God loves the sinner...

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Faith101,

It’s funny you should bring this up. Similar verses used to confuse me when I saw them, like this one (I think it was in Deuteronomy) that said “the Lord ‘hates’ cheaters”. At the time, I couldn’t understand why it would speak of God “hating” someone (since he apparently loves everyone) but I didn’t think it anything more than a minor detail at the time. Then just recently I saw a footnote in a completely different verse that explained how the word “hate” in Semitic usage means “to love to a lesser degree”.

I hope others can expound that more, because I’m just learning as far as this topic is concerned. However, translation issues like this are a good example of why a dynamic church authority was made to guard doctrinal truth rather than a single static text being expected to do the job for all ages.
 
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Faith101:
First, thank you for your well thought out explanation 🙂

I understand what you are saying, but the Bible clearly states “He will abhor YOU” not just the sin,but the sinner themselves. Therefore, the anology of the baby in diapers doesnt fit…because you would say to the baby “i hate the smell of your diapers” and not “I hate YOU.”

Similiarly, the Bible states

Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Psalms: “The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates”

Is it an unconditional love, or is it based on God’s terms?
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Okay, after my last post here I started looking through my notes and found out that the footnote I was just talking about was listed in the very Romans 9:13 you just mentioned above! More specifically:

9:13: The literal rendering, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul’s statement. In Semitic usage “hate” means to love less; cf Lk 14, 26 with Mt 10, 37. Israel’s unbelief reflects the mystery of the divine election that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Mt 3, 9; Jn 8, 39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point.

Another important thing is that the above verse is alluding to Malachi 1:3.
 
MonicaC said:
’’

As I stated before God cannot hate like we hate he is all loving. He can though hate a persons acts.

Let me try again to explain my thoughts through another means. As I stated above I have three children, but only two children here on earth. I don’t hate my lost child by any means but I do hate the fact that he is gone. Now this hard to explain because it was no fault of his that he is gone. But I do know some who have lost children who are gone due to their own faults, ie; not obeying rules. Now if you were to ask that parent if they hate their child for not obeying them what do you think they would say? No they would most likely say that they hate the idea that the child did not obey but they still love the child.

I hope this explains my postion a little better. 🙂
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Monica…the anaology that you give is based on your perception of what a human beings relationship to God is. God as a father, and mankind as His children. And I understand what you are saying, but what does that have to do with the verses at hand. God says, i love this peson and hate this person…not I love this persons acts and hate this persons acts.

Also, would it be fair for God to tell us that He loves us all of the time…and at death we are shocked that we are thrown into hell forever.
 
The Old Testament was written primarily for the People of God whom he had chosen to ultimately bring the Messiah into the world. God expected a higher standard from his own people, but those who opposed his will were, while on this earth, to be avoided and in some cases abhorred because they led God’s people away from true worship of him for the idols of the pagans
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So “God loves the sinner” did not apply to God’s “choosen” people because they are at a higher standard than the rest of mankind?
 
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Orionthehunter:
God is perfect. He was perfect before He made us and is perfect after He made us. He didn’t make us because He was lonely or otherwise incomplete because then He would have been imperfect before us. He made us out of love. Since God is perfect, it is imperfect for His love to be imperfect. If His love is perfect, His love for us doesn’t change because we are sinners or don’t repent. His love for us is eternal, perfect, and unconditional.
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Now i’m confused 🙂

You said His love does not change, and it is unconditional. How do you understand those verses then?
 
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Faith101:
Monica…the anaology that you give is based on your perception of what a human beings relationship to God is. God as a father, and mankind as His children. And I understand what you are saying, but what does that have to do with the verses at hand. God says, i love this peson and hate this person…not I love this persons acts and hate this persons acts.

Also, would it be fair for God to tell us that He loves us all of the time…and at death we are shocked that we are thrown into hell forever.
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Hello Faith

I really don’t know how else to explain it but i did like the way exoflare explained the word hate so I will repost his reply here
9:13: The literal rendering, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul’s statement. In Semitic usage “hate” means to love less
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; cf Lk 14, 26 with Mt 10, 37. Israel’s unbelief reflects the mystery of the divine election that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Mt 3, 9; Jn 8, 39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point. *

This is the understanding I was talking about. To love less a parent tends to be sadden by their childs action but knowing that the child has made his choices. A parent cannot force a child to love him, so that parent may now focus more of his love on those children who do chose to love him. BUt all the while still loving the one lost child.
 
