God doesn't speak Latin

[JKirkLVNV]

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JKirkLVNV—how can one have an aversion to how it is offered and not have an aversion to the old Mass. The old Mass is what it is. I believe Pope Benedict then Card. covered the part about the Extraordinary form being a cause for division —when he brought up the fact that the Latin rite has from times pasts — other forms of liturgy side by side.

That was the arugment at the council, that much had crept in that obscured the Mass itself.

Are you saying all of it’s so integral that if it was altered it would cease in esscence to BE the Tridentine Mass?

 

[Caesar]

The laity is not required to follow along in the Missal. It is merely an option if they so desire. Besides, after using a Missal for some time I barely look at the Ordinary of the Mass- instead I read and meditate on the Proper prayers and the Readings.

The use of a Missal by the laity only came into being around the time of Leo XIII. When I’m not serving, I sometimes use the Missal, or I might pray various prepratory prayers to recieve Communion, or I might say the rosary. I have no real preferance.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

So your ignorance and ineptitude with a missal nullifies the holiness of the Traditional Latin Mass? Should we ban it again to ensure that those darn cult-like traditionalists don’t get their way?

Nonsense. Following along in the missal ensures that we’re focused on the prayers. I suppose those who bring a missal to the NO are just doing some distracting reading duing the Mass, are they?

Over time, as you become familiar with the language, it becomes easier to do both. If you really don’t like multi-tasking, don’t go to a TLM. Problem solved.

Oh yeah… the children always pay attention during the english Masses. They really know what’s going on when it’s in the vernacular. Give me a break. I didn’t know what the Eucharist was until I was 17 (yes, well after first communion). Children can be taught. They can be given the basics of the Mass.

Seems a lot of unnecessary trouble (and patronizing) for reasons that haven’t been given.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, JKirk, as I said earlier, (pointing out that we already in the extraordinary rite HAVE the readings in Latin AND the vernacular), the changes you listed indicate that what you want is a hybridized, ‘semi Latin’ Novus Ordo mass. So you do have an aversion to the Latin Mass itself as it is currently, validly offered, and what you want to do is change it to conform to the ordinary rite as much as possible.

Thing is, you already have exactly what you want. You have the N.O. You have a valid “Latin” N.O. which is the ordinary rite in Latin.

But there are many of us who would like to have in addition to the above–which we fully acknowledge as perfectly valid Mass!!–what we ALWAYS had, which was unlawfully ‘removed’ from us; the extraordinary form of the Mass. Which does not require further changes as the ‘changes’ which Vatican II envisoned for the then ‘ordinary’ Latin Mass have already come into place. . .vernacular readings, ‘vernacular’ hymns in their proper place, choirs to sing or say the responses.

 

[Dauphin]

So they should repeat mantras, or settle for the Eucharist on the kiddie table?

The ordinary form is not the “kiddie table”.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You know, I think it is a terrible shame that it appears that many people feel ‘threatened’ by the use of Latin, in any way.

So they not only want to jettison any vestige of it in the Mass itself --“nobody understands a language they don’t speak as their native tongue or on a regular basis ordering coffee, etc.”, they want to render it at best as something which ‘used’ to be a part of Mass but thankfully has been swept away by the enlightened ones so that now we can ‘see’ everything, ‘understand’ everything, and celebrate all together now; at WORST as something which had been foisted onto the poor people for centuries, WRONGLY, and the whole sad debacle of those unintelligible mumbo jumbo Masses which denied millions the opportunity to ‘participate’ with God should be brought up daily, to warn us of WHAT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN if this hideous ‘Latin’ Mass returns. No more ‘freedom’ or understanding’ --all the ‘abuses’ that existed prior to Vatican II brought back.

"Fussiness’. “Ornate display”. “Choreography”.

Such uncharitable and neo-Puritan charges based solely on a dislike of what is seen as ‘new’. . .or worse yet, what is seen as 'not what I think should be done/said/worn".

I just understand the threat of the verncular. If it the Tridentine was in say English, with no other change, who would it be different?

Besides that everyone would understand what’s going on.

 

[Dauphin]

I just understand the threat of the verncular. If it the Tridentine was in say English, with no other change, who would it be different?

Besides that everyone would understand what’s going on.

Latin acts as a verbal ‘veil’ over the sacred mysteries. This is best articulated in yesterday’s homily.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

SOME of us understand what is going on quite well. . .when it is said in Latin, as well as in English or other languages.

 

[Walking_Home]

That was the arugment at the council, that much had crept in that obscured the Mass itself.

Are you saying all of it’s so integral that if it was altered it would cease in esscence to BE the Tridentine Mass?

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After all that has been said and done—apparently Not. Since the Mass was never abrogated and Pope Benedict (he was at the Council) has returned it to the Church without interference from the bishops–there seems to be more to the story than meets the eye.

When something is altered — does it not in fact change it.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Arent you all forgetting something though?

