O
- Status
R
rstrats
Guest
Bookcat,
re: “God is outside of time.”
On what do you base that assertion?
re: “God is outside of time.”
On what do you base that assertion?
B
Bookcat
Guest
The two wings…Faith and Reason
See the Teachings the Catholic Church (ie the Catechism), Catholic Theologians and Philosophers…etc.
C
clem456
Guest
Mysterious does not necessarily mean incomprehensible or imaginary or unknowable. Most everything we can claim to “know” has an element of mystery.
For instance, take any other person than yourself.
Your mother for example. You know your mother, but you do not comprehend her complete being, or her essence. Yet your experience and reason, and her revealing of herself to you, lead you to a reasonable knowledge of her.
Your experience of her is a “sign of” her complete being, but not the thing itself. Your knowledge of her is a sign of the deeper reality which her complete being is. Your knowledge is true, and reasonable, but it is not complete comprehension.
O
onenow1
Guest
:thumbsup:Clem: I think a good example would be: Being married 48yrs. I will never know my wife completely even though we keep nothing from one another.
God Bless
T
TarkanAttila
Guest
Well, it would make no sense if God lay purely within the bonds of time and space, now would it?
Nothing within the natural, temporal, spatial world causes itself. Every physical thing is moved or changed by something outside of itself. Therefore the natural world, the universe of which we are a part, cannot explain itself wholly and entirely within itself.
To explain the existence of the physical world - even given the existence of other non-physical worlds - there must be something that is non-contingent - that is not moved by something outside of itself, but is moved by itself.
This non-contingent, perpetually moving thing must also be non-physical, because the overwhelming evidence is that physical things cannot move themselves.
This non-physical, non-contingent entity is what we call God.
And that’s only the tip of the iceberg. (Or the corner of the treasure trunk.)
P
Partinobodycula
Guest
onenow1, I have read every single post in this thread with great interest, and while it has been explained a great many times as to how God is outside of time, and what this means to His foreknowledge, and our free will, it’s never been adequately explained as to what this means about the nature of God Himself.
Thanks for your response Georgias, and you’re correct, Bahman and I aren’t necessarily in agreement, but I do understand his argument. As to my objections stemming from certain misunderstandings, quite possibly. As to their stemming from anthropomorphisms, not at all. I understand the concept of God as proposed by you, others, and Aquinas. It’s the implications of those concepts that raises my objections.
**God doesn’t ‘think’, either **-- or, at least, He doesn’t ‘ratiocinate’ (that is, He doesn’t have linear chains of thought in the way that humans do). This isn’t a new idea – it’s all there in Aquinas’ writing, if you wish to immerse yourself in his thought. A number of contemporary authors have done a great job of making Aquinas’ arguments more accessible to a modern audience – Feser is one of them.
(And, also, God doesn’t ‘feel’ in the way that humans do, either. Again, your objections stem from a certain anthropomorphism of the notion of ‘being’, and project our experience as humans onto what you expect all beings to experience.)
You’ve neglected one of my objections. I put forward that a timeless God can’t think, feel, or create. You’ve agreed that He can’t do the first two. I submit that He can’t do the third one either. If God is truly timeless then things either are, or they aren’t, they don’t become, that’s a human perspective. So how is it that God can create?
No, it’s precisely because I don’t perceive of God as acting in the same modes as humans do that I raise these objections. At this point I haven’t even begun to raise any serious objections, I’m simply hoping to see if others can recognize what those objections are, without me having to point them out. If people have really thought this through, then they will know what my objections will ultimately be, because they have had to overcome them in the same manner that I’m attempting to do. Either that, or they’ve simply not seen them, or they’ve denied them without really thinking them through at all. Which is what I suspect is the case with most people.
As a rule, I don’t think that people really analyze their beliefs very thoroughly at all, and this is why they end up believing in things that simply aren’t rational. They believe first, and think only as a means to defend those beliefs.
I on the other hand am completely different, I think first, and believe only when it’s rationally sound to do so.
O
onenow1
Guest
I know one thing about the nature of God, He keeps us in existence therefore Love has to be the motivator, as I see it with my small mind, compared to the God that created you and me.
The gospels are filled with this especially in Jesus prayer before His passion. So I must follow the ancient Christian Church. As St.John Paul ll has said the two lungs of the Church, eastern and western. Perhaps, the only way we may know is to set our eyes on the crucifix that both rites keep as central reminder of His Love for us.
God Bless
A
Aloysium
Guest
I am not sure you can know what people are talking about here.
If you truly are interested in dicovering the Truth, you will have to pray.
You cannot know these things outside a relationship with God.
I will say it again:
You cannot know these things outside a relationship with God.
There is no point for anyone to repeat the same old phrases.
If you have not progressed it is because God is not allowing you to do so.
It is not sufficient to know about Him.
You must know Him!
:twocents:
P
Partinobodycula
Guest
I can’t speak to what either of you know. All that I can do, is be honest. If you find this lacking, then I’m sorry. If you find my objections unenlightened, then again I’m sorry. But I must raise them. Somebody has to raise them. If only to make you think. If only to keep you from unwarranted complacency. Having faith in God doesn’t mean that you can stop asking why, and it doesn’t matter if a thousand wise men before you have all proclaimed the same truth, you must still ask why. Because God expects you to ask why. And He expects Muslims to ask why. And He expects Jews to ask why. And He expects you to say I don’t know, when you don’t know. He expects you to be honest. Because if you can’t do that, then what good are you? What good is your faith if it’s built on things that you’ve never questioned?
