God forced me into existence

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Zatzat said:
You’re analogy didn’t fit. Just because you create an analogy, doesn’t mean it makes sense with regards to the discussion we’re having.

Don’t let my tweaking make you feel bad. However, now you can see it is an most excellent analogy that clearly outlines how unreasonable and dare I say, cruel it is for God to give those two choices.
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So, when you make a hypothetical we can’t change it because it’s YOUR hypothetical. When WE make a hypothetical it’s not good enough and you need to alter it to reflect your innaccurate view of God?

Your analogy was totally off. Sorry.

You claimed you were “expanding” his analogy, when in reality you changed it completely. That was intellectually dishonest. If you wanted to make a different analogy you should have said it was a different analogy, not an expanded form of the first analogy.
 
Zatzat said:
You’re analogy didn’t fit. Just because you create an analogy, doesn’t mean it makes sense with regards to the discussion we’re having.

Don’t let my tweaking make you feel bad. However, now you can see it is an most excellent analogy that clearly outlines how unreasonable and dare I say, cruel it is for God to give those two choices.
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(It’s ‘your’ not you’re).

And it fit just fine. But as I said, you don’t want to even consider anything other than your own ideas.

I’m not going to be boxed in to somebody’s narrow, arbitrary parameters.

God is beyond you.

And so you really would have told your mother that you would neither choose a cookie that you would have to ‘behave’ for, neither would you accept ‘not having’ the cookie because you chose not to behave. . .no, you insist that your mother, not having allowed you a choice not to ‘opt out of existence’, is being unreasonable. . .???
 
Zatzat said:
I do not believe in any God…not just your God, but all of the Gods.

Yes, when we die, our persons cease and there is nothing left of us, except for a lifeless shell.

I am merely highlighting exactly why your christian story doesn’t make a whole lot of sense…what with our forced existance and forced entry into the salvation lottery.
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“salvation lottery”? - if the use of such a phrase at this point isn’t clear evidence that Zat isn’t even trying to understand, I don’t know what is
 
Marc_Anthony said:
So, when you make a hypothetical we can’t change it because it’s YOUR hypothetical. When WE make a hypothetical it’s not good enough and you need to alter it to reflect your innaccurate view of God?

Your analogy was totally off. Sorry.

You claimed you were “expanding” his analogy, when in reality you changed it completely. That was intellectually dishonest. If you wanted to make a different analogy you should have said it was a different analogy, not an expanded form of the first analogy.
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The analogy was certainly off, but replying to one analogy with another that is supposed to be a better analogy is a perfectly legitimate argumentative move. The thing is, one should probably explain why the original analogy is inaccurate or inadequate compared to the proffered replacement.
 
Zatzat said:
Let’s take your analogy a little further.

Picture a mother and child.

Mom says , ’ either love me or reject me’. If you love me, I’ll make your life very comfortable and shower you with love all the rest of your days!

If you reject me, I’ll give you what you want, my complete absence. I’ll lock you in the basement, turn out the lights and leave you down there forever.

Now that’s a better analogy. 👍
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What makes it better??

(Do you have any real arguments or do you really like to just repeat your opinion again and again while ignoring those who point out why it is wrong?)
 
Betterave said:
The analogy was certainly off, but replying to one analogy with another that is supposed to be a better analogy is a perfectly legitimate argumentative move. The thing is, one should probably explain why the original analogy is inaccurate or inadequate compared to the proffered replacement.
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I agree. Zatzat didn’t say that he was posting a better analogy. He claimed he was “expanding” on the original analogy. This is not semantics, it implies that he was taking the original analogy to its ultimate end when he actually changed some of the already given points of the analogy. He was tring to embarrass Tantum Ergo by making it seem as if his analogy led to that conclusion, when it was a completely different, and innaccurate, analogy.

I have nothing against Zatzat and have discussed this with him politely and with interest, but this was an intellectually dishonest post that he should not have made.
 
It was, well, perhaps not intellectually dishonest, but intellectually ‘slippery’. Especially since I had already ‘called him out’ so to speak by noting that characteristically in his threads he sets out parameters and refuses to allow anything ‘else’ into the discussion and that he has already tried to limit or revise other people’s discussions into those parameters.

