God in timelss state cannot know what is the current time

[catholictiger]

I think we are all tackling this the wrong way.

Why do you believe God is in a timeless state?

To say he is outside of out concept of time does not mean he is in a timeless state as you define it.

the way I understand it is that God experiences all actualities at once.

God is existent at all times in the cosmos at once so he experiences all things that ever have been ever will be and things as they are now at once. For God he still experiences the assumption, the agony in the garden, your birth death all at once.

 

[Bahman]

WOW :bigyikes: That is a momentous declaration on your part.

Please do show us some concrete proof you have to able to assert that “time doesn’t exist”.

If you have achieved this feat, you are probably going to be nominated to the Nobel in Physics.
On the other hand. We can prove that God can interact with us at any given instant He chooses of the universe existance, without having to mess with “time”.
Just by the contingency principle.

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Time as it is defined by physicist/philosopher is the rate at which things changes.

The proof is in fact very simple: consider that whole universe freezes at one moment, how an observer could measure/feel time in universe in this state. All clocks that we have are based on something which changes with specific rate and that allows us to assign the changes to time, without that we couldn’t measure the rate of change so called time. Time appears as imaginary part of space-time continuum in relativistic theory which means that is not a real quantity like space.

 

[lakotak]

No offence, I do believe that Jesus was a man like others. As it is explained before, it is logically impossible that God perform creation then come and incarnate as a man, since this requires two consecutive actions from God which is logically impossible from a being in state of timeless.

None taken. How can you, a finite creation, presume to know what is possible and impossible for God to achieve? You have placed limitation on God to your own finite understanding. If God could not do all that is logical to do, as defined by Himself, then He would not be a supreme being. How do you know what God’s logic is? How are you assured that God cannot incarnate from a timeless state? I would think you would have to have some concrete basis for this assumption. You are a finite creation attempting to interpret an infinite God as to what He can and cannot do. This seems very illogical.

 

[JerryZ]

Time as it is defined by physicist/philosopher is the rate at which things changes.

The proof is in fact very simple: consider that whole universe freezes at one moment, how an observer could measure/feel time in universe in this state. All clocks that we have are based on something which changes with specific rate and that allows us to assign the changes to time, without that we couldn’t measure the rate of change so called time. Time appears as imaginary part of space-time continuum in relativistic theory which means that is not a real quantity like space.

Well if time does not exist then we have a huge problem since it has been demonstrated scientifically that time slows down for an object moving faster relative to another moving slower.

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[Bahman]

I think we are all tackling this the wrong way.

Why do you believe God is in a timeless state?

To say he is outside of out concept of time does not mean he is in a timeless state as you define it.

What is timeless state? It is the state of being with no change since otherwise changes implement time. It is state absolute peace.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What is timeless state? It is the state of being with no change since otherwise changes implement time. It is state absolute peace.

The Christian God is not reflected to be in such a state.

 

[catholictiger]

Well if time does not exist then we have a huge problem since it has been demonstrated scientifically that time slows down for an object moving faster relative to another moving slower.

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science isn’t philosophy I know you aren’t responding to me but philosophically I don’t see how it is possible for time to exist in reality. I think there is a way you can explain the phenomena of time without saying time exists but I don’t know science well enough to do this.

 

[Bahman]

Well if time does not exist then we have a huge problem since it has been demonstrated scientifically that time slows down for an object moving faster relative to another moving slower.

As for relativistic theory, we always need a clock in each frame work synchronize properly with other clock. The theory says that the clock which is in a framework, moving away from an observer, does click with slower rate compared to clock in observer framework.

 

[catholictiger]

The Christian God is not reflected to be in such a state.

but God doesn’t change he is the same for all eternity so I don’t see the issue of saying that God is in an unchanging timeless state (if time exists)

 

[Jon_S_1]

but God doesn’t change he is the same for all eternity so I don’t see the issue of saying that God is in an unchanging timeless state (if time exists)

God does not change in nature or quality.

There is however some sort of idea of forward movement in eternity.
Without such a belief, ideas like Purgatory, the Final Judgement, Angels and Saints etc… Fall apart.

God is not just some ethereal force of absolute peace. As the OP describes.

God is the unmoving mover. He is the first cause. Naturally as finite creatures we cannot understand fully how this occurs, but hey it occurs is more apparent.

 

[catholictiger]

God does not change in nature or quality.

There is however some sort of idea of forward movement in eternity.
Without such a belief, ideas like Purgatory, the Final Judgement, Angels and Saints etc… Fall apart.

God is not just some ethereal force of absolute peace. As the OP describes.

God is the unmoving mover. He is the first cause. Naturally as finite creatures we cannot understand fully how this occurs, but hey it occurs is more apparent.

discussing this philosophically it could make sense how God who is immutable would exist in a timeless space.

Its also possible that heaven is changing and could be explained that it has time. Which can explain these things. But still God experiences the fall of the angels the fall of man the final judgement all at once.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Time cannot be created so it cannot exist in mind of God.

Is this a philosophical assertion or a scientific one?

Science does not deal with “creation” as I understand it, in terms of a “creator”. But there are certainly those physicists who opine that “time” is simply a property of the universe as a whole, and had a beginning.

 

[JerryZ]

As for relativistic theory, we always need a clock in each frame work synchronize properly with other clock. The theory says that the clock which is in a framework, moving away from an observer, does click with slower rate compared to clock in observer framework.

This is not theory, it has been demonstrated via repetible experiments that yelded the expected results within the predicted values.

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[Bahman]

the way I understand it is that God experiences all actualities at once.

Whether God could experience all actualities at once is subject of discussion that we can discuss it further if you wish. But the main focus of this thread is that God cannot possibly know the current state of creation. Being in state of timeless also means that God is causally is separated from creation so it could not act on creation.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Whether God could experience all actualities at once is subject of discussion that we can discuss it further if you wish. But the main focus of this thread is that God cannot possibly know the current state of creation. Being in state of timeless also means that God is causally is separated from creation so it could not act on creation.

This is a false premise.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Here is the argument which prove God in timeless state cannot distinguish what is the current time:

1. Time is a concept related to occurrence of events with specific rate
2. There is time attached to series of events and now by definition is the time at which we experience events
3. There are a before and after for the events which means that time has a direction
4. Timeless mind state means, no events, there is no before and after so there is no sense of direction for time, there is no experience when there is no events so there no concept of now
5. God is in state of timeless means, he could not experience creation, he could not distinguish the direction of time, and he could not distinguish now

Obviously, since God created a universe subject to time, He understands time. But time itself is not a thing, being, substance, essence, or nature, it is a function of the created being. As they say, " it comes with the territory. " And since God created the " territory, " He knows " what comes with it, " he knows the conditions and the functions of the beings He created.

What I have said is verified in the Scriptures you reject.
It is also demonstrated as true by the Theological/Philosophical teaching of St. Thomas.
which you also reject.

Obviously, this is a continuation of your never ending objections to the Christian understanding of God. These indicate your devotion to one of the erroneous cosmologies which have arisen since around the 16th century. All of them are non-realist to a greater or lesser extent. Fr. William A. Wallace O.P., a noted Scientist, Philosopher, Theologian, has identified the principle ones as :

1. Empiriocriticism, as epitomised by Ernst Mach and Rihard Avenarius. Expressed the view that there is no profound truth beyond the empirical - beyond what can be sensed. An anti-metaphysical view, to say the least.
2. Critique of Science as held by Henri Poincare’ and Pierre Duhem which placed science in a merely conjectural mode and reserved to the Philosophy of ST. Thomas the status of intellectual certitude
3. Logical Positivism as held by Moritz Schlick, a successor of Mach, and generally those of the Vienna school, which existed in Germany and Austria following WW1, many of whom immigrated to the U.S. prior to WW2 and were primarily responsible for the spread of that gospel in the U.S.
4. Neoempiricism, epitomised by Ernest Nagel and founded by him to counter the " dogmatic " empiricist of the Vienna school.
5. Louvain School, founded to reconcile the philosophy of St. Thomas with modern science.
6. Some more recent extremist varient of 1,3, or 4 such as Eliminativism

• From From a Realist Point of View, 1983, pgs 4-21 - a very challenging read

I would place you in 1,3, 4 or 6.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

None taken. How can you, a finite creation, presume to know what is possible and impossible for God to achieve? You have placed limitation on God to your own finite understanding. If God could not do all that is logical to do, as defined by Himself, then He would not be a supreme being. How do you know what God’s logic is? How are you assured that God cannot incarnate from a timeless state? I would think you would have to have some concrete basis for this assumption. You are a finite creation attempting to interpret an infinite God as to what He can and cannot do. This seems very illogical.

Gods logic is of course beyond our logic but it cannot be against our logic since a supper-logic hold sub-logic as a base otherwise nothing could be deduced. There are two simple facts used to show that God cannot perform any action on creation: first God is in state of timeless, second creation is in state of time, so as a result these two entities are casually isolated from each other because of interface problem.

 

[lakotak]

Whether God could experience all actualities at once is subject of discussion that we can discuss it further if you wish. But the main focus of this thread is that God cannot possibly know the current state of creation. Being in state of timeless also means that God is causally is separated from creation so it could not act on creation.

If God could not know the current state of creation from the eternal now, timelessness, then how is it possible that we exist here on earth. God is the giver of life and every second of our existence is dependent upon him. If he could not interact with us in our time from his timelessness, then why do we exits, how are we alive here in time?

 

[catholictiger]

Whether God could experience all actualities at once is subject of discussion that we can discuss it further if you wish. But the main focus of this thread is that God cannot possibly know the current state of creation. Being in state of timeless also means that God is causally is separated from creation so it could not act on creation.

I understand but that is my answer to the question and helps I think explain why he can know the current state of creation.

If God experiences all actualities at once he experiences the current state of creation and all other states of creation.

 

[catholictiger]

This is not theory, it has been demonstrated via repetible experiments that yelded the expected results within the predicted values.

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I don’t believe that the theory of relativity necessitates that time has a real existence in the world. What it does prove is that our concept of time is effected by gravity and speed.

When I and I’m guessing the other poster talk about time we are talking about a philosophical definition of time not a scientific one. They are two different fields and you can’t use one to disprove the other.

For example in science things exist because they have an impact on the way the world works. But that doesn’t mean that these things have matter and form. Is gravity something that has real existence or a real being or is it the property of mass and the larger the mass the larger the force of gravity.

Is time a real being or is it a proprety of the universe that is effected by speed and gravity.