I can’t make you see what I see. I can’t make you ask why. But I can try.
O
onenow1
Guest
Indeed! we all must question as far as our reason lets us do so, some questions just cannot be answered. I understand,what you are getting at but faith has to take the drivers seat,so I refer to our Maker.
Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind:
2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz3StvWSEwx
Remember man you are dust and to dust you shall return.
B
Bahman
Guest
What this supposed to mean?
O
opusAquinas
Guest
Yes the future is fixed and cannot change.
There will be a Second Coming.
Everything is set.
But we willed to do all these things.
Do you understand now?
Ok, how about this-
You have a DVD of a movie right?
Imagine all the actors/characters in the film are acting from their free will. OK?
But their future is all fixed. We, outside of the universe of that film - in eternity so to speak know everything that will happen.
But the people all did it by their free will.
B
Bahman
Guest
Simple, God knows everything at once, his eternal now. The hard part is to define the act of creation in timeless state since act by definition deals with changes. Your God however sustains creation which means that he should know the current now which is subject to change in his eternal now. So we have two problems in our hand to resolve.Can you enlighten us on that which you imagine ?
God Bless
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is an analogy to try and help you see that your asking questions about God and thinking about God – as if God were a creature in time.
You keep coming back to the same kinds of questions - and we then tell you that your thinking of God not as God but as some creature in time.
This can happen in any subject - one keeps going in circles for one may not see that one is asking questions about subject X as if it was subject Y.
Read it again and think about it.
If someone wishes to learn to drive a car one has to accept that his bicycle is not a car and start looking into cars. If he keeps trying to think of his car as if it was a bicycle he is going to drive himself crazy trying to find the peddles.
If that person comes to one and insists - “but show me how I make the peddles go round and round…”
One has to get them to see that it is not like a bicycle.
If they keep coming back to “but the peddles do not go round and round” …
One has to tell them - no it is not a bicycle it is a car. You are thinking as if it were a bicycle.
If they then keep saying:
“how do I make the peddles go round and round?”
One cannot show them that how they go round and round - for they do not.
One has to repeat - “your thinking as if it is a bicycle -you need to cease that line of thinking”…“the peddles do not go round and round”…
O
onenow1
Guest
"I see’! you in your imagination have a different god ? God is all knowing if this is true and it must be because He is God.
Some of the perfections of God are: God is eternal, all-good, all-knowing, all-present, and almighty.
Eternal= Alpha and the Omega = all-knowing = all-present = Almighty=Love for us because we do not keep ourselves or anything in existence. This goes double for man, He said it was very good.
God could change things through intervention, that does not mean that there is any change within the nature of God, because he knew from all eternity that he would create the world and save it from its sins. In one sense everything is seen and done by God from all eternity. There is no change here. But from the viewpoint of creatures in the world there is change and improvement. Now if God were finite, there would have to be a change in him when he worked changes in the world. In that case God could not be perfect, changeless, immutable. But God is infinite, a nature that we cannot comprehend. Perhaps another way to look at it is this. God is Being or Existence Itself and therefore absolutely complete.
God Bless
A
Aloysium
Guest
At the basis of Christianity is Love.
In giving we receive, in keeping for ourselves, we lose.
This is true for everything in life.
Jesus died on the cross; in giving His life, He gave us all eternal life.
How do we know anything?
Because we give our minds to what we believe to be true.
That is what schools are for, to inculcate the teachings of society into its members
that we may communicate and work together.
There are many “truths”.
The Truth, comes from surrendering one’s mind to God.
It may take and instant and a life-time,
but the Holy Spirit will bless us with
knowledge, wisdom, understanding and counsel among its other graces.
Seek and you will find Him who is Truth.
In giving we receive, in keeping for ourselves, we lose.
This is true for everything in life.
Jesus died on the cross; in giving His life, He gave us all eternal life.
How do we know anything?
Because we give our minds to what we believe to be true.
That is what schools are for, to inculcate the teachings of society into its members
that we may communicate and work together.
There are many “truths”.
The Truth, comes from surrendering one’s mind to God.
It may take and instant and a life-time,
but the Holy Spirit will bless us with
knowledge, wisdom, understanding and counsel among its other graces.
Seek and you will find Him who is Truth.
O
onenow1
Guest
AL.John 17
17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me
God Bless
B
Bahman
Guest
I would be happier that you would give me a definition of your God instead an example so we could have something to work around. Can we define a timeless God that sees everything in his eternal now?
B
Bahman
Guest
No. I was referring to your God that he could not experience anything temporal hence he could not know the current time hence he could not sustain creation. The same apply to very act creation. You God cannot have both candies at the same time, meaning to be timeless and temporal the former is needed to know everything and the latter is needed to carry different actions.
Cool.
Can you imagine a simple act in timeless state?God could change things through intervention, that does not mean that there is any change within the nature of God, because he knew from all eternity that he would create the world and save it from its sins. In one sense everything is seen and done by God from all eternity. There is no change here. But from the viewpoint of creatures in the world there is change and improvement. Now if God were finite, there would have to be a change in him when he worked changes in the world. In that case God could not be perfect, changeless, immutable. But God is infinite, a nature that we cannot comprehend. Perhaps another way to look at it is this. God is Being or Existence Itself and therefore absolutely complete.
God Bless
- Status