God forced me into existence

[Belloc_Fan]

But you parents are not omniscient, like God is. If your parents were omniscient, they would have foreknowledge that you would freely choose to die in a car crash the next day, and they would do everything they could to make sure that didn’t happen.

God on the other hand, would happily give you the car, and let you die. Be happy you don’t have God watching out for you…

You’ve got a good point on omniscienc, but you’re changing the debate. The OP is arguing that God’s act of giving us existence and free will, with the possibility of our misusing it, is wrong because He’s forcing us to make a decision in which we might do something stupid. I think that argument is easily answerable, and already has been answered.

Your argument is intrinsically harder to address, because it deals with things we don’t really understand, like omniscience and God’s location in the eternal presence. There are two possible arguments you might be making:
(1) God’s foreknowledge eliminates our free will. This is obviously wrong, but it’s a frequent logical error made by opponents of theism.
(2) God foreknows which of us will be going to Hell, and permits the damned to (a) live and (b) have free will anyways.

I think you’re making the second argument, which is clearly the stronger of the two. It may well be unanswerable on this side of eternity for a very simple reason: we (and I mean all of us) don’t have any real idea how personalities are formed. In science, we can explain a limited amount through genetics, although twins with identical DNA can have radically different personalities. Epigenetics is a helpful addition, but still falls woefully short. There were hopes that at the subatomic level, we’d someday be able to plot the precise course of the neurons which influence our daily activities. Now we know that this will never be possible (Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle prevents us from ever doing this).

So in nature, the question of how our thoughts and our personalities work has something of a KEEP OUT sign: no amount of scientific advance will ever be able to plot the neurons sufficient to predict where they will move next. So far as we can tell, they move seemingly at random, and that “randomness” has an enormous impact on our daily lives. Look at the way the issues’ handled in Romans 9 or in Job, where the answer is basically, God’s God, and you’re not, so stop second-guessing.

The closest we have to answer is this: God views free will as a moral good. And not only that, but He views it as God-like: In Genesis 3:22, He compares the capacity to know good from evil with becoming as a god, David refers to the judges of Israel as “gods” in Psalm 82, and Jesus refers to those around Him as “gods” in John 10:34.

So repeatedly, the Bible, and even God the Son directly, speak of free will as an incredible and godlike power. But it necessarily brings with it the possibility that it will be misused and merit damnation (that’s the entire point of Genesis 3:22, read in the context of the chapter, which is about the expulsion from Eden, and the new possibility of eternal death).Given all of this, God has permitted mankind a certain authority with this godlike free will: the power to distinguish between good and evil, and act accordingly.

Similarly, with a federalist system, the federal government often has to watch states do things which the feds think are stupid, because we’ve decided as a nation that the empowerment of states is a public good, even if that empowerment is used to perpetuate public evils. But even if the president knew perfectly which states would misuse their limited sphere of sovereignty ahead of time, he would be acting immorally to restrict the state from this right, and we’d decry that deprivation of rights as a public evil itself.

So, essentially:
.1 If free will makes us more like God, as the Bible suggests, it’s good by nature (although it has the capacity to be used for evil).
2. Giving us free will would have to be considered a moral good, even though it opens up the aforementioned possibilities of misuse and damnation.
3. Depriving us of free will, even depriving those of us who God knows perfectly will misuse it, would be doing evil to prevent a greater evil - consequentialism at its worst, and something which the Bible rejects. Romans 3:8. God cannot do evil, period. So if free will is a moral good, and its deprivation conversely a moral evil, then it stands to reason that God, bound by His own Goodness, wouldn’t deprive us of this gift, even if He knew we would misuse it.

 

[AndyF]

There is no “risk”. There is a clear and certain choice to do what is good or what is bad.

Then why can’t we explain why not one celestial creature would volunteer to offer to glorify God by donning a temporary human soul and with the usual allotted graces any man would have, go through the gauntlet of life and prove that it is possible not to sin.

[Jesus is not that person. He is a King and knew that he was and could tap into that resource for inspirational strength. He knew he had without a doubt a more luxurious life ahead of him. His Faith was fully matured.]

The reason I think is because the celestial beings don’t like risk either, and the odds are not that appealing.

Secondly, how can you explain that the choices we make don’t carry judicial weight unless it is one that is influenced.? For example if I sin sexually by temptation or nature then I make a choice positive or negative. If I reflect later in my living room and make a choice by request through prayer to sacrifice all my sexual functions, then that choice is not honored or judged. It should be honored, and we have proof through scripture that if we sacrifice “a hand if it causes one to sin” we sacrifice of one value placed over another, and is a common theme for salvation. I think the celestial editors missed this one of many.

Thirdly, in Romans God stated that the law was for the** purpose of increasing sin**.
If sin is an offense, and if we are valued to any extent, why is the thrill of combat more important than seeing sin be decreased.? At judgment, having enough to torment us, we are left with the question of how much we came to this measure of guilt due to sin being increased. We ask ourselves, if it were not, would we find ourselves at a less offensive scale and passable.?

Andy

 

[Betterave]

Here I will explain the idea of “risk.”

I’ll start with two premises.

1. No one would freely choose to go to hell if they knew exactly what hell entailed; hell is pure suffering and eternal torture of the worst imaginable kind. hell is being separate from God who is the source of all good, all pleasure, etc.

When someone freely chooses hell, they aren’t choosing the torture and suffering, they are choosing sinful behavior which seems good to them while on earth, it is only when they die that they realize they have fully rejected God. I am certain no one tolerates hell, all want out! all wish they had repented, but they know its too late!

This being the case, those who “freely choose” hell certainly “choose hell” without all of the requisite knowledge and understanding of what exactly hell would be like, therefore there choice of hell is free only in the sense of the freely choosen actions that merit hell, not hell itself.

I recommend you read C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. What reason is there to think that those who choose hell (rejection of God) on earth will have a change of heart after they die?

and why shouldn’t I be angry that God forced me to take on this risk my forcing my existence and not allowing me to be annihilated?

no offence, but because that would be craven and stupid.

 

[NoAvailableName]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him

My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.

If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.

God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?

Discuss.

God: I created you. You must learn about me, tell others about me, care for the sick, etc.

Sinner: Meh, I’d rather not. How about I just not exist instead? How dare you create me in the first place? Who gave you such authority? I certainly didn’t and I think I am more qualified to make decisions about myself than you are. You can cure the sick yourself if you really want to anyway. Better still, just will them out of existence since you had no right to create any of them in the first place.

---

Preferring non-existence over the opportunity to serve God and do good is likely a sin that is not properly punished by giving in to the wish for non-existence. But if God really thinks that your complete non-existence is appropriate at some point, I have no reason to believe he cannot accomplish this either.

I don’t view the being that prefers non-existence as a special case amongst other ways that beings can reject God’s will.
One being thinks it should be allowed to do whatever feels good to it. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Another being thinks he shouldn’t have to be bothered with God at all. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Another being is mad at God because God didn’t make it beautiful enough. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Yet another being thinks it shouldn’t have to exist at all. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.

Now the punishment may be very different for the different beings, but all of them tried to elevate their will above God’s will, and all will likely be punished in accordance with their sins. They don’t get to pick the punishment in any case and there is no special case for the sin of preferring non-existence over serving God.

 

[lemondiesel]

You have always been existence, ever since the beginning of the universe.
“You” are only in existence due to the experiences that your present body has gone through, which makes you “you.”

“Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?”
How can non existence prefer not existing when it does not even know what existing is?

And this “hell” that you are living through, is not because God forced you into existence, it is because man is corrupt and driven by dominance, which is why we see hell here.

 

[Alindawyl]

If God is real, God forced me into existence. I didn’t have a choice in the matter.

Of course you didn’t have a choice in the matter. The creation doesn’t get to argue with the Creator in advance about whether or not it will be brought into existence.

I’ve been forced into existence, so that I may freely choose to reject him

You phrase this as if there is no choice to be made, as if rejection of God is a foregone conclusion. Curious.

Why is rejection of God assumed? Wouldn’t that mean there isn’t really a choice to be made?

My forced existence will have me languishing eternally in hell.

You left off “…if I choose to reject God”. Again the assumption that the choice will be rejection or that there isn’t really a choice.

If God had not forced me into existence, I wouldn’t be able to reject him and I wouldn’t have to spend eternity suffering in hell.

You also wouldn’t be able to accept God freely of your own accord and wouldn’t have the chance to spend eternity with God in heaven.

God sounds rather selfish and cruel to me. Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?

Surely eternal bliss in heaven with God would be preferable to non-existence?

God sounds rather benevolent and kind to me. He allows us to choose him of our own free will, instead of programming us to obey him without question.

