God created the entire universe and everything in it and that this universe has a beginning, it is not eternal.
The Church recognizes that the inspired writer of Genesis in some sense uses symbolic language to impart religious truths to a people of the time who could understand it. But the Church falls short of saying in most cases that the literal meaning of the words does not have any truth to it or may not have any truth to it. The Church is mainly concerned with the truths the inspired writer is conveying. We should keep in mind that Holy Scripture is the word of God and not some Harry Potter or Nancy Drew fictitious novel.

If you read the CCC and official documents of the Church throughout its entire history, you will find many references to the Old Testament. One and the same God is the principle author of both the Old and New Testaments. The science of sacred theology is based on divine revelation which is contained in Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition. Try reading some of the works of St Thomas Aquinas and you will find many references from both the Old and New Testaments.
Good Evening Richca: The Church does not make a formal statement on evolution being an infallible truth, but it wisely stays away from the subject. The worlds of John Paul II simply reflect the thinking of many in the Church on evolution. People such as myself agree with this, and we are a faction that takes modern science and the observable world into account. I firmly believe that humans are primates that developed from a line of hominid permutations. I do not believe that there is a man in the sky who created the cosmos in 7 earth days, as earth days are largely irrelevant to a being that supposedly is creating something infinitely larger than the solar system in which the earth resides, and came about billions of years before the earth. Our sun came about much later than the universe did, long after the Big Bang, which was in fact first posited by a Catholic priest. Our sun was not around, the earth was not around, and therefore, nothing was created in 7earth days, except maybe the Jewish tale about how it was created. At the time the universe came into being, there was only simple matter such as hydrogen and then other simple elements like helium. It took vast spans of time for them to form stars, and the matter from which we are made comes exclusively from dead stars, where elements such as carbon is formed. And this is how planets were then formed, on which beings like ourselves came to be, who in turn looked back at stars and wondered. We seem to be the manner in which the universe comes to know itself, or at least one of the ways in which it does so.

And the issue of things like creation and evil are simply problems caused by linguistics and the frameworks that attend them. Our structure of nouns, verbs and predicates makes us think in terms of nouns causing things, rather than what we take as being “things” as being what they really are, which are simply events. There are no fixed things in the universe. only a series of ever changing permutations of energy, and these things are events, not things. And as for God’s separation from the temporal world, this is simply an idea. In truth, I would offer that we are to God what a branch is to a vine. This is how Jesus put it. “I am the vine and you are the branches.” And a vine is not something different than its branches. Like a wave is not something different than the ocean. A wave is simply what the ocean is doing at the nexus of space and time where the wave is. You in turn are simply what the universe (or God) is doing at the nexus of space and time where you are sitting. It is all one thing expressed as endless things. World without end, amen.

And before you tell me how some the primitive men who wrote the books of the Torah disagree with me, tell me in your own words how what I am telling you is not so. Because I think you can think for yourself. And once you are able to do that, you can start being free from these ideas about who or what created evil. Because the subject is so very small in relation to what we are actually all about, and once you start thinking about it, you’ll know that you knew it all along. The way we came about is clearly defined by fractal geometry. We, and all things are fractal in nature. Our relationship to God and the world around us is seen most clearly in the Mandelbrot Set.It is all one thing expressed as many. The Alpha is observable in the Omega and the Omega is foretold by the Alpha, as are all points in between. Watch:

youtube.com/watch?v=0jGaio87u3A

Than you,
Gary
 
Fair enough. We’ll go with that. So it would make no sense, from God’s perspective, to talk of what happened ‘in the past’ or ‘current events’ or ‘people in the future’ as He transcends time and sees everyone, past, present and future as one.
So far so good…
He has no knowledge of uncreated persons for the simple reason that there is nothing to be known.
Code:
And there you go and contradict yourself.
What you are saying is that God has no knowledge of my great great grandson because…he hasn’t been created yet.

You are, to quote yourself: ‘introducing the time factor even though God transcends time and space’.

It’s quite a hole you are digging there, Tony.

You are trapped in the physical hole, Brad, because you are the one who introduced “yet”. Perhaps it will help you to understand if you think of everyone being created simultaneously. We and all our ancestors and descendants **are **created by God. Our decisions are knowable because we exist. Unlike the physical universe which was created in time and space we come into existence timelessly and immaterially. Like our Creator our minds are not limited by time and space. That fact alone is sufficient evidence that we too transcend our environment…
 
In this you’re correct.
I may use that as my signature.
But distinctions also need to be carefully drawn as well between God’s knowledge and how He experiences reality compared to how we do and whether that knowledge alone, as some have suggested dictates or determines our acts directly or whether his knowledge are simply his-according to His perspective-real time passive observations of our lives at every point of all time from beginning to end.
The jury is still out as far as I’m concerned on free will. But for the purpose of this post I will accept that it does. As we seem to have agreed, God knows us all (and that means everyone in respect to our understanding of the past, present and future). And knows what we will do so. What we will do based on choices made by us of our own ‘free will’. He is not causing us to make those choices.

