God in timelss state cannot know what is the current time

[Bahman]

That seems odd to me as God spoke from a burning bush which would indicate that he was on the face of the earth. But there again he is not restricted to a physical body. I wonder if it boils down to our need to reason and rationalise even when we do not have the information or understanding to even get part way to the answer?

That seems odd to us, all people who know that timeless God leads to contradiction when God needs to perform an action and knows the state of creation.

 

[Bahman]

The only fallacy is your argument, that because God is outside of time He is somehow cut off from knowing about it.
That unfortunately makes assumptions that cannot be logically proven.

God in state of timeless is cut off from creation for a simple reason as following, if it not cut off then he could experience two consecutive events which means that God mind is state of time, since order of events define a direction which implies time.

And most importantly you fail to realize that God, CREATED time as well as space and all the matter within it.
The Bible tells us that He can and does interact with us on a regular basis and has done so since the beginning.

I have no problem with God interaction with creation, all I am saying is that God has to be in state of time in order to know the state of creation and can interact with it.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That seems odd to us, all people who know that timeless God leads to contradiction when God needs to perform an action and knows the state of creation.

Not when the timeless God is also omnipresent. Meaning present everywhere at all times.

God is not the greatest creature. Not one creature among many. Not some supreme being.

No

God Is. God is being. Through him all things are made and through him the universe functions.

God manifesting himself in a way that humans csn see or understand takes nothing from God.

He was in the burning bush and at every other inch of his creation at the same moment.

 

[Jon_S_1]

God in state of timeless is cut off from creation for a simple reason as following, if it not cut off then he could experience two consecutive events which means that God mind is state of time, since order of events define a direction which implies time.

I have no problem with God interaction with creation, all I am saying is that God has to be in state of time in order to know the state of creation and can interact with it.

I do not believe you understand what Christians mean by God. I am guessing you may be Hindu or influenced by Eastern thought in some way? The gods of the east are entirely different than the one True God.

Perhaps this video can help you.

“What Christians Mean by God”
youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI

 

[Bahman]

“Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.”

Thank you.

What is a dead world?

A dead world is a world that minimally the concept “I am/exist” can not be experienced.

What are you counting as “experiences?”

A thing is experienced when consciousness mind is exposed to a stimulus given by subconsciousness and that brings consciousness mind into state of alert/focus depending on nature of person and stimulus.

Whence cometh this “Timeless mind state” and why have you attributed the condition to God?

This was Gods attribute at time of creation but not after that. This was subject of several discussion in several threads.

How much experience have you had being outside of time?

Nothing.

Enough to definitively say what it is like, what it must be like?

This should like to a state of mind that you just experience your being.

Enough then even to say that your experience of a thing is exactly how God must “experience (or not)” said thing?

It can be say that God experiencing things is similar to how we experience things.

 

[Bahman]

(1) Why would God’s knowledge be like ours? No theologian claims that it is.

God impose itself to beings not as it is but as beings could get expose to and comprehend it otherwise we all go to state of madness. It is very crucial for this God to leave some space/time and hints in creation including ourselves to learn what face of God we are exposed to it. This is crucial for a good and evil relation between God and beings. It is good since things can be learn from it (gifts of God) and evil since since gifts are hidden.

(2) You assume that we always “construct” concepts. But these concepts are not, for all your saying, given to us in experience. What experience gives a person the concept of “four”? At the very least, you’re assuming that there is no a priori knowledge, which is quite controversial even among atheists.

We do always construct concepts even when we think we are learning concepts. A concept in principle could not be digested/comprehend with our subconscious mind unless it is not constructed well with our conscious mind.

But these concepts are not, for all your saying, given to us in experience.

A concept cannot be constructed unless it is imposed to conscious mind, it is experienced once is there. The experience is already defined in #25

What experience gives a person the concept of “four”?

Each well defined concept has a definition in subconscious mind. All concepts are brought to consciousness to be experienced, a part are known so could be comprehended with subconsciousness and a part are unknown. That is when we say I comprehend it or didn’t comprehend it.

At the very least, you’re assuming that there is no a priori knowledge, which is quite controversial even among atheists.

Can you please elaborate on this.

 

[Bahman]

So are you saying that once God created time, he was not aware of time after that, so therefore, it seems according to you that if he is not aware of time, then he is not aware of his creation, man, animals, plants either? So you are saying that God does not have the power or ability to come into our time and space. If that were so, then you would have to say that Jesus was not divine because He came into our time and space for 33 years. God chose the moment of time in which Jesus was to enter our time; he had to have an awareness of time in order to know the moment in which this was to occur.

All I am saying is that God has to be in state time in order to interact with creation. To my understanding God impose itself to creation as creation can exposed to in all posiible forms, so it is crucial for God to be in state of time, so it could interact with creation in proper manner.

What you are essentially saying is that God does not have the power to enter the time and space he created, thus he is not all powerful.

All I am saying is that it is logically impossible for a God in state of timeless to interact with creation since God and creation are causally separated from each other since God is state of timeless and creation in state of time so God could not experience the state of creation and as a result cannot interact with the creation. Please read previous posts as I explained other concepts there too.

 

[Bahman]

Seriously though, God experienced time through the Incarnation.

As it is explained in previous posts this is logically impossible to be done for a God who is in state of timeless since there is no before and after for a being in state of timeless and as such God in state of timeless cannot possibly create universe and then incarnate in this universe since one action, creation, follow by next action, incarnation.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Here is the argument which prove God in timeless state cannot distinguish what is the current time:

1. Time is a concept related to occurrence of events with specific rate
2. There is time attached to series of events and now by definition is the time at which we experience events
3. There are a before and after for the events which means that time has a direction
4. Timeless mind state means, no events, there is no before and after so there is no sense of direction for time, there is no experience when there is no events so there no concept of now
5. God is in state of timeless means, he could not experience creation, he could not distinguish the direction of time, and he could not distinguish now

1. So you finished your experiment. You’ve written it up and sent it off to Newish Scientist Magazine for publishing. Sitting back on your veranda sipping a tequila and listening dreamily to the evening frogs you enter a sort of timeless waking dream-like mind state. Your entire experiment is there before your minds eye, beginning, end and all inbetween. You see it all at once as one homogenous glob of effort, now you focus on this and that part of your experiment reliving it again, recalling the time and effort it had taken… etc.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Can you please elaborate on this.

Empiricists say that all knowledge comes from experience, but it is unclear how experience could possibly determine the types of things that we take out of experience. This is why most secular philosophers are at the very least agnostic about empiricism. In other words, they think that it is possible that our concepts are not fully shaped by experience, but rather that they have some a priori content. (A priori = before/without experience).

 

[seagal]

A God in state of timeless only is aware of initial state of creation and it is causally separated from the creation, so he neither know the current state of creation nor can interact with it.

What do you mean causally separated from creation? God is the cause of creation.

This is logically impossible for a God who is in state of timeless since there is no before and after for God in state of timeless whereas as you suggest God first create universe then send his son for salvation which means one event came after another which falsify the idea of timeless God.

You misunderstand what is meant by a state of timelessness. It means to God there is no before or after, there is only an eternal now. All times, past present and future, are now to God. That’s how he is aware of what’s going on here.

 

[seagal]

God in state of timeless is cut off from creation for a simple reason as following, if it not cut off then he could experience two consecutive events which means that God mind is state of time, since order of events define a direction which implies time.

I have no problem with God interaction with creation, all I am saying is that God has to be in state of time in order to know the state of creation and can interact with it.

Your whole idea of God, which you’ve tried to verbalize in all your threads, is extremely restrictive and limited to your human understanding and experience. You’re trying to squash God down into a tiny box when he is so far beyond anything you can put your mind around. You need to switch your thinking around. First know and accept that God is God and is capable of everything and anything. Then realize that if you conceptualize anything that you doubt God can do, accept that it’s not God’s deficiency in power but your deficiency in understanding.

 

[JerryZ]

God in state of timeless is cut off from creation for a simple reason as following, if it not cut off then he could experience two consecutive events which means that God mind is state of time, since order of events define a direction which implies time.

I have no problem with God interaction with creation, all I am saying is that God has to be in state of time in order to know the state of creation and can interact with it.

That is a non sequitur, the creator of something does not need to be IN-IT in order to fully comprehend what is ocurring INSIDE His creation.
It is called OMNISCIENCY.

The Creator of the Universe of which time is a component, knows the exact position at any given moment the position of the electron orbiting the proton of any Hidrogen atom anywhere in the Universe since it was created. And He knows the same for all the Atoms of all the matter present in the Universe.
Because He created it.
How do we know that He does? Well He is the one that decides when to make His prescence felt and interact with His creation. Or do you believe that Jesus’s birth date for example was a random act?
Wait! do you believe in Jesus?

–

 

[DanAl]

Here is the argument which prove God in timeless state cannot distinguish what is the current time:

1. Time is a concept related to occurrence of events with specific rate
2. There is time attached to series of events and now by definition is the time at which we experience events
3. There are a before and after for the events which means that time has a direction
4. Timeless mind state means, no events, there is no before and after so there is no sense of direction for time, there is no experience when there is no events so there no concept of now
5. God is in state of timeless means, he could not experience creation, he could not distinguish the direction of time, and he could not distinguish now

This is all good and fine, except, that the present must be willed by God in order to exist. And if something is willed by God it ceases to be a possibility and becomes true for God.

 

[vz71]

I have no problem with God interaction with creation, all I am saying is that God has to be in state of time in order to know the state of creation and can interact with it.

I don’t have to be in a river to interact with it.
Although the fish in the river may think that.

 

[Jimdandy]

As soon as one asks " What time is it?" the time has changed. God does not change and therefore He is outside****** time (-which is a measurement of change-) which He created.

 

[opus101]

But God created time. He knows what it is. Being omniscient is like that.

Also, if He didn’t know what it was, He would not have been able to enter time, nor would He have become incarnate “in the fullness of time”.

But indeed, it’s a great mystery.

 

[Bahman]

I’m afraid it does’t prove anything. It has too many holes.

It does.

Experientally, time is not merely a concept. It is true that we can only distinguish time by change, but “related to” is too vague a term to use to prove anything about time in a logical argument.

There is no experiment that one can experience time. Time can only be measured through changes in things in nature. Simple no thing no time.

logically can only apply to those who are subject to time. The fact that we experience a “now” doesn’t mean that it is the only way to interact with time. If you put your hand in a river, you can put it it any place. You don’t have to be floating in the river in order to experience it. However a fish might not understand any other way of interacting with a river, since most other ways of interacting with it would mean the fish was dead.

I didn’t say that we could interact with time as time is an imaginary concept that we attach it to changes. I only mentioned that the current time or now is when we experience things.

True, but irrelevant.

True and relevant.

God isn’t a being subject to time that merely fails to experience time. God’s existence is outside time–it is not a “mind state.” And it is possible to know of events without experiencing them. It is true that God does not experience a “now” in the same way that we do, but that doesn’t mean He is cut off from time altogether.
This does not follow from your earlier points.

Time cannot be experienced directly, neither with us nor with God if we accept that time is an imaginary concept that we attach it to changes. God existence is outside the time is a false phrase since time does not exist as a real thing so God could stay outside or inside. It is impossible to know events without experiencing them Please read post #25 and #26. God is cut off from creation and changes within.

Basically, you are trying to prove that God can’t experience time at all because He doesn’t experience it the way we do. In order to do that, you would have to prove logically that there is no way to experience time besides the one we’re familiar with. You haven’t done that, and I don’t think it would be possible. First, it’s notoriously difficult to prove a negative, and second, I don’t think it’s true.

There is no other way to experience time, since time is an imaginary concept that we attach it to changes. God cannot experience changes since it is in state of timeless so it could not know time, the current state of creation and as a result God is causally separated from creation.

 

[Bahman]

Perhaps God, existing outside of time, could be spoken of having locally “traveled” to different points of his created, time.

Time is an imaginary concept that we attach it to changes so as a result God cannot live inside or outside time.

We know that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. How God personally arrived at that point in “time” does not really matter. He “travelled” from his place outside of time [ie eternity] to that point in time and intervened.

That is logically impossible because of a simple reason: God create universe (first action), second the action as you mention where one occurs after another. We however know that God is in state of timeless so there no after and before for God meaning that God cannot act anything after creation since it contradict itself. So God cannot come to earth and talk with anybody, neither incarnate as man.

God does not need personal experience to understand anything.

God in state of timeless cannot experience anything so it is causally cut off from creation.

He created all of mankind’s limits and understands them completely.

There is no limit for being limits. God created being with huge potential within.

 

[Bahman]

First, I think the Creator of Time would know well enough about Time, more than you surely.

Time is an imaginary concept that we attach to changes that happen in beings so it cannot be created. Beings can however be created once and only once sine two creations means that one follow by another which contradict the concept of timeless mind whereas there is no after and before for it.

As for the problem concerning Creation, God says, “Surely I, the LORD, do not
change” (Malachi 3:6a), so the Christian realization that God is a Tripartite God
helps make it logical that a timeless unchanging God is able to create.

God can only create creation in state of being in state timeless and it is causally separated from creation since any second action is against being in state timeless.