God created evil

[oldcelt]

sigh.

This has been addressed, ad nauseum, already.

His foreknowledge is in the Eternal Now. That He knew, at the moment of the creation of the world, that I would be typing this response to you, in no way predestines me to be typing this to you.*** It’s all occurring at the very same moment–the creation of the world, and my typing this–to God. ***

And just how does that absolve the Christian God of His knowledge? It doesn’t. Just insisting that God exists out of our time does not change the facts of what He created and that His omnipotence could have altered the situation.

What about omnipresence? “In the whole world there is no place which the eternal God does not fill, no boundaries which limit Him; He is omnipresent. God Himself gives us a sublime picture of this when He says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth My footstool” [Isaias 66, 1]. And yet the earth, this footstool of God, has a surface of nine millions of square miles and millions of stars sparkle like diamonds around the throne of God in Heaven, and these are mostly greater than this footstool, than the earth! God fills and preserves everything with His presence. The soul of man is a weak picture of this, which as an image of God is present everywhere in the body and preserves its life and its movements, for with its thoughts it hastens with the speed of lightning through the spaces of earth and can place itself now here and now elsewhere in its imagination. This latter presence of the soul is, to be sure, only an imaginary one; with God, however, it is real and substantial.” catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35261

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I granted you that God can create whomever he wants, know what they will do, and that none of this precludes free will. Now I’m using those premises to point out that God could have eliminated all evil without eliminating freedom by your very own logic. You have only yourself to blame.

So, by your own accounting, if God was really good, God would not have created souls that would choose atheism?

So now the existence of atheism proves God is not good?

 

[fred_conty]

I’ve made the case earlier in this thread that if God knows our actions before creating us, they can’t have been otherwise, therefore they aren’t free. That is, I argued as you are now. Other posters have complained that this is not what is meant by freedom. My last post shows that, even if we use “freedom” in their sense of the word (in the sense of “having free will”), we still run into problems.

I seems that the idea of foreknowledge and freedom of the will are difficult to reconcile.

If we say that God knows beforehand what the outcome will be, then that pretty much smashes free will.
If we say that we have free will, then that pretty much smashes God’s foreknowledge since we have not yet made our decisions one way or the other.

I know when I look at a baby boy infant that that little thing will be a grown man someday. But my foreknowledge doesn’t make it so.

I know when I see the sun rise in east that it will set in the west. But my foreknowledge doesn’t make it so.

Then why does God’s foreknowledge make it so? He can foreknow and not make it so, if I can foreknow and not make it so.

Because we are basing his foreknowledge on how we think and not on how God’s thinking goes.
We see events passing one at a time thru time. God sees all events at once, including all free will acts which are not seen as future acts but are present to him now. If he didn’t see everything in his gaze, then he would be surprised because he would not know everything.

In addition we are talking about a mystery which we may have some knowledge of, but not the complete knowledge since we have limited intelligence whereas God’s is unlimited. Even this “unlimited” we cannot fathom for everything we experience is limited.

For instance, eternity is not time strung out forever. Because that is still time and not eternity. When we talk about eternity we are talking about something we have never experienced.

When we say that God created the world at some point…what point? Since time has not been created before creation, then how can we say that God created at some point. Can we really say he created at some point or rather he simply created from eternity.

I’m just saying that all of this is a mystery in which we can have some knowledge but do not know everything. And having some knowledge, we can understand better but even tho not fully.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I granted you everything. I granted you that God can create whomever he wants, know what they will do, and that none of this precludes free will. Now I’m using those premises to point out that God could have eliminated all evil without eliminating freedom by your very own logic. You have only yourself to blame.

Are we to infer from what you have said that, if you granted the existence of the Christian God, you would have to conclude this God is malevolent because he creates people who freely choose to oppose him by choosing to be evil?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know what you’re complaining about, PRmerger.

Who’s complaining?

I thought I was in a dialogue.

I granted you everything. I granted you that God can create whomever he wants, know what they will do, and that none of this precludes free will.

Egg-zactly.

Now I’m using those premises to point out that God could have eliminated all evil without eliminating freedom by your very own logic. You have only yourself to blame.

If God eliminates the choice for evil (which is, essentially, eliminating evil), then there is NO CHOICE.

That’s just basic logic, Oreoracle.

Again, if your wife has no other man to choose, except you, it’s not really a choice, is it, if she is told, “You must pick a man to marry!” and there’s no other man, save for you…would that be a choice?