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exoflare:
Okay, after my last post here I started looking through my notes and found out that the footnote I was just talking about was listed in the very Romans 9:13 you just mentioned above! More specifically:

9:13: The literal rendering, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” suggests an attitude of divine hostility that is not implied in Paul’s statement. In Semitic usage “hate” means to love less; cf Lk 14, 26 with Mt 10, 37. Israel’s unbelief reflects the mystery of the divine election that is always operative within it. Mere natural descent from Abraham does not ensure the full possession of the divine gifts; it is God’s sovereign prerogative to bestow this fullness upon, or to withhold it from, whomsoever he wishes; cf Mt 3, 9; Jn 8, 39. The choice of Jacob over Esau is a case in point.

Another important thing is that the above verse is alluding to Malachi 1:3.
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So the correct translation of the verse should say instead “love less” instead of hate?
 
John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ro&chapter=9&verse=13 states
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
These words are explanative of the former; they are of like import, and the one interpret the other; and show, that the former are to be understood in a spiritual, and not in a temporal sense, and of the persons, and not the posterity of Jacob and Esau; for though Malachi prophesied long after Jacob and Esau were personally dead, yet the Lord in that prophecy manifestly directs the murmuring Jews to the personal regard he had had to Jacob and Esau, and which had continued in numberless instances to their respective posterities, in order to stop their mouths, and reprove their ingratitude; and though he speaks of the nation of the Edomites, and to the posterity of Israel, yet it is evident, that he has a respect to the persons of Jacob and Esau, from whence they sprung, when he says, “was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” (Malachi 1:2) , now though an Edomite may be said to be brother to an Israelite, yet Esau is never said, nor can he with any propriety be said to be the brother of Jacob’s posterity: it remains, that these words regard their persons, and express the true spring and source of the choice of the one, and the rejection of the other; and which holds true of all the instances of either kind: everlasting and unchangeable love is the true cause and spring of the choice of particular persons to eternal salvation; and hatred is the cause of rejection, by which is meant not positive hatred, which can only have for its object sin and sinners, or persons so considered; but negative hatred, which is God’s will, not to give eternal life to some persons; and shows itself by a neglect of them, taking no notice of them, passing them by, when he chose others; so the word “hate” is used for neglect, taking no notice, where positive hatred cannot be thought to take place, in (Luke 14:26) ."
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In terms of “God loves the sinner…” and

“hate the sin, love the sinner”:

God is Love, Wisdom, Mercy, Goodness.
He wants us to be with Him [that is, He loves us].

When a person sins, he/she chooses his/her will
over God’s will [as expressed in His commands].

God still loves this person…i.e. He wills their good.

A very weak analogy would be: a mother and father
love their child…and are saddened when the child
chooses to act in such a way that brings hurt to
others and to his/herself.]

If the person spends a lifetime, choosing their will
over God’s will…

quote: reen12 [from another thread]
At that last fleeting nano-second of life, does God
reach out to the soul and say:
“Will you accept My will?”
And will that soul have one last chance to say:
“My will be done” and thus choose hell?
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How is this not loving, on God’s part?
He says, in scripture:
“I would that not one of these be lost” [paraphrase]
“would” in this sense means:
I will their good. Yet their good is in My will.

He even sent His Son, to call out to human beings:
“I have not come for the healthy, but for the sick.”
“Repent, and sin [choose your will over Mine] no more.”

I also think that this is the meaning of: “love your enemies.”
This does not mean: “Have warm, fuzzy feelings toward
those who have done you or other people harm.”

I think it means:
Continue to will the good for that person.
[which would mean: that that person would repent, seek
God’s forgiveness, and not continue to do harm to others.]
[it’s taken me near 6 decades, to understand this.]

Just a thought,

reen12
 
“16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
(1 John 7-11)

“16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.”
(1 John 4:16)

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us."
(1 John 4:17-19)

“Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?”
(Ezekiel 18:23)

**‘For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” ** says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”’
(Ezekiel 18:32)

“Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’”
(Ezekiel 33:11)
 
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Faith101:
So the correct translation of the verse should say instead “love less” instead of hate?
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As it is with most cases when translating between two languages, there cannot be said to be a single “correct” translation here. There was never any guarantee that every word in every language ever created (much less every idiomatic phrase and such) would have an equal and exact counterpart in every other language in the world. Again, this is the perfect illustration of why a single static text cannot be expected to serve as a complete and whole revelation for every nation in every age, but that’s another topic. The point is that the Hebrew word that was first used in this instance carries a very similar (but NOT perfectly identical!) meaning in modern English (or probably any other language out there), so reading the literal translation of a sentence cannot always be expected to suffice for understanding it. All we can do is communicate the intended meaning as best we can. For this, we’ve been given the Church to preserve the essential beliefs regardless of what language patterns emerge throughout the ages.
 
discipleofJesus said:
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
(1 John 7-11)
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(1 John 7-11) is meant to be (1 John 4:7-11)
 
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Faith101:
Peace

I hear Christian saying this often, and its difficult for me to grasp.

God loves the sinner, hates the sin.

Does this mean He loves all sinners, or just ones who repent? And where does this idea originate from (verses from Bible would help 🙂 )
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The Love of God is unconditional.​

As for repentance - who could repent, if he were not moved to do so by the mercy and kindness of God ? None of us. Repentance is wholly the work of God in us, with a bit of responsive activity from us as well: which is possible only because God moves us to act in that way. So repentance is never somethng we can take any credit for. ##
 
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Faith101:
First, thank you for your well thought out explanation 🙂

Similiarly, the Bible states

Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Is it an unconditional love, or is it based on God’s terms?
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I have to ask you why you are reading the Gospels of Jesus when this is clearly forbidden by Islamic law? Are you here because you want to convert or are you here using the socratic method to try and sew doubt in the minds of the Catholics on the site? I ask because in Reliance of the Traveler, the classic book on Islamic Sacred Law, we find this directive which clearly stipulates it is unlawful to gain unlawful knowlege such as the Gospels which would clearly be a means to create doubt:
a7.0 SUBJECTS THAT ARE NOT SACRED KNOWLEDGEa7.2 Unlawful knowledge includes:(6) and anything that is a means to create doubts "
 
Cf. the earlier thread: “**Biblical Dyslexia - Does God Hate?” ** in the “Sacred Scripture” Sub-Forum of “Apologetics”…
 
QUOTE=eleusis]I have to ask you why you are reading the Gospels of Jesus when this is clearly forbidden by Islamic law?
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First time i hear this…please point out where it is *clearly * forbidden. In terms of creating doubt about my own faith, reading the Bible has done just the opposite.
Secondly you here because you want to convert or are you here using the socratic method to try and sew doubt in the minds of the Catholics on the site?
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I initially came here to defend my faith against the ignorance of some people on this site. I can not guide anyone, as that power lies only with Allah.
 
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Faith101:
First time i hear this…please point out where it is *clearly *forbidden. In terms of creating doubt about my own faith, reading the Bible has done just the opposite.

I initially came here to defend my faith against the ignorance of some people on this site. I can not guide anyone, as that power lies only with Allah.
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Like I said, in the book Reliance of the Traveler re-read my post. If you initially came here to “defend your faith” as you say then the choice of that word means you remain here for other reasons. What are those reasons considering you are breaking your own traditional laws in doing so?
 
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eleusis:
Like I said, in the book Reliance of the Traveler re-read my post. If you initially came here to “defend your faith” as you say then the choice of that word means you remain here for other reasons. What are those reasons considering you are breaking your own traditional laws in doing so?
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Initially to defend my faith, then it was to learn more about Catholics and also teach ppl about Islam…now its back to defending my faith.

reading the Bible does not make me doubt my faith, i already said that. I think when ppl overanalyze things and want to know every little bit of detail about God is where doubt arises, and that stuff i stay clear away from (and have done so on this forum many times when some ppl wanted to dwell on it).
 
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Faith101:
Initially to defend my faith, then it was to learn more about Catholics and also teach ppl about Islam…now its back to defending my faith.

reading the Bible does not make me doubt my faith, i already said that. I think when ppl overanalyze things and want to know every little bit of detail about God is where doubt arises, and that stuff i stay clear away from (and have done so on this forum many times when some ppl wanted to dwell on it).
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Reading the bible doesn’t cause doubt certainly if by the bible you mean what we Christians call the old Testament. If you include the Gospels in your definition of the bible then you are clearly forging your own particular brand of Islam. But that’s fine too since the religion plays loose and free with interpretation of what is right and wrong anyway, no absolutes in Islam and I see by your example that holds true with you as well.
Cheers,
 
PS 5:5
Proverbs 8:17
John 14:15
Nahum 1:2
Sir 12:6
Sir 15:13
Lk 19:27
John 3:36
Rev 2:6-7
2 Peter 2:4,6,10,12,17,
John 10:12
 
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