God created evil

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Since 7 is wrong, there is something amiss in your statements 1-6, or they are incomplete.
Where do you think the problem lies?
In my opinion (1) and only (1) is wrong.
This then leads to a few other questions:
Are you trying to find the truth or to justify your beliefs?
I am trying to find the truth and then I have responsibility to inform others of what I believe.
If you are trying to find truth, what makes you believe that it can be arrived at, in this manner?
To me metaphysics is set of consistent concepts which can logically explain reality. This means a set of concepts which are not consistent cannot explain reality hence we have to drop at least one of the concept. Among those concepts is the timeless state. I had several thread discussing the problem of timeless state, among those problems, there is one that you have noticed, there is another problem so called: “God in state of timeless cannot know the current time”, etc. What I am arguing is that one problem withing a framework is enough to remove creditability of a framework hence we have to question the axioms we have accepted.
Are you starting with 7 as your “truth”, and working out 1-6 to arrive at that result?
To be honest I don’t remember how I reach to this conclusion, whether I use deductive or inductive method, but I have a specific thread for this. I can find it if you are interested.
 
And what is the source this disorder attachment? Imperfection. Yet we do sin out of freedom.
You’re using the term “imperfection” ambiguously at best.

What part of that “imperfection” causes the disordered attachment?
This is a contradictory statement. We are in fact are not free when we act upon our purpose and ends since we are acting upon our purpose and ends.
Freedom is not defined the same as license. Freedom is properly defined as the responsibility to do the good that we ought, not the ability to do what we like.

E.g. A train is designed to travel from one point to another on a track, that is its purpose and end. Then someone came along and told that train that those tracks which take it to its destinations were hampering and restricting its freedom, and that to be truly free it must jump the track and choose its own way. If that train then jumps the track to be free of it and crashes, it would by definition be stuck and not be free to travel any longer.

There is no freedom in a will enslaved to sin, just as there is no freedom in a train which is derailed.
We are imperfect yet perfection is approachable through the right practice which involves the knowledge of what is good and bad to do on the spot so called morality.
So are you saying that “perfection” is achievable by our own powers and abilities?
The blind obedience however does not grant any understanding of morality.
Where did I say anything about “blind obedience”?

And so it is your contention that in order to know good we have to know evil? That in order to understand “thou shalt not kill” that we have to know what it is to kill someone?
I don’t understand how do you reach to such a conclusion.
Sound reasoning.
It is not ambiguous. It means that perfection is the goal and free will is the tools.
And tools can and often are used badly. Tools, like that train, are ordered to an end or purpose. Thus free will is necessarily ordered to the good and is only “free” when it chooses the good.

If I use a hammer to fasten a nail into wood, then I am using that hammer correctly as a tool. If I use that same hammer instead to try and screw in a wood screw, I’m am definitely not using that tool according to its purpose, even though I am exercising the “freedom”(as you are using it) to do so. I am not using the tool according to its purpose but abusing it, as well as looking like a fool in the attempt.

Theologically speaking the Christian faith teaches that even free will alone falls short of achieving perfection, that morality alone, as good as morality is, falls drastically short of the real purpose man was made. And that even morality alone is nearly impossible without divine assistance.
No, what you say is inconsistent. You have to either accept that the imperfection is the source of sin or not. If yes sin is possible given circumstances and if not then you have to explain how possibly someone could commit sin.
False dichotomy.

Man’s imperfection is the source of sin, not any imperfection on the part of God(just to be clear by what is being said).

Sin is thus possible in any act on the part of man.

How people commit sin is based upon the perceived good in the sin itself. They want the false good sought. People steal in order to obtain the good they desire, yet it is obtained sinfully by following greed or covetousness. They believe that what they desire is absolutely their due. God never created that desire to steal, nor the act of stealing, those are entirely on the part of the person committing the act.

So it is not “inconsistent”.
In first case God is responsible for sin since he knows that imperfect creatures fail given circumstances.
Not directly, no. No more than you are responsible because you see someone else steal something. Your seeing it did not cause them to choose to steal.
 
In my opinion (1) and only (1) is wrong. . . I am trying to find the truth and then I have responsibility to inform others of what I believe. . . …
I understand that this is what you believe.
As Catholics, I’m sure you know that we go by what has been revealed by God, as He has made Himself known through the Word and the Holy Spirit.
If you are forming a logical argument that does not include the truths of God’s existence in eternity and His being the creator of all including time, you aren’t going to get much of a following.
 
It’s a bad translation choice. Not one translation is perfect. It’s always best to compare between 5+ of them.

If you look at Isaiah45:7 in the NABRE, RSVCE, ESV, NASB, NKJV, none of them use it.

Looking at the passage itself, it makes no sense.

The passage is comparing one extreme to the other:

“I form Light” vs. “Create Darkness”

“I make well-being/weal/peace” vs. {Evil}, really!? That doesn’t make any sense.

If it would have said:

“I make good” vs. “Create Evil”, then it would have made sense.