 

[Zatzat]

You have always been existence, ever since the beginning of the universe.
“You” are only in existence due to the experiences that your present body has gone through, which makes you “you.”

“Surely non existence would preferable to eternal torment?”
How can non existence prefer not existing when it does not even know what existing is?

And this “hell” that you are living through, is not because God forced you into existence, it is because man is corrupt and driven by dominance, which is why we see hell here.

If there was no God, there would be no hell and there certainly wouldn’t be any souls languishing in hell for eternity.

 

[Zatzat]

Surely eternal bliss in heaven with God would be preferable to non-existence?

God sounds rather benevolent and kind to me. He allows us to choose him of our own free will, instead of programming us to obey him without question.

We have a far greater chance of ending up eternally damned and being tortured for all of eternity.

Non-existence is much, much more preferable than hell.

 

[JohnDamian]

If there was no God, there would be no hell and there certainly wouldn’t be any souls languishing in hell for eternity.

The only souls in hell are those who choose to be there.

As a good Catholic I cannot know who is in hell, nor who will be in hell - and it is right for me to pray that all souls are forgiven; however - we must accept that there are those who truly and genuinely, with full consent reject God.

The Catechism says thus;

1035 … Immediatly after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire”. The cheif punishment of hell is eternal seperation from God…

 

[Zatzat]

God: I created you. You must learn about me, tell others about me, care for the sick, etc.

Sinner: Meh, I’d rather not. How about I just not exist instead? How dare you create me in the first place? Who gave you such authority? I certainly didn’t and I think I am more qualified to make decisions about myself than you are. You can cure the sick yourself if you really want to anyway. Better still, just will them out of existence since you had no right to create any of them in the first place.

---

God - I am forcing you into existence and I am forcing you to partake of my great mysterious plan of salvation. I am forcing you to either reject me or accept me. If you choose to reject me, you will end up eternally tortured in a special place I created called hell.

Me - Uhm, can I just opt out of the whole affair and choose neither heaven nor hell?

God - Don’t be silly. This is my game, my rules and I’m forcing you to play!

Me - But I don’t want to play. I just want you to leave me alone and I want nothing to do with your heaven, your hell, your miracles, your angles, your demons…just leave me alone.

God - Never, you’re playing, you’re part of this and you have no choice. So get out there and love me…OR ELSE!!!

Me - Ok then, can you just will me out of existence so I can avoid having to accept or reject you? I mean, I didn’t ask you to create me or bring me into existence.

**God **- Never, I created you, you’re alive, and you have no choice in the matter. Love me or else!!!

Me -

 

[coolduude]

Here’s my 2 cents on this all.

I think, Mr. Zat, that by saying ‘God forced me to exist so I can reject Him and go to Hell’, you’re both admitting God exists and taking your anger out on Him. Why else would you act angry at a non-existent being? It’s crazy- unless you admit God exists.

I could make a thread that is the complete antithesis of this one, and I could even use the same title. But instead of saying ‘God forced me to exist ao I can go to Hell’ I could say ‘God forced me to exist so I can meet Him once more and spend eternity with Him’.

There are two sides to this- existing so we can reject God or existing so we can accept Him and spend eternity in bliss with Him.

 

[Zatzat]

Here’s my 2 cents on this all.

I think, Mr. Zat, that by saying ‘God forced me to exist so I can reject Him and go to Hell’, you’re both admitting God exists and taking your anger out on Him. Why else would you act angry at a non-existent being? It’s crazy- unless you admit God exists.

Oh please, don’t pull that old canard. I’m having a discussion with theists. My premise is that assuming your God exists. Secondly, I don’t know for a second understand why you think I’m angry at a God ( or any God) I don’t believe even exists.

I could make a thread that is the complete antithesis of this one, and I could even use the same title. But instead of saying ‘God forced me to exist ao I can go to Hell’ I could say ‘God forced me to exist so I can meet Him once more and spend eternity with Him’.

Very well. Then why isn’t there a clause for people like to opt out of the whole affair and have nothing at all to do with heaven or hell. Just leave me alone?

 

[JohnDamian]

Very well. Then why isn’t there a clause for people like to opt out of the whole affair and have nothing at all to do with heaven or hell. Just leave me alone?

Such a person would be confused and ignorant, God would not be cruel enough to give into their desires anymore than a parent would kill a child so they could find out what the afterlife was.

