God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[sseason]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

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Think about this…could God, our King, our Savior, the Word made Flesh actually LIVE in a woumb stained with sin?

Read the Old Testament and how articulate God was in having the Arc made. He was very specific and wanted the finest of jewels and linens for the Arc and the Holy of Holies. (very sorry I don’t have Bible quotes right now! I’m running out the door in a minute.) If God was that specific and the Arc of the Covenant was treated with such reverence…how much more would He want the Arc of the New Covenant i.e. Mary, holding the Word made Flesh- Jesus Christ?
I don’t believe Christ (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) could physically live in a sinful body.

p.s. I know I don’t know how to spell and spell check doesn’t work on this site with my pc. Sorry.

 

[RobbyS]

“But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…” ~ Martin Luther, who started the whole Sola Scriptura confusion that Protestants are now in.

Many evangelicals seems to have a tendency to avoid the full meaning of the Incarnation, to think of Jesus as divine but not fully human, or as a man who becomes divine at the time of his Resurrection. Mary thus is reduced to an insignificant figure. To be sure, some Catholics tend to think of her as divine, but even they place her lower in the divine economy than jesus, as divine in the sense that all the saints shall be divine at the time of the resurrection. In other words, many “protestants” are unconscious Arians and some Catholics elevate Mary to the high place where the Arians placed Jesus.

 

[VociMike]

God is His perfect wisdom knew that when He told us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful that some people would try to use this to argue that Jesus was sinful. So He clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

Now some people are trying to suggest that Mary was sinless, even though God tells us in His written word that all of humanity accept Jesus is sinful. So God didn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless because she wasn’t but He does tell us that Jesus was sinless because He was.

Then God in his perfect wisdom knew that we would all ask you what sins a newborn baby has committed. And God in his perfect wisdom would have equipped you to answer us. So please answer us. What sins has a newborn baby committed? Does Rom 5:12 apply to each and every human being who ever existed (Jesus Christ being a Divine Being, not a human being)?

 

[quami]

emeraldisle

Who gave Mary her life?

Who gave Mary her womb?

Who gave Mary the ability to think?

Who gave Mary the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus?

Who forgave Mary her sins?

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My answer to the first 4 questions you asked me is that God gave her all these things. If you are trying to make this point then you are right.

In terms of your fifth question no one forgave her sins because she is SINLESS.

Again this forum is full of scripture passages pointing and defending this fact.

I’ll add this though.

Read the Early Church Farthers teachings on Mary.

You may argue that these are sinful men and you would be correct. But these sinful men sat at the feet of the apostles and were taught by them (St Polycarp of Smyrna to name one) or were taught by men who directly knew the apostles. The same apostles that Christ taught for forty days about issues that they needed to know in order to lead the Church.

Also these sinful men did great things for the collective church - some died for their beliefs.

When you read their teachings you will find that they teach about the immaculate conception.

staycatholic.com/ecf_immaculate_conception.htm
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9110frs.asp

If you still think that she is sinful then no amount of apologetics will change your mind.

I will say this though that i admire your zeal for your position.

GB

Quami

 

[ConallCernach]

God is His perfect wisdom knew that when He told us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful that some people would try to use this to argue that Jesus was sinful. So He clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

Now some people are trying to suggest that Mary was sinless, even though God tells us in His written word that all of humanity accept Jesus is sinful. So God didn’t tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless because she wasn’t but He does tell us that Jesus was sinless because He was.

.

But in the Church Fathers they teach the sinlessness of Mary. These are people who PREDATE the INVENTION of sola scriptura.

also, yay 100th post

 

[ConallCernach]

I will say this though that i admire your zeal for your position.

GB

Quami

Perhaps not his unchanging in the face of insurmountable truth.

 

[Gamera]

Now you can try and argue against God and the fact that He has revealed to us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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This is just a play on words. Jesus is part of sinful humanity. That doesn’t mean Jesus personally sinned.

And I don’t appreciate your use of the phrase “argue against God.” I am not arguing against God. I am arguing against you. You are not God. Just because I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible doesn’t mean I am any less devoted to God than you are.

 

[quami]

I JUST WANTED TO EXTEND MY WARM THANKS TO THE BRO AND SIS RESPONDING TO THIS FORUM

YOU GUYS ROCK

ALSO YOU GUYS INSPIRE ME TO LEARN AND DEFEND THIS FAITH THE WE CATHOLIC LOVE

EMERALDISE

AFTER READING THIS POST FROM THE BEGINNING IT SEEMS THAT YOU KEEP ON MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENTS OR DON’T ANSWER QUESTIONS POSTED TO YOU.

MAYBE:-

1. MAKE NEW ARGUMENTS FOR YOUR POSITION USING OTHER BIBLICAL PASSAGES THAT YOU PURPORT TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT AND NOT THE SAME PASSAGES
2. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT ARE POSTED TO YOU SO THAT WE CAN HAVE ROUNDED ANSWERS TO YOUR ARGUMENT

AGAIN I POSE THE QUESTION I ASKED YOU IN MY FIRST POST. PLEASE ANSWER IT.

JESUS LOVED/LOVES HIS MOTHER SO SHOULD WE SLANDERING HER IS NOT LOVING HER

TRYING TO ARGUE AGAINST THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH - THE CHURCH THAT CHRIST INSTITUTED AND THE SAME CHURCH THE PROMULGATED THE BIBLE - IS INSULTING CHRIST.

THIS MAY NOT BE A BIBLICAL ANSWER BUT IT IS THE TRUTH

AGAIN KUDOS TO THE CATHOLIC POSTERS

GB&TC

QUAMI

PS MARY IS SINLESS IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT TOUGH

 

[sseason]

Perhaps not his unchanging in the face of insurmountable truth.