 

[Oreoracle]

So, by your own accounting, if God was really good, God would not have created souls that would choose atheism?

So now the existence of atheism proves God is not good?

Are we to infer from what you have said that, if you granted the existence of the Christian God, you would have to conclude this God is malevolent because he creates people who freely choose to oppose him by choosing to be evil?

No, I am not claiming that God is evil on the basis that he could have made a world in which beings are perfect and free at the same time but chose not to do so. The fact that you believe I am suggesting that is very telling, however. Perhaps you feel he would be evil if this were so?

All I am saying is that the stock argument “God couldn’t make us perfect because we wouldn’t be free” is wrong by the conception of freedom that Catholics have defended on this thread. This is because God’s decision to create perfect beings and his knowledge that they would be perfect doesn’t preclude their freedom to choose otherwise by your own logic. Thus they are free in the sense of having free will and morally unblemished at the same time. God could have his cake and eat it too.

 

[PRmerger]

All I am saying is that the stock argument “God couldn’t make us perfect because we wouldn’t be free” is wrong by the conception of freedom that Catholics have defended on this thread.

That is not our argument at all.

Our position is this: there must always be the chance to reject God, if free will is to be actually free.

 

[Oreoracle]

If God eliminates the choice for evil (which is, essentially, eliminating evil), then there is NO CHOICE.

You’re switching around words. I said that he would eliminate the possibility of evil, not the choice.

For example, let’s say that there is no human who will bring about a Second Holocaust. God designed every human, and he knows which humans will commit atrocities and what those atrocities will be. Thus he knows that no one will cause a Second Holocaust, and he designed every human knowing that they wouldn’t cause a Second Holocaust.

Does this restrict our free will? No, not by the conception of free will that Catholics have defended on this thread. People could still choose to bring about the Second Holocaust, God just knows they won’t.

All you have to do is substitute any atrocity in place of “Second Holocaust” and you get the perfect, yet still free, world that I described. It is the same logic.

 

[Amandil]

I see that nothing that I provided in regards to either the will or the definition of freedom that the Church has posited was even addressed.

Not surprised.

 

[Oreoracle]

I see that nothing that I provided in regards to either the will or the definition of freedom that the Church has posited was even addressed.

Not surprised.

Sorry, I know that you worked hard to copy and paste all of that.

You didn’t address my modal argument that I made earlier, either. So I suppose we’re even. Well, kind of. I actually had to type mine, and come up with it myself.

 

[Amandil]

Sorry, I know that you worked hard to copy and paste all of that.

You didn’t address my modal argument that I made earlier, either. So I suppose we’re even. Well, kind of. I actually had to type mine, and come up with it myself.

It wasn’t my intent to immediate address your modal argument.

You want the Christian definition of freedom and I provided it.

I can take from this and your snide demeanor that it apparently made your objections obsolete.

 

[Oreoracle]

I can take from this and your snide demeanor that it apparently made your objections obsolete.

Not at all. In the last several posts I have accommodated the notion of freedom as you have defended it. Now people are arguing against the same logic they were defending just a short time ago. Funny how that works.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re switching around words. I said that he would eliminate the possibility of evil, not the choice.

For example, let’s say that there is no human who will bring about a Second Holocaust. God designed every human, and he knows which humans will commit atrocities and what those atrocities will be. Thus he knows that no one will cause a Second Holocaust, and he designed every human knowing that they wouldn’t cause a Second Holocaust.

Does this restrict our free will? No, not by the conception of free will that Catholics have defended on this thread. People could still choose to bring about the Second Holocaust, God just knows they won’t.

I see what you’re saying.

And the fact that God created no human being who will bring about a Second Holocaust is irrelevant, for the Holocaust is but one example in of an infinite number of evil choices that the human person could make, given our ability to reject Him.

For God to eliminate the infinite number of evil choices would necessarily mean that God would remove our free will.

God will never do that.

All you have to do is substitute any atrocity in place of “Second Holocaust” and you get the perfect, yet still free, world that I described. It is the same logic.

Certainly.

We just cannot substitute every atrocity. For that would, indeed, eliminate our free will.

 

[Oreoracle]

We just cannot substitute every atrocity. For that would, indeed, eliminate our free will.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You have no problem with the idea that God could eliminate a possible evil action (one that humans have already proven they can commit). You instead take issue with the idea that he would eliminate every possible evil action.

