God forced me into existence

[Zatzat]

You’ve got until your last waking breath of life to repent for your wrongs and give a true apology to God for what you’ve done…

So why dont you just stop worrying about this “dilemma” God has put you in, and start worrying about being the best possible version of yourself. That’s all God really wants.

You should be thankful God has given you life. It can be a beautiful thing.

I’m not worrying about it…I’m challenging Catholics to produce a decent arguement against my point. All I’m hearing is, ’ free will’ ’ God loves you’ ’ you choose hell ’ ’ God didn’t force you into exisence, he allowed you into existence…’

The same old story…seriously, 7 pages and not one solid rebuttal…perhaps it is a real dilemma in believing in the God of Abraham.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

This is actually a possibility, since in First Principles, Origen of Alexandria taught the pre-existence of souls. On the other hand, that doctrine was rejected by the church as heterodox.

I don’t particularly like my existence, and would have opted out had God given me the choice, but that assumes I didn’t have knowledge of the nature of heaven and hell before I was born, if indeed, the pre-existence of souls is a correct doctrine and was swept under the rug by the Church in the second council of Constantinople.

Some people describe heroin as “100 times greater than the best orgasm you’ve ever had”. I’ve never tried it, but we could use the analogy for heaven. If heaven is infinitely better than heroin without the negative side effects, then any type of temporal suffering, even being scourged with a roman flagrum, spat on, having a thorn driven into your head, being nailed to a cross, and dying of suffocation would justify attaining it.

We can use the same logic with our discussion of hell. Not even the greatest possible pleasures offered to us in this world, heroin, orgies, cocaine, etc justify eternal torture, as described in the 32nd chapter of Teresa of Avila’s autobiography, the Fatima children, and the passages in the Bible.

Lastly, we can say that the mere possibility of heaven or hell, since it is of eternal duration, merits even “feigned faith” in the Roman Catholic religion, since it is the religion that is most likely to be true (I don’t feel like typing why). A nonbeliever who receives the sacraments and enters the church, even though he does not really believe, is promised the gift of faith by Christ’s own words in the New Testament. Anyone who does not seriously consider the possibility of eternal salvation or damnation, is a moron and deserves eternal torture for stupidity alone.

As long as no infallible declaration by the Church rejected this the idea seems plausible.

 

[buffalo]

I’m not worrying about it…I’m challenging Catholics to produce a decent arguement against my point. All I’m hearing is, ’ free will’ ’ God loves you’ ’ you choose hell ’ ’ God didn’t force you into exisence, he allowed you into existence…’

The same old story…seriously, 7 pages and not one solid rebuttal…perhaps it is a real dilemma in believing in the God of Abraham.

**
How would you know that at the instant of your souls beginning you chose to say no?**

You must have said yes.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m not worrying about it…I’m challenging Catholics to produce a decent arguement against my point. All I’m hearing is, ’ free will’ ’ God loves you’ ’ you choose hell ’ ’ God didn’t force you into exisence, he allowed you into existence…’

The same old story…seriously, 7 pages and not one solid rebuttal…perhaps it is a real dilemma in believing in the God of Abraham.

You and I are seeing two different things here. From what I’ve seen they’ve responded fairly clearly several times. I’m not going to repost them, but they’re all here.

This is an interesting psychological study, actually. Why do we think our responses are good enough to answer your question, and why do you disagree? It certainly highlights differences in viewpoint.

Just musing. I suppose you could ignore me.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

**
How would you know that at the instant of your souls beginning you chose to say no?**

You must have said yes.

Does it sound plausible that God would only create creatures he KNOWS would say yes?

 

[TEPO]

I’m not worrying about it…I’m challenging Catholics to produce a decent arguement against my point. All I’m hearing is, ’ free will’ ’ God loves you’ ’ you choose hell ’ ’ God didn’t force you into exisence, he allowed you into existence…’

The same old story…seriously, 7 pages and not one solid rebuttal…perhaps it is a real dilemma in believing in the God of Abraham.