However, He is creating us knowing that we will sin. And if you believe in hell, then He is creating some people knowing that they will go to Hell.

Let’s assume that my great great grandson is going to turn out to be someone evil. I’d guess that everyone would agree that God is not constrained in any way, so there is no compunction on His part to create my great great grandson. If He does, then He will know (in fact already knows) that the free choices the boy makes will condemn him to an eternity of punishment.

You might ask Him if you get the chance: Why did you create him, knowing he’d be punished eternally? What’s God going to say? ‘I wanted to give him the opportunity to make the right choice’. Are you kidding me? God already knew that he’d make the wrong ones. There can’t have been any point where he could have made what we quaintly describe in this situation as a free will choice. Otherwise, as he was trying to make up his mind what to do, God would need to be standing over him, thinking: Hmmm. I wonder which way this will go…

And, as we have seen, He already knows.
 
OK, Let’s say nothing can be known about our destiny unless we exist. And it would be unreasonable to condemn God for sending to hell those who didn’t exist. Because, let’s face it, He wouldn’t know our decisions. As you yourself said:
Unless we exist nothing can be known about our destiny. That is why it is unreasonable to condemn God for creating those who go to hell. It is like predicting the fates of fictional characters: in other words, begging the question.
So if we were to exist, if He were to know our decisions, then we *could *condemn Him.
Perhaps it will help you to understand if you think of everyone being created simultaneously.** We and all our ancestors and descendants are created by God. Our decisions are knowable because we exist.**
How’s that hole going?
 
Let’s assume that my great great grandson is going to turn out to be someone evil. I’d guess that everyone would agree that God is not constrained in any way, so there is no compunction on His part to create my great great grandson. If He does, then He will know (in fact already knows) that the free choices the boy makes will condemn him to an eternity of punishment.

You might ask Him if you get the chance: Why did you create him, knowing he’d be punished eternally? What’s God going to say?
He could say “because I wanted to” and it would be an entirely sufficient answer. You may not like that answer, but put it in context of Who it is you’re asking.

Or He could say, “Because then your great, great, great grandson would have never done so much to repair the damage that his father had done,” or “his sister would have never cured cancer.”

If your any fan of science fiction you should know the problems stemming from messing with time and the paradoxes it creates.

Yet for some reason because someone is in a crusade against God such time paradoxes apparently are fin because they have this false assumption that God can do whatever he pleases.

Which is no more absurd than the position that fundamentalists make.
 
OK, Let’s say nothing can be known about our destiny unless we exist. And it would be unreasonable to condemn God for sending to hell those who didn’t exist. Because, let’s face it, He wouldn’t know our decisions. As you yourself said:

So if we were to exist, if He were to know our decisions, then we *could *condemn Him.
God sends no one to hell. They choose to be independent.
How’s that hole going?
You haven’t climbed out of it yet. 🙂

The issue is why God creates us if He knows we are going to make evil decisions. The answer is that the choices of uncreated persons are unknowable. Once we are created He knows exactly what we shall choose but He cannot be blamed for **our **decisions. The time factor is totally irrelevant.

We are all in the same boat regardless of when or where we are born. Like truth, goodness, justice, beauty and love, freedom is independent of temporal or spatial considerations. Either we’re capable of self-control or not. We can’t have it both ways…
 
He could say “because I wanted to” and it would be an entirely sufficient answer. You may not like that answer, but put it in context of Who it is you’re asking.
I’m good with that. And my liking it or not is not a position I can take either way, because I don’t believe any of this happens in any case. I just want to know what other people think of it.

It’s just taken a very long time to get anyone at all to admit that this is what God does. He creates people who He knows, without any doubt whatsoever, will be evil.

Why He does it and if there is any justification for it is another matter (presumably He does it because He can and He requires no justification because ‘whatever God does is just’).
 
God sends no one to hell. They choose to be independent.
I don’t think I argued against that. But read the next comment:
The answer is that the choices of uncreated persons are unknowable. Once we are created He knows exactly what we shall choose…
To reiterate: If we are uncreated, the choices are* not* known. And once we are created, He* will *know. Now read the next one.
Perhaps it will help you to understand if you think of everyone being created simultaneously. We and all our ancestors and descendants are created by God. Our decisions are knowable because we exist.
So we are all created simultaneously and all our decisions are known.

Am I missing something here…?
 
Why do we stop suffering if it has good consequences? If it doesn’t have good consequences, then why the suffering?
 
. . . Let’s assume that my great great grandson is going to turn out to be someone evil. I’d guess that everyone would agree that God is not constrained in any way, so there is no compunction on His part to create my great great grandson. If He does, then He will know (in fact already knows) that the free choices the boy makes will condemn him to an eternity of punishment.

You might ask Him if you get the chance: Why did you create him, knowing he’d be punished eternally? What’s God going to say? ‘I wanted to give him the opportunity to make the right choice’. Are you kidding me? God already knew that he’d make the wrong ones. . .
He knows that the boy will sin because the boy has been created.