But this seems arbitrary for two reasons: 1) God would already be reducing our choices by creating us so that we wouldn’t choose to enact another Holocaust. You could argue that it’s a minor intrusion into your free will, but it’s certainly an intrusion. Surely I must have less free will than Hitler if I can’t choose such a thing? 2) Apply my argument to each evil action individually. How many evil actions have to be eliminated before it constitutes an elimination of free will? How do you justify where you choose to draw the line?

If it’s only necessary to be able to commit some evil to have free will, I propose the following: God could create a world in which everyone will choose only good actions or to pinch someone they don’t like. There you go, we have the possibility of choosing evil now.

 

[Amandil]

I don’t know what you’re complaining about, PRmerger. I granted you everything. I granted you that God can create whomever he wants, know what they will do, and that none of this precludes free will. Now I’m using those premises to point out that God could have eliminated all evil without eliminating freedom by your very own logic. You have only yourself to blame.

God gave man the chance to obey Him and do the good without “knowing” evil as He does. We refused.

God could recreate the universe a million times and the outcome would be the same. God could created every individual in original justice and the outcome would be the same.

Now we know evil.

So now God gives us the chance to obey Him and to do the good while knowing evil as He does.

AND he makes available to us all the grace and assistance necessary to overcome it evil if we CHOOSE to.

Only an utterly unreasonable and irrational human would deny that.

 

[gmx2014]

Evil cannot be created because it doesn’t exist! The term is a human description of what happens when things go wrong.

Evil is very very real and has a tremendous power. Pure terror. Ever heard of Jeffrey Dahmer? He wasn’t fake. He wasn’t penned (scripted). He was the real deal. Evil will make your own insides want to crawl right out of your own mouth.

Evil does as evil is. And evil sure is. But when it doesn’t exist, for you, thank and praise and be joyful and happy.

 

[PRmerger]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You have no problem with the idea that God could eliminate a possible evil action (one that humans have already proven they can commit).

You are incorrect.

The above is not a correct synopsis of my position.

That there is no person (presumably) who will cause a Second Holocaust ought not be interpreted as saying “God eliminated the Second Holocaust”.

It is the choice of the individual, not God, who eliminates the Second Holocaust.

 

[PRmerger]

And just how does that absolve the Christian God of His knowledge?

Absolve Him of His knowledge?

Why should He be guilty of it?

The fact that you create a child that you know is going to poop in his pants in no way makes you guilty of his poor hygiene.

What about omnipresence? “In the whole world there is no place which the eternal God does not fill, no boundaries which limit Him; He is omnipresent. God Himself gives us a sublime picture of this when He says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth My footstool” [Isaias 66, 1]. And yet the earth, this footstool of God, has a surface of nine millions of square miles and millions of stars sparkle like diamonds around the throne of God in Heaven, and these are mostly greater than this footstool, than the earth! God fills and preserves everything with His presence. The soul of man is a weak picture of this, which as an image of God is present everywhere in the body and preserves its life and its movements, for with its thoughts it hastens with the speed of lightning through the spaces of earth and can place itself now here and now elsewhere in its imagination. This latter presence of the soul is, to be sure, only an imaginary one; with God, however, it is real and substantial.” catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35261

Very Catholic, this!

 

[Oreoracle]

That there is no person (presumably) who will cause a Second Holocaust ought not be interpreted as saying “God eliminated the Second Holocaust”.

It is the choice of the individual, not God, who eliminates the Second Holocaust.

I’m sorry, but it is you who suggested the language of eliminating choices, as seen here:

For God to eliminate the infinite number of evil choices would necessarily mean that God would remove our free will.

So if creating humans who won’t make a choice doesn’t count as eliminating that choice, then the perfect world I describe wouldn’t constitute an elimination of free will in the sense that “the infinite number of evil choices would be eliminated”. None would be eliminated in this scheme, by your own admission.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Oreoracle

So let me sum this up as I understand you.

A good God would only have created a universe in which evil could not exist, even though everyone would be free to be evil. So that means a good God would not have created agnostic atheists, since they would choose to oppose his good will.

So if God was good, it would be better if you, an agnostic atheist, had not existed?

But of course, you don’t think God exists; so it’s better that you exist than that God exists?

Or do you think it would be better if neither you nor God exists?

Or would it better better that both you and God exist?

Whew! :hypno::hypno::hypno: