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PetraG
Guest
He said He did and the angel told Mary He would, so your premise must be incorrect.
How did you decide that there was such a thing as a “lack of potentialities”?
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How did you decide that there was such a thing as a “lack of potentialities”?
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margaret42
Guest
Since God is God, He can take on any “nature” He wants. Jesus , being God, took a lower form, humanity, so that we could be close to Him, and eternally experience love.
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Dovekin
Guest
Luke 2: 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
I do not see how your position responds to Jesus growing in wisdom and stature. You sound almost like a monothelite…
I do not see how your position responds to Jesus growing in wisdom and stature. You sound almost like a monothelite…
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Benadam
Guest
It mentions both Jesus and John the Baptist growing in wisdom and stature among men and God.
John the baptists growth was being determined by his own will to it’s proper end in Glory. He was in a state of becoming. John was born with a soul that had potential power. The potential power in John’s soul is reduced through the life in the body. This is the growing in wisdom and stature. It’s John determining his own growth. John is in a state of becoming what God intends. He has prepared himself to enter into the Beatific Vision. This is final beatitude eternally united to God. A soul in Glory as that is, is immutable.
Jesus’ growth is determined and not subject to a state of becoming. His soul is conceived in the state that John’s soul is becoming. Jesus is conceived with a soul assumed to His Divinty. This is the very same state that souls of Saints enjoy in the Beatific Vision. They enjoy eternal life assumed to God. They are in an immutable state and this is the state in which Jesus entered earthly life.
The immutable quality of His growth is proven when death is not able to mutate Jesus’ proper end in eternal immutable life with an immutable body. His growth has always been determined rather than being determined,.Immutable growth
I went on and on but if you understand something about the Beatific vision and understand that Jesus soul was a Glorified soul at conception a soul beatified in the Beatific Vision, the immutable growth makes sense.
John the baptists growth was being determined by his own will to it’s proper end in Glory. He was in a state of becoming. John was born with a soul that had potential power. The potential power in John’s soul is reduced through the life in the body. This is the growing in wisdom and stature. It’s John determining his own growth. John is in a state of becoming what God intends. He has prepared himself to enter into the Beatific Vision. This is final beatitude eternally united to God. A soul in Glory as that is, is immutable.
Jesus’ growth is determined and not subject to a state of becoming. His soul is conceived in the state that John’s soul is becoming. Jesus is conceived with a soul assumed to His Divinty. This is the very same state that souls of Saints enjoy in the Beatific Vision. They enjoy eternal life assumed to God. They are in an immutable state and this is the state in which Jesus entered earthly life.
The immutable quality of His growth is proven when death is not able to mutate Jesus’ proper end in eternal immutable life with an immutable body. His growth has always been determined rather than being determined,.Immutable growth
I went on and on but if you understand something about the Beatific vision and understand that Jesus soul was a Glorified soul at conception a soul beatified in the Beatific Vision, the immutable growth makes sense.
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AlNg
Guest
The Bible tells us that He can and He did change his mind:
Exodus 32:14
Jeremiah 26:14
Amos 7: 6
Amos 7: 3
Jeremiah 18:8
Jonah 3:10
Jeremiah 26: 13
Jeremiah 42: 10
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AlNg
Guest
That is because of His omnipotence? However, how does immutability work if a person can change and take on a different nature, isn’t that a mutation of sorts?
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margaret42
Guest
I wouldn’t think so. God works through people, scripture, “burning bushes”. And through anything that enhances our faith. But He is still an unchanging God, as we believe. make any sense to you?
Think of a telephone conversation maybe. People can learn things through us, without our changing in any way.
Think of a telephone conversation maybe. People can learn things through us, without our changing in any way.
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StAugustine
Guest
This is just anthropomorphic language. It’s Gos using analogy to our benefit.
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Benadam
Guest
Divine immutable nature assumes the lower mutable nature and the lower nature is assumed into immutable divine life. Jesus’ human soul is Glorified by the Word That assumes it. Jesus is a Gloried human being at conception…Divine Nature can assume human nature and become man but human nature can’t assume divine nature and become God.
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AlNg
Guest
So there can be a change whereby Divine nature becomes man?
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Benadam
Guest
Yeah, that’s what happened. The Son of God assumed human nature the fruit of Mary’s womb. Jesus soul is conceived in Glory. Human nature takes on immutability. Divine stays unchanged
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
There is a longer and more detailed discussion up thread regarding this. Divine nature is altogether immutable. It is perfect. Nothing can be added to God.Benadam:
So there can be a change whereby Divine nature becomes man?
God created us and exceeds us. That which is divine is united to man. It is man that changes/is perfected not God.
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John_Martin
Guest
God is unchanging AND the Son became flesh / human because our LORD’s “movement” is operation rather than “becoming”.
But his operation is one thing only: simply “knowing”, and what he knows has being as he knows it, eternally,
Yet, how could that be? Since he knows “all” and knows it all “eternally”, then would not all that is known also be eternal? Wouldn’t we be eternal, since he knows us eternally?
Not really, for the simple reason that our Lord, whose name is ‘I AM’, does not know himself as the single mover of all creation / creatures. He does not know himself as the single cause of creation.
What he knows eternally is himself causing individual “things” in co-operation with the causing and the willing, of contingent creation / creatures.
And when a contingent creature moves willingly in a “match” with God knowing, then the dual cause is in effect - God knows eternally himself overshadowing Mary at a temporal and contingent moment when the woman is found saying, “Behold the handmaid of the LORD, let it be done to me according to your word.”
The “new act” of Jesus’ conception is temporal, contingent, because the “proximate cause” (Mary) did not know this event eternally, yet the First Cause / Principle Cause / Final Cause (God knowing) knew it eternally (his co-causal movement shared with a contingent being, whom he always knew knowing, yet she knew temporally in the speech of the Angel of ‘I AM’. At the moment in time when Mary knew what God eternally knows, the dual cause of the Son becoming flesh happened, in time, yet with God not changing.
We are Servants of the LORD, called to do / pray / speak / know what he wants us to do / pray / speak / know, and word has been given to us of what to do / pray / speak / know, such that we as his servants will eventually be a temporal and contingent co-knowing of his eternal knowing where his will happens on earth when we know (causally) in temporal unison with his eternal knowing.
John Martin
But his operation is one thing only: simply “knowing”, and what he knows has being as he knows it, eternally,
Yet, how could that be? Since he knows “all” and knows it all “eternally”, then would not all that is known also be eternal? Wouldn’t we be eternal, since he knows us eternally?
Not really, for the simple reason that our Lord, whose name is ‘I AM’, does not know himself as the single mover of all creation / creatures. He does not know himself as the single cause of creation.
What he knows eternally is himself causing individual “things” in co-operation with the causing and the willing, of contingent creation / creatures.
And when a contingent creature moves willingly in a “match” with God knowing, then the dual cause is in effect - God knows eternally himself overshadowing Mary at a temporal and contingent moment when the woman is found saying, “Behold the handmaid of the LORD, let it be done to me according to your word.”
The “new act” of Jesus’ conception is temporal, contingent, because the “proximate cause” (Mary) did not know this event eternally, yet the First Cause / Principle Cause / Final Cause (God knowing) knew it eternally (his co-causal movement shared with a contingent being, whom he always knew knowing, yet she knew temporally in the speech of the Angel of ‘I AM’. At the moment in time when Mary knew what God eternally knows, the dual cause of the Son becoming flesh happened, in time, yet with God not changing.
We are Servants of the LORD, called to do / pray / speak / know what he wants us to do / pray / speak / know, and word has been given to us of what to do / pray / speak / know, such that we as his servants will eventually be a temporal and contingent co-knowing of his eternal knowing where his will happens on earth when we know (causally) in temporal unison with his eternal knowing.
John Martin
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BrunoMaria
Guest
The OP statement:
God has no potentiality - so He can’t take on a human nature.
is blasphemy in itself. To say “God has no potential” is so terribly ludicrous, that you can hear hell jubilate up to here.
God who is omnipotent has no potentiality. A sentence coined in hell, duplicated and spread even into CAF.
Don’t you know, that Jesus Christ is God in God? Didn’t He take on a human nature when He was incarnated? First grade religious lessons must be applied here.
I wonder how such thread is possible in a Catholicc forum.
Yours
Bruno
God has no potentiality - so He can’t take on a human nature.
is blasphemy in itself. To say “God has no potential” is so terribly ludicrous, that you can hear hell jubilate up to here.
God who is omnipotent has no potentiality. A sentence coined in hell, duplicated and spread even into CAF.
Don’t you know, that Jesus Christ is God in God? Didn’t He take on a human nature when He was incarnated? First grade religious lessons must be applied here.
I wonder how such thread is possible in a Catholicc forum.
Yours
Bruno
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John_Martin
Guest
It is the contingent human, Mary, who had potential to CO-OPERATE with God, to CO-CAUSE with God.
God NEVER knew the Son becoming Man apart from a JOINT-CAUSAL Act.
The LORD, ‘I AM’, ALWAYS knew that when the contingent human named Mary jointly knew what he knows, that she would be the Mother of the Son of the Most High, then the Son would become Man. She did not ALWAYS know, she knew in a moment of temporal recognition, and suddenly she and God knew TOGETHER as CO-CAUSAL AGENTS.
Everything God does on earth in time is with his servants in CO-OPERATION, both with his Angels and his Human Servants. That is how he appears to “change in time”, yet does not ever change.
God’s CO-OPERATOR is the one with potential, and therefore we can see the Will of God happen temporally due to the servants’ Co-Operation, Co-Knowing, Co-Causing.
John Martin
God NEVER knew the Son becoming Man apart from a JOINT-CAUSAL Act.
The LORD, ‘I AM’, ALWAYS knew that when the contingent human named Mary jointly knew what he knows, that she would be the Mother of the Son of the Most High, then the Son would become Man. She did not ALWAYS know, she knew in a moment of temporal recognition, and suddenly she and God knew TOGETHER as CO-CAUSAL AGENTS.
Everything God does on earth in time is with his servants in CO-OPERATION, both with his Angels and his Human Servants. That is how he appears to “change in time”, yet does not ever change.
God’s CO-OPERATOR is the one with potential, and therefore we can see the Will of God happen temporally due to the servants’ Co-Operation, Co-Knowing, Co-Causing.
John Martin
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Dovekin
Guest
Summa Theologica I.9.1 Is God altogether immutable?
Reply: “because it was shown above that there is some first being, whom we call God; and that this first being must be pure act, without the admixture of any potentiality, for the reason that, absolutely, potentiality is posterior to act. Now everything which is in any way changed, is in some way in potentiality. Hence it is evident that it is impossible for God to be in any way changeable.”
This, and similar passages, is the OP’s starting point.
Reply: “because it was shown above that there is some first being, whom we call God; and that this first being must be pure act, without the admixture of any potentiality, for the reason that, absolutely, potentiality is posterior to act. Now everything which is in any way changed, is in some way in potentiality. Hence it is evident that it is impossible for God to be in any way changeable.”
This, and similar passages, is the OP’s starting point.
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PJM
Guest
My friend BOTH Jesus as God with two natures happened and the Real Presence too is a reality; so how about YOU PROVING that they are not
God bless you, so let’s see YOU disprove them.
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
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