God can either create the boy or not.
If the boy were uncreated, meaning he has never been, is not and never will be created then there is nothing to know. That person does not exist in eternity.
If God does create the boy, He knows if the boy will sin or not.

There either is, or is not a boy in eternity.
If he exists, God will know his choices.
If he does not exist, there is nothing to know.

God creates people with free choice. He knows the choices of people who, relative to this time right here, exist, existed and will exist. It is up to us to choose.

This is not to say that God did not know people would bring sin into the world. That is why, at the foundation of the universe, the innocent Lamb, the Word, His Son was slain, taking all sin, all suffering onto Himself. This reality was revealed in Jesus Christ who died on the cross and was resurrected. He did not create evil, we do that. Evil is a damaged relationship with God, who is all good.
 
He knows that the boy will sin because the boy has been created.

God can either create the boy or not.
If the boy were uncreated, meaning he has never been, is not and never will be created then there is nothing to know. That person does not exist in eternity.
If God does create the boy, He knows if the boy will sin or not.

There either is, or is not a boy in eternity.
If he exists, God will know his choices.
If he does not exist, there is nothing to know.

God creates people with free choice. He knows the choices of people who, relative to this time right here, exist, existed and will exist. It is up to us to choose
You have just stated my position. We are in agreement. God can create a boy with what you describe as free will. Yet we both agree (I highlighted what you said above), He knows what his choices will be.

He therefore creates someone knowing that he will spend eternity in hell.

Are you are happy with this?
 
I’m good with that. And my liking it or not is not a position I can take either way, because I don’t believe any of this happens in any case. I just want to know what other people think of it.

It’s just taken a very long time to get anyone at all to admit that this is what God does. He creates people who He knows, without any doubt whatsoever, will be evil.

Why He does it and if there is any justification for it is another matter (presumably He does it because He can and He requires no justification because ‘whatever God does is just’).
Well flip that around and put yourself in the position of the grandson and your grandfather was Adolf Hitler.

Obviously it was part of God’s will that you exist, but for very specific reasons he made your existence contingent on Hitler’s existence.

Are you going to say that God shouldn’t have permitted Hitler’s creation even for his own sake or at least as much for yours?

(And please don’t answer “I wouldn’t know because I wouldn’t exist.”)
 
You have just stated my position. We are in agreement. God can create a boy with what you describe as free will. Yet we both agree (I highlighted what you said above), He knows what his choices will be.

He therefore creates someone knowing that he will spend eternity in hell.

Are you are happy with this?
Sure.

He knows everything. From the beginning of Time He knew what would happen. It’s all occurring in His Mind at the same Eternal Now.
 
He knows that the boy will sin because the boy has been created.

God creates people with free choice. He knows the choices of people who, relative to this time right here, exist, existed and will exist. It is up to us to choose.
If God knows the choices from which those with free will can choose, and being superior in intellect, He would as a matter of planning and design, be very much aware of the probabilities in regards to what choices would in fact be made in the live production environment. Insisting on sticking to literal interpretations of the books of the Torah leads to tangled hierarchies, which are loops in thinking.

Thank you,
Gary
 
You have just stated my position. We are in agreement. God can create a boy with what you describe as free will. Yet we both agree (I highlighted what you said above), He knows what his choices will be.

He therefore creates someone knowing that he will spend eternity in hell.

Are you are happy with this?
The boy is created, eternal; there is no going back. You can’t uncreate him.

The boy has every chance, God knows everything, everything, I’ll say it again everything.
And, he knows it compassionately. If someone ends up in hell when God has done everything in His power to save Him, well, I believe he deserves to be there.

Do you feel sorry for Satan? It is the exact same thing. Satan made one decision, the unrepentant make it their life’s work.
There is justice. If this sickens you, consider whose side you are on.

This is my :twocents: If you want to know exactly what the Church teaches rather than what some random guy on the internet thinks, check them out.
 
Well flip that around and put yourself in the position of the grandson and your grandfather was Adolf Hitler.

Obviously it was part of God’s will that you exist, but for very specific reasons he made your existence contingent on Hitler’s existence.
You are now giving me reasons why He might have created someone knowing that they would go to hell. That can and I’m sure will be discussed at some point. But at least we now agree that this is what God does.

And in fact, any discussions on the reasons for why He does this will, I’d guess, end up with someone riffing on the claim that we cannot know God’s mind. In other words, we don’t know.
 
The boy has every chance, God knows everything, everything, I’ll say it again everything. And, he knows it compassionately. If someone ends up in hell when God has done everything in His power to save Him, well, I believe he deserves to be there.
You are introducing another conundrum.

If God knows everything and the boy does indeed end up in hell, then God would always know that was going to be the outcome. It’s not likely it would come as a surprise to Him.

But you are now suggesting that God would have tried everything He could do to save him. In other words, God would have tried to change what He already knew was going to happen.

How does that work?
 
In other words, we don’t know.
Which leaves us in the same position when evaluating the atheist explanation for evil.

Their answer is also, “we don’t know.”

At least, with the Christian paradigm we have an answer for why there is evil in the world. (It is found in Genesis and a solution is offered in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).
 
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