Then:

“I make well-being/weal/peace” vs. “I create calamity, woe”

Makes sense.
Two of the oldest bibles use evil…makes sense. This one of the reasons that the verses of the bible give no proof of anything regarding god (s). one researching the subject is forced to draw their own conclusions because of the multiple interpretations that are possible.
It is like any other form of research. Some sources just prove to be unreliable and must be discarded. In the case of god…that leaves only observation.
 
Two of the oldest bibles use evil…makes sense. This one of the reasons that the verses of the bible give no proof of anything regarding god (s). one researching the subject is forced to draw their own conclusions because of the multiple interpretations that are possible.
It is like any other form of research. Some sources just prove to be unreliable and must be discarded. In the case of god…that leaves only observation.
They use “evil” because they understood precisely what was meant by “evil” in the verse via Sacred Tradition. There was no misunderstanding or misinterpretation due to uses in vernacular languages.

“Multiple interpretations” are simply not a valid excuse because the author has a very specific meaning in writing what he wrote. The job of the interpreter is find out what THAT intended meaning was, not what YOU mean by your interpretation.

Sacred Tradition maintains the valid interpretation of Scripture, they possess the mind and the intention of the Author in regards to Sacred Scripture, not individuals, so as to safeguard from “multiple interpretations” and the confusion brought on by them.

So your conclusions don’t follow.
 
They use “evil” because they understood precisely what was meant by “evil” in the verse via Sacred Tradition. There was no misunderstanding or misinterpretation due to uses in vernacular languages.

“Multiple interpretations” are simply not a valid excuse because the author has a very specific meaning in writing what he wrote. The job of the interpreter is find out what THAT intended meaning was, not what YOU mean by your interpretation.

Sacred Tradition maintains the valid interpretation of Scripture, they possess the mind and the intention of the Author in regards to Sacred Scripture, not individuals, so as to safeguard from “multiple interpretations” and the confusion brought on by them.

So your conclusions don’t follow.
My conclusions follow quite well. I do not place myself in the hands of some anonymous interpreter or sacred tradition that was created by generations of men. Where do we find this sacred tradition written down, in one spot, and in a clearly understandable format?

Christian God creates man with full knowledge of future actions…creation commits untold evils= Christian God created evil. No sacred tradition or interpretation needed…just an almost mathematical common sense.
 
Christian God creates man with full knowledge of future actions…creation commits untold evils= Christian God created evil. No sacred tradition or interpretation needed…just an almost mathematical common sense.
You are overlooking:
  1. The existence of free will without which you wouldn’t be responsible for your thoughts or conclusions.
  2. Free will implies power sharing which implies that God permits but does not create evil.
  3. To permit evil is a lesser evil than not creating beings with free will.
 
My conclusions follow quite well. I do not place myself in the hands of some anonymous interpreter or sacred tradition that was created by generations of men. Where do we find this sacred tradition written down, in one spot, and in a clearly understandable format?
There’s nothing “anonymous” about the authoritative interpreter of Scripture, oldcelt.

“Our Apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be contention over the bishop’s office. So, for this cause, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed men, and afterwards gave them a permanent character, so that, as they died, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.” St. Clement of Rome.

The idea that for something to be authoritative it must be “written down, in one spot, and in a clearly understandable manner” is a novel one.

God is not so dim to overlook the fact that, as you have demonstrated here, the written word can be distorted to suit the end of the person “interpreting” it regardless of its “clearly understandable format.”

So instead God left a Church, a perpetual living Body, to explain what Sacred Tradition is, as well as what has been written, what it means and how it is understood.
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oldcelt:
Christian God creates man with full knowledge of future actions…creation commits untold evils= Christian God created evil. No sacred tradition or interpretation needed…just an almost mathematical common sense.
Again, a post hoc fallacy, not “mathematical common sense”.
 
God did not ***create ***evil.

God is omniscient: ALL KNOWING (everything at once in the present tense)/
God is omnipotent: ALL POWERFUL
God is omnipresent: EVERYWHERE (in all dimensions) AT ONCE

God can only DO good.

God created sentient beings (the angels, the human race) and gave them FREE WILL (to obey him or to rebel against him).

God provided men (through Moses) with a set of laws which embody His will.

Many of the angels, including Satan, chose rebellion…so evil came into being…but not by GOD’S will.

All men intentionally or unintentionally violate God’s laws. So, the Commandments condemn ALL MEN as sinners. But Jesus, through shedding his blood on the cross provides atonement or justification for those sinful men who accept Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection,

CONCLUSION: When the ALL-KNOWING created men and angels, he would have had precognition of the sin (rebellion and creation of evil by them) problem…but GOD DID NOT CREATE THE EVIL OF ANGELS AND MEN.

It is true that an OMNIPOTENT GOD tolerates the existence of evil (or he could stop it in an instant). So, why does God tolerate evil? This is a mystery, but it is explained in the context that GOD CAN ONLY DO GOOD. So, in some way, HIS toleration of evil serves the greater good in ways we cannot understand.

This information is presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
 
My conclusions follow quite well. I do not place myself in the hands of some anonymous interpreter or sacred tradition that was created by generations of men. Where do we find this sacred tradition written down, in one spot, and in a clearly understandable format?