 

[brianwalden]

ZatZat, come on, you’re smarter than this. Logically you can’t make a choice if you don’t yet exist. Therefore it’s not possible to have the option to choose whether or not you want to come into existence. You’re just playing with semantics and asking for something that’s logically impossible.

 

[Zatzat]

ZatZat, come on, you’re smarter than this. Logically you can’t make a choice if you don’t yet exist. Therefore it’s not possible to have the option to choose whether or not you want to come into existence. You’re just playing with semantics and asking for something that’s logically impossible.

Exactly.

God forces existence on us. Our entire lives, we’re apparently all deserving of hell. But our wondrous Lord has given us a way to reconcile with him…in the form of a blood sacrifice, of his own self no less!

If all this is real, I want nothing to do with any of it. Not heaven, not hell…none of it.

Where’s the opt out clause?

Existence was forced on me and now eternal damnation is my reward for being forced into existence.

How the heck does that make any sense???

 

[Zatzat]

Such a person would be confused and ignorant, God would not be cruel enough to give into their desires anymore than a parent would kill a child so they could find out what the afterlife was.

I haven’t a clue as to what point your trying to make?

 

[NoAvailableName]

God - I am forcing you into existence and I am forcing you to partake of my great mysterious plan of salvation. I am forcing you to either reject me or accept me. If you choose to reject me, you will end up eternally tortured in a special place I created called hell.

Me - Uhm, can I just opt out of the whole affair and choose neither heaven nor hell?

God - Don’t be silly. This is my game, my rules and I’m forcing you to play!

Me - But I don’t want to play. I just want you to leave me alone and I want nothing to do with your heaven, your hell, your miracles, your angles, your demons…just leave me alone.

God - Never, you’re playing, you’re part of this and you have no choice. So get out there and love me…OR ELSE!!!

Me - Ok then, can you just will me out of existence so I can avoid having to accept or reject you? I mean, I didn’t ask you to create me or bring me into existence.

**God **- Never, I created you, you’re alive, and you have no choice in the matter. Love me or else!!!

Me -

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that your will (the created) should supercede God’s will (the creator). You yourself admit that you don’t have the power to create or destroy yourself, but yet somehow you are quite sure that your idea of what is fair and not fair is superior to God’s. As I pointed out in my previous post, this sin is not remarkably different than any other where one decides they have a better plan than God does.

One being thinks it should be allowed to do whatever feels good to it. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Another being thinks he shouldn’t have to be bothered with God at all. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Another being is mad at God because God didn’t make it beautiful enough. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.
Yet another being thinks it shouldn’t have to exist at all. God disagrees, and might send it to hell.

If your entire existence is dependent on God, where do you get the notion that anything other than God can determine what is the right path for you?

Basically, you are just asserting that you don’t believe in an all powerfull, all knowing God. You think that in certain areas you should get to call the shots, rather than God. In essence, you became your own God after God created you.

And yes, I know this is all in the “hypothetical” for you.

 

[Alindawyl]

We have a far greater chance of ending up eternally damned and being tortured for all of eternity.

We do? You’ve conducted extensive research into how many people choose heaven and how many people choose hell at the end of their life?

I would be most interested in the methodology you employed in your research.

But that would probably take pages and pages of explanation. I’ll settle for a quick news bite style summary with the percentages and margin of error

Non-existence is much, much more preferable than hell.

Despite the fact that you seem to discount the availability of this option for whatever reason, existence in heaven with God for all of eternity is preferably to either.

 

[Zatzat]

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that your will (the created) should supercede God’s will (the creator). You yourself admit that you don’t have the power to create or destroy yourself, but yet somehow you are quite sure that your idea of what is fair and not fair is superior to God’s. As I pointed out in my previous post, this sin is not remarkably different than any other where one decides they have a better plan than God does.

Of course my way is superior. I’d never punish people infinitely for finite sins. I’d never punish a child for the sins of his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand parents.

If your entire existence is dependent on God, where do you get the notion that anything other than God can determine what is the right path for you?

That’s why this plan of Gods doesn’t make any sense at all. I’m forced to exist and then get to spend eternity in hell. Great, thanks for creating me.

 

[NoAvailableName]

My premise is that assuming your God exists.

And since “your God” is all knowing, the only logical conclusion is that a being that prefers not to exist should learn why it is wrong.