I don’t believe you. If you werent worried about it you would’nt raise the issue… Stop claimning that this is a “challange” to merely produce an “argument”…

You cant fool me. You are concearned.

 

[LilyM]

Did anyone see my post?

Seems not. Nor mine, apparently

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I seriously considered it and decided it was an absurdity. So, I’m Ok by your books, right?

Life is absurdity with or without religion or religious belief. The philosophy on this matter that might interest you would be Albert Camus. I’d begin with the novel “The Stranger”.

You are very far from “Ok” by my own standard of reason, but then again, that may not even concern you anyway. If you sincerely ask, reread my last paragraph in my previous response. I recommend you join the church, in your state of non-belief and receive the sacraments for “insurance” purposes.

If I’m right,

You lose (bare minimum):
5-10 minutes of your life driving to confession every week.
5 minutes of your life at confession every week.
5-10 minutes of your life driving to mass every week.
1 hour of your life going to mass every week.

You gain:
Eternal paradise, bliss, absence of pain, etc

If I’m wrong,

You lose:
all of the losses listed above.

You gain:
Nothing. Consciousness ends, you have no memories of your life experiences, and your whole life is rendered irrelevant.

Seems like a no brainer, eh?

 

[buffalo]

Does it sound plausible that God would only create creatures he KNOWS would say yes?

Hmmmm? I gotta think about this.

I stand on my question though - if you said no how would you know? Therefore if you can even ask the question you must have assented.

 

[fhansen]

If eternal agony in hell is real…it would be better never to have existed.

Yes, it is a bad thing. God should allow us to completely opt out of his scheme.

What can you blame God for in this scenario? He gives us the choice to opt for all that’s good and worth living for- an unimaginably supreme happiness we couldn’t help but want if we really thought it obtainable which He, Himself is the source of - or to reject it. We have all the freedom we need.

 

[lemondiesel]

Jesus spoke of heaven and hell. In fact hell is mentioned more than anything else.

Like i said, research Zoroastrianism, which was around much longer before Jesus :choocho:

 

[lemondiesel]

if none of “us” existed, you would not be thinking about this.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Like i said, research Zoroastrianism, which was around much longer before Jesus :choocho:

What matters is not whether or not a religion was “around longer” since most religions were passed down via oral tradition and there is no way to prove what they actually believed at any point during that oral tradition. The real issue is at what point in history were the tenets of a specific faith written down? Lee Strobel in “The Case for Christianity” makes the point that the doctrines of say Buddhism, weren’t physically recorded until after the gospels were written. Taking this into account, he concludes that many religions actually may have borrowed ideas from Christianity. Fascinating stuff. I don’t know that much about zoroastranism.

 

[timotheos]

I haven’t killed myself because I value my life. I value my family, friends and experiences. It has nothing at to do with the God you choose to believe in.

OK this thread is a bit heavy on the hypothetical. So lets get to some application.

If God appeared and told you one day, “Zatzat, I will give you a choice. I will give you your nonexistence right now if you want; don’t worry about hell. The offer is only good for the next five minutes.” Would you take it?

Then he follows up with, “But if you choose to exist longer than 5 minutes, you will exist for all eternity, and it’s either in heaven or hell. I will give you some additional amount of time on earth, and you are free to figure things out, if you choose to.” Would you choose continued existence, and a further journey into the unknown beyond what you seem to be sure of right now? Answer honestly, now. If you were dead certain God doesn’t exist, you wouldn’t be on this site, wasting your time talking to us.

I know you are sincere in your questioning, but I am also sincere in my response. There IS an unknown beyond what you or I or anyone can be absolutely sure of (short of personal revelation), but there are clues around when you begin to take notice. Starting with, what is this thing called value?, and where does my sense of value of life, family and friends come from? Is it really just an idiosyncratic evolutionary appendage of evolution, or could there be some other reason for something so … so deeply felt that I would continue to want to exist?

 

[lemondiesel]

What matters is not whether or not a religion was “around longer” since most religions were passed down via oral tradition and there is no way to prove what they actually believed at any point during that oral tradition. The real issue is at what point in history were the tenets of a specific faith written down? Lee Strobel in “The Case for Christianity” makes the point that the doctrines of say Buddhism, weren’t physically recorded until after the gospels were written. Taking this into account, he concludes that many religions actually may have borrowed ideas from Christianity. Fascinating stuff. I don’t know that much about zoroastranism.

Okay, I will keep this short as to not disrupt this thread.

Ancient Sumer, oldest written documents, gave the Bible many of its Genesis stories. It matters greatly because if your religion didn’t come up with the concepts, then how do we know we are truly following the right religion? (Sumer was just one example)

 

[Trishie]

God gave you the gift of yourself and of your life.

You have free will to choose to live according to love and practical acts of kindness.
One of you practical acts of kindness is your consideration of your family in preserving your life. I therefore fi)nd it difficult to believe you don’t also exercise other acts of kindness.

The great saint, St John of the Cross, reminds us that “A spark of pure love is more precious before God, more useful for the soul, and richer in benedictions for the Church than all other works taken together.” Clearly you have such a 'spark of love".

Remember Jesus’ insistence on practical acts of kindness as His basis for judgement of souls. See Matthew 25, verses 31-46

God bless you. And I hope in a distant future to meet you in heaven!

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Very well. Then why isn’t there a clause for people like to opt out of the whole affair and have nothing at all to do with heaven or hell. Just leave me alone?

For someone who wants to be left alone, you sure do spend an awful lot of time on this forum. Over 1200 posts now? Interesting.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Trishie]

Okay, I will keep this short as to not disrupt this thread.

Ancient Sumer, oldest written documents, gave the Bible many of its Genesis stories. It matters greatly because if your religion didn’t come up with the concepts, then how do we know we are truly following the right religion? (Sumer was just one example)

And so you presume that God and God’s truths were denied all other peoples?
God is God of all people including those who cannot believe in God!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Okay, I will keep this short as to not disrupt this thread.

Ancient Sumer, oldest written documents, gave the Bible many of its Genesis stories. It matters greatly because if your religion didn’t come up with the concepts, then how do we know we are truly following the right religion? (Sumer was just one example)

I’d have to both agree and disagree. I agree that many of the tenets of Judaism (which after all was the beginning of Chritianity) are (probably) taken from the Sumerian religions.

I disagree that it matters. As a Catholic I believe that almost all religions contain portions of the truth, even large portions. Only Catholicism contains the fullness of truth. So it might be true that the Jews got many ideas from the religions of Sumer. But only the Jewish writings, and the Catholic understanding of these writings, contain the fullness of truth partially known by the people of Ancient Sumer.

 

[coolduude]

“If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.”

As other posters have pointed out, you were not forced into existence. Rather, God allowed you to exist by allowing your concpetion to occur. If God didn’t want you to exist He would have personally stopped your conception from happening or He would have made your mother have a natural abortion. Also, if God did force you to exist, like you claim, He would have created you ex nihilo. He would have literally pulled you out of thin air and made you exist. You are correct in saying that you had no say in the matter. But like I just pointed out, this premise is wrong all around.

“I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him”

Again, you were allowed to exist. There is a difference. You also forget to add ‘…or freely choose to accept Him’. Otherwise this is correct.

“My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.”

Again, you don’t include ‘…or have me rejoice eternally in Heaven’.

“If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.”

For the third time, you don’t include ‘I wouldn’t be able to accept Him and spend eterntiy in His presence’.

“God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?”

To answer your question- no. This premise would be true if the only thing in the afterlife was hell- what would be the point of existing if you’ll only suffer later? But in reality there are 2 options: heaven and hell. If one doesn’t exist in the first place, he misses the opprotunity to be with God forever (bear in mind that if he doesn’t exist, he doesn’t exist- not even with God. He’s nowhere to be found). He also misses the ‘opprotunity’ to go to hell. The conclusion, though, is that existence is preferable, even if you go to hell, because you at least had a shot at being with God and expierincing (sp.) eternal happiness.

Like other users have said, God doesn’t send you to hell, you do with your own free will. You also send yourself to heaven with that will. It’s all how you use it.