God gave us Reason, not Religion

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Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Atheists think they can set God’s revelations from different cultures against each other to “prove” that God’s revelation as given to men in terms men can understand is false.

The problem with this is that God chose ONE “line” to communicate direct revelation to for the benefit of ALL mankind.


I think we could have a fun discussion about this, so if I have a chance, I may start a separate thread on it.

I enjoyed getting your perspective, and we’ve touched on many interesting topics.
Read G. K. Chesterton.

If you want a great intro to some SERIOUSLY interesting thinking, he’s the master which those who admire him can only see from a very VERY great distance.
I realized, though, that I failed to understand your answer to the question I originally had about this statement of yours:
Quote:Once you accept that the final choice has been directly after that moment between life and death, the result of that choice, which is FINAL as we are told it is final, which therefore CAN’T be “rehabilitated out of” because it’s FINAL, is respected by God because He has said He will never violate our free will.
How do you reconcile “respecting a choice” with never allowing us to revisit that choice once we have more certain information?
When a time limit has been set, there must be a meaning to that limit.

The meaning of the time limit imposed by “earthly life” is that after the limit one’s choices have been finally made, at least in regards to one’s final disposition.

The fact is that there has always been enough information given by God DURING ONE’S LIFETIME to choose God or not-God.

Once that “final choice” has been made within the bounds of “earthly life”, the word FINAL within “final choice”, to have meaning, must be FINAL and everlasting.

Those who have “more information” given by God during their lifetime are held to a “more stingent standard” in their choosing.

Those who have “less information”, are held to a “less stringent” standard.

Therefore, your being here is tightening up your “standard” considerably. 🙂
How is removing free will not violating it?
Because God NEVER removes (negates) our free will, ever,… even after earthly death. Therefore, it is not violated.

But the “rules” are that once your time is up, your decision is FINAL, and you have to live with it,… forever.
 
prove it. show me 3 examples of ‘reasonable evidences’ that had been discounted out of hand by skeptics.

good luck.

Reply: (Sorry for the delay in responding, been busy for some days) But the format of your challenge is another “begging the question”, thinly veiled. Zola at Lourdes is just the most prominent of many refusals (by skeptics and christian fundamentalists alike 🤷 ) to put the cards on the table and look at the evidence. The “authenticated” healing at Lourdes (And Fatima) have been reigourously documented–and do NOT fall into the category of spontaneous remissions that occurs outside of a religious context–we are talking about rapid cellular regeneration and the like.

Thats just him.[regarding Zola at Lourdes] There are incredible bigots in every camp. Even in yours.

Me, I believe that miracles can happen. I just have yet to witness or verify one.
Reply: I believe genocides can happen–but I personaly never witnessed one
 
But the format of your challenge is another “begging the question”
apparently you dont know what ‘begging the question’ is.
Zola at Lourdes is just the most prominent of many refusals (by skeptics and christian fundamentalists alike ) to put the cards on the table and look at the evidence. The “authenticated” healing at Lourdes (And Fatima) have been reigourously documented–and do NOT fall into the category of spontaneous remissions that occurs outside of a religious context–we are talking about rapid cellular regeneration and the like.
source please.
Reply: I believe genocides can happen–but I personaly never witnessed one
I said ‘witnessed’ or ‘VERIFIED’. The holocaust is well verified.
 
apparently you dont know what ‘begging the question’ is.

Reply: Yes I do, even cited a definition in reguards to your prior usage of “BtQ” and you let them (both the definition and the charge) stand
I said ‘witnessed’ or ‘VERIFIED’. The holocaust is well verified.
Reply: you stated "Me, I believe that miracles can happen. I just have yet to witness or verify one."–which indicates you only believe in events you personally witness or verify–the reason I used the Holocaust was to bring out you do accept the testimony of other people for events you have no way of witnessing yourself–i.e., historical criteria. So, which is it?
 
the reason I used the Holocaust was to bring out you do accept the testimony of other people for events you have no way of witnessing yourself–i.e., historical criteria. So, which is it?
testimonies are good enough for claims that occur naturally.

But if the claims are fantastic (like UFO abductions, dancing sun, faith healing, milk drinking hindu statues, etc) then testimonies are insufficient.
 
testimonies are good enough for claims that occur naturally.

But if the claims are fantastic (like UFO abductions, dancing sun, faith healing, milk drinking hindu statues, etc) then testimonies are insufficient.

But also;
“Me, I believe that miracles can happen…”
Why?
 
You know i kind of agree with “God gave us reason not religion”. That statement reminds me of C.S Lewis’s The Great Divorce.
In the story a spirit in Heaven says to another,“Religion? We know nothing of religion here…only God.”.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned we would have known no religion only God.
 
You know i kind of agree with “God gave us reason not religion”. That statement reminds me of C.S Lewis’s The Great Divorce.
In the story a spirit in Heaven says to another,“Religion? We know nothing of religion here…only God.”.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned we would have known no religion only God.
Well,… since “re-ligion” means to “RE Bind”,… if we’d never “UN Bound” from God, we’d have no need to “RE Bind”,… would we…?

But,… since we DID “UN Bind” ourselves from God, to not try to “RE Bind” would be not wanting that “Binding”,… and that would be actively NOT WANTING God,…

…which is wanting HELL.

Therefore,… we should want “RE Binding” to God, which is why religion exists and is a universal human need.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
I would argue that the “binding” aspect of religion has more to do with community between people than rebinding with God.
 
Its not really mutually exclusive. Religion is not always unreasonable, though on many cases it has beliefs that can be quite irrational. I’m sure everyone would agree that each one of us possess the gift of reasoning. But since everyone disagrees on which religion is true, then its safe to say that God didnt really give a religion to everyone. So God only gave us a talent for figuring things out, not a system of instructions that already figured things out. Religion is merely a personal point of view. Not a fact for everyone. 🙂
Because your personal view allows you a belief in God (based in reason), one might wonder what you will pursue to learn more of God. It seems obvious to me that only God can reveal God; within the RC Church, we acknowledge as much, basing our faith in both Scripture and tradition and humbly dependent on grace.
 
Can’t God reveal His truth to anyone, no matter what their religious beliefs?
 
Well,… since “re-ligion” means to “RE Bind”,… if we’d never “UN Bound” from God, we’d have no need to “RE Bind”,… would we…?

But,… since we DID “UN Bind” ourselves from God, to not try to “RE Bind” would be not wanting that “Binding”,… and that would be actively NOT WANTING God,…

…which is wanting HELL.

Therefore,… we should want “RE Binding” to God, which is why religion exists and is a universal human need.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
Don’t misunderstand me of course I want God. However the term religion is man made to distinguish belief systems. God gave Adam and Eve mind,free will,reason not a belief system. It is man who gave me religion(necessary now because of the fall) and God who gave me reason to sift through religion to find Him.

In the beginning there was only the Creator and His created and in the end it will only be the Creator and His created. In between it all it its all man made. Hence,“Religion we no nothing of religion here…only God.”.

But only to communicate with my fellow man I am Catholic and that is my religion. I do accept the argument, though, that the Catholic belief system,or religion, was given to us by God to “bind” ourselves back to Him.
 
Don’t misunderstand me of course I want God.

However the term religion is man made to distinguish belief systems. God gave Adam and Eve mind,free will,reason not a belief system. It is man who gave me religion(necessary now because of the fall) and God who gave me reason to sift through religion to find Him.
God gave you a “need” to find Him. That is a “need” for re-binding, religion, to Him.

God gave you reason so that you could see that you DO need religion. Without reason, there is no “understanding” ANYTHING, least of all your need for religion.

Reason is only the “perceptual method” of discovering you need something.

Religion is the necessary “drive”, motivation, that keeps you striving toward what that need IS,… which is God.
In the beginning there was only the Creator and His created and in the end it will only be the Creator and His created. In between it all it its all man made. Hence,“Religion we no nothing of religion here…only God.”.
The angels have a religion, because they are separate from, though not separat**ed **from, God.

Their “re-binding” is what they do. That is there religion. They adore Him. They carry out His wishes.

That is what OUR re-binding, our religion, should be. We should adore Him, and carry out His wishes as He has told us to do through His Church.

To say that the angels have no religion is to say the angels are utterly one with God, and have nothing to do for Him.
But only to communicate with my fellow man I am Catholic and that is my religion. I do accept the argument, though, that the Catholic belief system,or religion, was given to us by God to “bind” ourselves back to Him.
Amen.

The CULTURAL aspects of the Church are as they are to accomodate the human aspects of the Church.

Just as Jesus was fully God and fully MAN, the Church must work within a human framework, as Jesus did.

To say “religion”, the Church, as cultural artifact, is invalid (which I don’t think you mean at all) is exactly equivalent to saying that Jesus was not fully man, but something else.

That is an old old heresy.
 
Can’t God reveal His truth to anyone, no matter what their religious beliefs?
Of course.

Go out and look at a magnificent sunset.

Go out and pick up the catechism to read.

Go to mass.

None of these things are dependent on being Catholic, or anything else, other than WANTING to do them.
 
Of course.

Go out and look at a magnificent sunset.

Go out and pick up the catechism to read.

Go to mass.

None of these things are dependent on being Catholic, or anything else, other than WANTING to do them.
What about reading from the Torah?
Reading from the Quran?
Going to synagouge?
Going to Mosque?
 
What about reading from the Torah?
Reading from the Quran?
Going to synagouge?
Going to Mosque?
valke 2, I see from your profile that you’re Jewish. How wonderful that you’re here. There’s a current thread that might interest you although you’ll almost certainly find the intital posts disturbing and disrespectful. However, that theme is soon stopped.

Here’s the link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=191365
 
God gave you a “need” to find Him. That is a “need” for re-binding, religion, to Him.

God gave you reason so that you could see that you DO need religion. Without reason, there is no “understanding” ANYTHING, least of all your need for religion.

Reason is only the “perceptual method” of discovering you need something.

Religion is the necessary “drive”, motivation, that keeps you striving toward what that need IS,… which is God.

The angels have a religion, because they are separate from, though not separat**ed **from, God.

Their “re-binding” is what they do. That is there religion. They adore Him. They carry out His wishes.

That is what OUR re-binding, our religion, should be. We should adore Him, and carry out His wishes as He has told us to do through His Church.

To say that the angels have no religion is to say the angels are utterly one with God, and have nothing to do for Him.

Amen.

The CULTURAL aspects of the Church are as they are to accomodate the human aspects of the Church.

Just as Jesus was fully God and fully MAN, the Church must work within a human framework, as Jesus did.

To say “religion”, the Church, as cultural artifact, is invalid (which I don’t think you mean at all) is exactly equivalent to saying that Jesus was not fully man, but something else.

That is an old old heresy.
I think we are saying the same thing…just differently. To your arguement ; “Religion” as the drive towards God, I disagree that it is religion. I belive it is a infinite Desire to know truth, which is of course God, as the drive. I think we do agree though that man has a certain “drive” to know God. Religion, I think, is the text to find the truth i.e. God.

As far as the angels having a religion. I don’t know…religion,to me is a concept only needed after the Fall. Adam and Eve and the angels,before the Fall,needed no term Christianity…as a religion. Nor even the term Judaism. They were simply existing with God as Creator and created.

But I think were basically on the same page
 
Its not really mutually exclusive. Religion is not always unreasonable, though on many cases it has beliefs that can be quite irrational. I’m sure everyone would agree that each one of us possess the gift of reasoning. But since everyone disagrees on which religion is true, then its safe to say that God didnt really give a religion to everyone. So God only gave us a talent for figuring things out, not a system of instructions that already figured things out. Religion is merely a personal point of view. Not a fact for everyone. 🙂
It does have beliefs that deal with mystical things. If God revealed all to us now, some of those things we could not understand using our human reasoning and intellect. These things will be revealed when we return home. So there are things that are mysteries. This is what St. Augustine meant when he said, “I believe so that I may understand”. He needed to advance in knowledge parallel to his maturing Faith (2Cor2). Only then would God reveal further knowledge has he merited.