Christian God creates man with full knowledge of future actions…creation commits untold evils= Christian God created evil. No sacred tradition or interpretation needed…just an almost mathematical common sense.
Well, according to your view, if we do any evil or commit any crimes, then our parents should be held accountable for it and are the cause of it since they are the ones who brought us into the world. Now, except in some very special cases and possibly with adolescents, this kind of thinking is not going to be uphold in a court of law in any country that has a common sense of justice. As I noted in a previous post, a master is not held accountable for a servant who disobeys his just orders nor are parents generally held accountable for their children who may at some point in their life commit crimes. Your mathematical common sense does not make common sense.
 
That’s a consequentialist point of view. If we want to necessarily obey it, Hitler’s mother is responsible for the 100 million deaths that followed for creating Adolf. Do you reaaaaally want to go to that road? :rolleyes:

And Gos was indeed aware of the possibility of creating evil, but when you do your creation out of love and want them to embrace free will, you can expect the best possible scenario, as well as the worst, and it would hold little sway to you. God knew that men could do this, and He did and still does allow it, for now. **You can make God responsible, in an indirect manner, for creating evil, **but with that logic everyone would be indirectly guilty of something they might not even know. And since it is senseless to do so, that type of argument is pretty much rejected.

And the worst part, is that this argument has a non sequitur. You don’t follow necessarily from the premises that God created evil; on the best shot, He was indirectly responsible for it, due to His allowance of free will in His creation. But then again, that’s nothing new for us…
Nothing indirect about it. The Christian God creates evil. As humans, we are not omniscient…
 
Well, according to your view, if we do any evil or commit any crimes, then our parents should be held accountable for it and are the cause of it since they are the ones who brought us into the world. Now, except in some very special cases and possibly with adolescents, this kind of thinking is not going to be uphold in a court of law in any country that has a common sense of justice. As I noted in a previous post, a master is not held accountable for a servant who disobeys his just orders nor are parents generally held accountable for their children who may at some point in their life commit crimes. Your mathematical common sense does not make common sense.
Same as previous…we are not omniscient…the Christian God is.

I’ll tell you what would stand in a court of law: You knowingly create something dangerous (think evil) and it kills someone. You will be convicted every time.
 
Nope.

Evil is a deprivation of the good. We deprived ourselves of the good when we made that first sin.
I had nothing to do with the first sin…and God would have known that Adam and Eve would do precisely what they did…just like every other human the Christian God has supposedly created. Guilty.
 
I had nothing to do with the first sin…and God would have known that Adam and Eve would do precisely what they did…just like every other human the Christian God has supposedly created. Guilty.
There is no such thing as “would have known” for God.

It is all the Eternal Now.
 
There’s nothing “anonymous” about the authoritative interpreter of Scripture, oldcelt.

“Our Apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be contention over the bishop’s office. So, for this cause, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed men, and afterwards gave them a permanent character, so that, as they died, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.” St. Clement of Rome.

The idea that for something to be authoritative it must be “written down, in one spot, and in a clearly understandable manner” is a novel one.

God is not so dim to overlook the fact that, as you have demonstrated here, the written word can be distorted to suit the end of the person “interpreting” it regardless of its “clearly understandable format.”

So instead God left a Church, a perpetual living Body, to explain what Sacred Tradition is, as well as what has been written, what it means and how it is understood.

Again, a post hoc fallacy, not “mathematical common sense”.
You really need to go back to Philosophy 101. “A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form: A occurs before B. Therefore A is the cause of B.” In this case A created B admittedly by Christian philosophy, not simply preceded…Guilty.
 
You really need to go back to Philosophy 101. “A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form: A occurs before B. Therefore A is the cause of B.” In this case A created B admittedly by Christian philosophy, not simply preceded…Guilty.
Apparently you never had Logic 101 because your argument is by definition fallacious:

A) God created humans and angels ontologically good
B)Angels fell from grace through disobedience to God and thus brought evil to creation
C)A particular angel, Satan, tempted and coerced the first humans into committing evil
D) Thus God created evil.

So not only **is not NOT “Christian philosophy” **, and thus YOU perpetrating a strawman, it is by definition a post hoc fallacy because you are ignoring other factors which rule out your conclusion.

Guilty.
 
We have a nice garden. I go out and buy a couple of dogs. The dogs are happy in the garden and well behaved. I leave a bone in the garden but I tell them not to touch it. I go out and when I come back with my mate, one of the dogs has taken the bone and is digging a big hole in the petunias.

I’m not happy and tell them they can no longer stay in the garden. But my wife goes ballistic. ‘Look at it, you idiot. It’s ruined. Look what you did!’

‘Hey’, says my mate. ‘It’s not Bradski’s fault. He didn’t dig the hole’.

‘What? But what did he expect the dog to do? He knew perfectly well that one of them would take the bone and dig a hole for it!’

‘Well, yeah…but I still say it’s not his fault. You can’t blame him. And in any case, it’s not a hole – it’s just an absence of dirt.’
 
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