Regardless of the language Christ spoke; regardless of the languages on the signboard of the Cross; regardless of the earliest days of the Church; and everything else- Latin has been used in the Liturgy of the Latin Rite nearly 1500 years. It is a long-standing tradition, and that alone is enough justification for its use.

Are you forgetting something though?

“…regardless of the language the Faithful speak…” seems to be implied above.

When my old parish switched to English from Russian/Slavonic, there were those (all recent members) who said they did not want to abandon the language of their grandparents (which they did not speak). An elder, whose father was one of the founders said “I don’t care what language my grandfather prayed in. I care what language my grandchildren will pray in.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

May I point out ONCE AGAIN that:

The ordinary rite (vernacular) exists.

The ordinary rite (in Latin) exists.

The extraordinary rite (in Latin) exists.

Regardless of people’s personal preferences, can we PLEASE get it CLEAR that:

1. Those who wish to attend the ordinary, vernacular Mass are attending a VALID MASS and ‘understand’ as much as they choose to in that what is said is in their ‘native tongue’.
2. Those who wish to attend the ordinary, Latin Mass are attending a VALID MASS and ‘understand’ as much as they choose to in that what is said, while it may be in Latin, is capable of being understood just as much as we can ‘understand’ something said in any other language than our ‘native tongue’. IOW, either we read translations into our tongue, or we learn enough of the other language to understand it as well.
3. Those who wish to attend the extraordinary, Latin Mass are attending a VALID MASS and the SAME POINTS listed for #2 HOLD HERE. We are capable of understanding it just as much as we are capable of understanding ANY OTHER LANGUAGE THAN OUR OWN NATIVE TONGUE through the use of either a written or spoken translation/teaching or we learn the Latin in ADDITION to the language we already know.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Well worth repeating. . .thank you, Caesar.

While this has been an interesting thread–um, mods, have we answered the question?

God ‘speaks’ Latin–and every other language in that He ‘created’ us and we ‘created’ language.

We cannot try to limit Almighty God.

Limiting Him is what led to the OP objection.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So we aren’t limiting God. . .we acknowledge that He ‘understands’ us all - in language and in every other way that we 'communicate.

Now, how about agreeing with my other post above.

Then we can hopefully bring this thread to a close.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Here:

download.rbn.com/ewtn/download/latin830.mp3

(readings and homily)

Tibi gratias ago.

 

[Caesar]

Are you forgetting something though?

“…regardless of the language the Faithful speak…” seems to be implied above.

When my old parish switched to English from Russian/Slavonic, there were those (all recent members) who said they did not want to abandon the language of their grandparents (which they did not speak). An elder, whose father was one of the founders said “I don’t care what language my grandfather prayed in. I care what language my grandchildren will pray in.”

Then it is unfortunate that he wished to abandon his heritage and the traditions of that Church in favor of adapting to a society that despises heritage and tradition.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

“Did you listen to yesterday’s homily?”

Yes, I did. I thought it was quite good, but there was ONE rather disingenous little bit: the part where the homilist stated that the Holy Spirit had lead the Church beyond the use of the iconostasis and NOW she delineated or drew a veil across the Sacred Mysteries through the use of Latin. Illogical. One can easily argue that the Holy Spirit has, over time, as He has before, lead the Church “beyond” the use of Latin. I wouldn’t make that argument, but it’s logical given what he said.

I haven’t had a change to follow up the link, but the point is strange, as the development of the iconstasis postdates the Latin mass.

 

[Walking_Home]

Are you forgetting something though?

“…regardless of the language the Faithful speak…” seems to be implied above.

When my old parish switched to English from Russian/Slavonic, there were those (all recent members) who said they did not want to abandon the language of their grandparents (which they did not speak). An elder, whose father was one of the founders said “I don’t care what language my grandfather prayed in. I care what language my grandchildren will pray in.”

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So really Isa Almisry—why your interference in how we in the Catholic Church pray. Pray your way in the Orthodox Church and let us pray our way—whether its in Latin or the vernacular.

 

[Caesar]

Anyway, I think the point has been made that the key to understanding the Liturgy is not an understanding of the language of the Liturgy. The role of the laity in the Mass is to spiritually unite themselves in prayer to the prayer of the priest- this is not accomplished solely through understanding the language the Mass is said in.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The laity is not required to follow along in the Missal. It is merely an option if they so desire. Besides, after using a Missal for some time I barely look at the Ordinary of the Mass- instead I read and meditate on the Proper prayers and the Readings.

The use of a Missal by the laity only came into being around the time of Leo XIII. When I’m not serving, I sometimes use the Missal, or I might pray various prepratory prayers to recieve Communion, or I might say the rosary. I have no real preferance.

So that takes us to the hoary traditions of a century or so ago.

So much for the eternal TLM.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Latin acts as a verbal ‘veil’ over the sacred mysteries. This is best articulated in yesterday’s homily.

Would this be the veil of II Corinthians 3?

And what was the veil when Latin was spoken under Pope Victor, and for that reason translated from Greek to Latin?