All religions were fill-ins until scripture was fullfilled in Christ when he presented his true Church. All the churches became redundant at Pentecost when the true Apostolic Church was founded. That includes Jewry as well as the religions of the East and Muslim,Budist and the like. But that did not happen, and the result is what you see today, many lost people struggling with has many doctrines as there are human desires.

The Catholic religion isn’t as closed and inflexible has some would portray, nor is there a designated timetable where every person requires to have formed a final opinion. It is important that every Catholic must be in conformity with what the Church says is DeFide and this means eventually every person must accept it.

The last categories of De Fide teaching allows for knowledgable growth and absorption time. The Catholic Faith provides for a “hierarchy of truths”. Some doctrines have been formally defined by the Church (i.e. dogmas) and are essentially irrevocable and non-reformable. Other doctrines do not carry such a weight but are generally believed to be true by the majority of theologians.

From his book The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott distinguishes between the level of certainty a Catholic may have towards any teaching of the Catholic Church (p.9-10). Here are the last 3 examples…:

Sententia Fidei Proxima - A teaching proximate to Faith is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church. (Example: Mary as Co-Mediaterix)

Sententia Communis - Common teaching is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally. (Example: Christ’s soul possessed infused knowledge.)

Sententia Probabablis - Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded. Those which are regarded as being in a agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church are called **pious opinions
**The least degree of certainity is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata), which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church. (Example: Rigorist (strict) view of “No Salvation Outside the Church”, or the existence of Limbo.)

We also have some respected individuals who would frown on any stifling of contemplative reasoning.

Frs. McCarthy, Rumble and the late Card. Msgr. F. J. Sheen( Radio Replies Vol I) have this to say concerning reasoning:

607 q. So, Catholics must strangle their reason and swallow anything the Church teaches, however unlikely?

a. The strangling of reason is left to people who are ready to believe anything they hear about the Catholic Church. But the Church asks no man to strangle his reason, and says that it is heresy to say that it ought to be.
Nor must Catholics accept anything however unlikely. If a thing seems unlikely, they should suspend their judgement until they are secure evidence of it’s truths or falsity, and then decide accordingly.

611 q. At least concerning the Catholic doctrine, you believe what the Church teaches, and consider further investigation sinful?

a. I certainly believe implicitly the official and defined teachings of the Catholic Church since Christ said “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be as the heathen.” ** But I may investigate as much as I wish.
** The more I find out about the truth taught by the Catholic Church, the better the Church is pleased. It is one thing to deny a docrine; quite another to investigate it’s full significance. But not all the investigation in the world will ever prove a single dogma of the Catholic Church.

AndyF
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Of course.

Go out and look at a magnificent sunset.

Go out and pick up the catechism to read.

Go to mass.

None of these things are dependent on being Catholic, or anything else, other than WANTING to do them.*

What about reading from the Torah?
Reading from the Quran?
Going to synagouge?
Going to Mosque?
Go for it…!

All those things will bring you, quite nicely, to the Church, if you deal with them “rationally”.

Or,… they’ll satisfy you with what they DO have to offer, whichm while not being the fullness of the truth, are to some extent an expression of the truth.

But the position of the agnostic/atheist is that there is NO rational way that doing those things brings you any nearer the truth, because the truth is utterly unknowable.

My answer (above) was in response to this:
Originally Posted by Valke2 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Can’t God reveal His truth to anyone, no matter what their religious beliefs?
God reveals His truth to us constantly and in varied ways, and regardless of what our “religion” is.

I’m partial to getting my information about “God-stuff” from the Church, for rather obvious reasons, which is why I suggested that source as what I consider the best one.

Thanks for mentioning some other sources, though. 🙂
 
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