Oh, I’m a she, BTW. (With grown children which is probably why the ‘mother’ analogy came so quickly to hand.)
 
Tantum_ergo said:
It was, well, perhaps not intellectually dishonest, but intellectually ‘slippery’. Especially since I had already ‘called him out’ so to speak by noting that characteristically in his threads he sets out parameters and refuses to allow anything ‘else’ into the discussion and that he has already tried to limit or revise other people’s discussions into those parameters.
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Which is what he tried to do with yours. You made an analogy, he claimed he’d “expand” it and instead he revised then acted as if the conclusion drawn from his analogy would be the same conclusion as the one drawn from your analogy.
Tantum_ergo said:
Oh, I’m a she, BTW. (With grown children which is probably why the ‘mother’ analogy came so quickly to hand.)
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Whoops, my bad. Sorry, Ma’am. 😉
 
Zatzat said:
Show me the proof that your God exists or admit that he doesn’t! 🤷
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Ah yes the shrieking self-righteous atheist pose.

How about prove to us God doesn’t exist or admit you’re an immature troll who has nothing better to do than come to a Catholic forum and insult people for thinking differently than yourself?
 
Zatzat said:
…if your God is real, I want him to leave me alone.
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Then why do you persistently ask us to prove that He exists?

Furthermore, assuming He is real, what is He doing to you that is so bothersome?

If He is not real, who is doing what you perceive is being done?

Peace,
dante
 
Zatzat said:
I’m glad I’m not alone in seeing that the responses have been very predictable and very unsatisfying. Why there’s been at least one response that basically said ’ cause that’s how it is and you don’t get to make the rules.’

Of course, the customary ’ you’re an angry Atheist’ and ’ I actually believe in God but am resentful’ have also reared their heads.

Without one decent answer that doesn’t defy common sense and rationality. I’m convinced that the dilemma I’ve presented is insurmountable.
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Since you had no consciousness at the moment of your conception, creation, whatever you call it, you could not possibly have been forced. Force requires resistance. You were simply created. At some point after your creation and consciousness, you somehow, somewhere, because of some cause, developed for yourself this fallacy of being forced. You feel forced now - that is not disputed. We must ponder why it is that you feel forced. And, it is only a feeling.
 
po18guy said:
Since you had no consciousness at the moment of your conception, creation, whatever you call it, you could not possibly have been forced. Force requires resistance. You were simply created. At some point after your creation and consciousness, you somehow, somewhere, because of some cause, developed for yourself this fallacy of being forced. You feel forced now - that is not disputed. We must ponder why it is that you feel forced. And, it is only a feeling.
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Interesting point.
 
Zatzat said:
There is no evidence to discount.
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The only “evidence” of you being forced into existence is an emotion which produces the feeling that you were. You have not one shred of evidence that you were forced into anything. The burden of proof is on you, since you make the assertion.

Conversely, neither is there evidence that anyone ever begged to come into existence. Neither those who exist, nor those who do not exist are able to provide any such evidence.

Further, would you argue that those who do not exist somehow stand as “evidence” that they begged to exist and were refused? Or that they were being forced into existence, but successfully resisted being created? Wouldn’t they have to exist before they could resist?
 
Zatzat said:
There isn’t a shred of evidence that a God, let alone the God of Abraham exists.
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What is the evidence that you (not your body) exist?

BTW If you believe your body is all you have you are mindless - which explains a lot! 🙂
 
dostoyevskyfan:

Additionally. Such a confession would be an imperfect one, albeit frowned on but tolerated. This too would need to be worked on which will call for an expected perfection to a love of God and the ideal confession.

Andy
 
DanteAlighieri said:
Then why do you persistently ask us to prove that He exists?

Furthermore, assuming He is real, what is He doing to you that is so bothersome?

If He is not real, who is doing what you perceive is being done?

Peace,
dante
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If your specific God is real;

Forcing our existence and forcing us to take part in his forced scheme of salvation.
 
po18guy said:
Further, would you argue that those who do not exist somehow stand as “evidence” that they begged to exist and were refused? Or that they were being forced into existence, but successfully resisted being created? Wouldn’t they have to exist before they could resist?
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The Catholic Church does not teach nor believe that God enters into a series of discussions with prospective souls regarding the prospect of his willing them into existence.
 
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