All in Gods timing. Remember Scott Haun and his conversion. It didn’t happen in one single online thread.

 

[TylerM]

This is a long thread, so forgive me if this has been said re: “all have sinned.”

Genesis 6:9
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

2 Chronicles 15:17
But the high places were not removed from Israel; nevertheless Asa’s heart was blameless all his days.

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Luke 1:5-6
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

 

[mullenpm]

Emeraldisle, you are not shown to be a Catholic so why are you pontificating on what are the beliefs of the Catholic Church?

The Angel Gabriel said: Hail, Full of Grace -

If Mary had been a sinner she would not have been full of Grace.

 

[Zooey]

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

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Ummm…No, He is not the ark.
Jesus is the Word Incarnate.
The ark of the old covenant contained the “10 Words”–God’s law as written by the hand of Moses.
The ark of the new covenant contained the Word Himself.
That makes Mary, who alone contained the Divine Word, the ark.
Any attempt to make Jesus the ark, flies in the face of elementary biology, and it flies in the face of Biblical revelation.
Not to mention–flying in the face of simple logic.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

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try again em.

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

 

[fellowChristian]

May I jump in?

We all believe that Jesus is God ----Correct? **John 8:58 **

And that Jesus being God was here from the begining----- John 1:1-2

Isn’t it possible that a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, preserved her from the stain of original sin and its consequences? Therefore redeeming her by the grace of Christ,
but in a special way—by anticipation?

Because if you think about it, this was His plan from the very begining…

Genesis 3:15
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Here is our promise of our Savior and His mother. So God had already decided that through a woman He would be born. Way back in Gensis. God is our Creator who created Man,the Sun and the earth out of nothing and He was born of a virgin, why is it so hard to believe that He could do this? He created Adam and Eve without sin,why not Mary?

Catholic Answers gives us this…

Consider an analogy:

Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit.

Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place.

This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (in the year of our Lord 388).

 

[fellowChristian]

THE VIRGIN MARY AS THE ARK OF THE NEW COVENANT

God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then** indwelled the Ark**. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God
** [Exodus 40:34-35] **

God the Holy Spirit** overshadowed **and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God
**[Luke 1:35]. **

The Ark contained the **10 Commandments **[the words of God in stone], a pot of manna, and **Aaron’s rod **that came back to life (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood)
Deuteronomy 10:3-5; Hebrews 9:4].

The womb of the Virgin contained Jesus: the **living Word of God **enfleshed, the living bread from heaven, “the Branch” (high priest of the New Covenant) who would die but come back to life
Luke 1:35].

The Ark traveled to the hill country of Judah to rest in the house of Obed-edom
2 Samuel 6:1-11]

Mary traveled to the hill country of Judah (Judea) to the home of Elizabeth
Luke 1:39]

Dressed in a priestly ephod, King David approached the Ark and danced and leapt for joy
2 Samuel 6:14]

John the Baptist, son of a priest who would himself a priest, leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the approach of Mary
Luke 1:43]

David shouted for joy in the presence of God and the holy Ark
[2 Samuel 6:15]

Elizabeth exclaimed with a loud cry of joy in the presence God within Mary
Luke 1:42**]

David asked, “How is it that the Ark of the Lord comes to me?”
2 Samuel 6:9]

Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted unto me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1:43]

The Ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for 3 months
2 Samuel 6:11]

Mary remained in the house of her cousin Elizabeth for 3 months
[Luke 1:56]. **

The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the Ark
[2 Samuel 6:11]

The word “blessed” is used 3 times in** Luke 1:39-45 ****concerning Mary at Elizabeth’s house.

The Ark returned to its sanctuary and eventually ends up in Jerusalem where the presence and glory of God is revealed in the newly built Temple
2 Samuel 6:12; 1 Kings 8:9-11]

Mary returned home from visiting Elizabeth and eventually comes to Jerusalem, where she presents God the Son in the Temple
Luke 1:56; 2:21-22]

God made Aaron’s rod (which would be kept in the Ark) return to life and budded to prove he was the legitimate High Priest
Numbers 17:8].

God would resurrect His Son, who had become enfleshed in Mary’s womb and born to bring salvation to all mankind, to prove He is the eternal High Priest
Hebrews 4:14].

When the Ark was outside the Holy of Holies [when it was being transported] it was to be covered with a blue veil
Numbers 4:4-6]

In Mary’s appearances outside of heaven visionaries testify that she wears a blue veil.

In** Revelation 11:19** John sees the Ark of the Covenant in heaven [this is the last verse of chapter 11] In Revelation 12:1 John sees Mary in heaven.

Read it all together

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the **ark of His covenant **appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
A great sign appeared in heaven: **a woman **clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
And **she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. **Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

and the very last verse 17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with **the rest of her **children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[VociMike]

Who gave Mary her life?

Who gave Mary her womb?

Who gave Mary the ability to think?

Who gave Mary the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus?

Is anybody arguing that Mary is Creator rather than creature? Of course not. So in that sense your questions are not useful.

Who forgave Mary her sins?

Nobody, for she had no sins to forgive. But God certainly granted her substantial graces from the moment of her conception which enabled her to do his will perfectly. Again, nobody is arguing otherwise (except you, perhaps).

 

[VociMike]

Many evangelicals seems to have a tendency to avoid the full meaning of the Incarnation, to think of Jesus as divine but not fully human, or as a man who becomes divine at the time of his Resurrection. Mary thus is reduced to an insignificant figure. To be sure, some Catholics tend to think of her as divine, but even they place her lower in the divine economy than jesus, as divine in the sense that all the saints shall be divine at the time of the resurrection. In other words, many “protestants” are unconscious Arians and some Catholics elevate Mary to the high place where the Arians placed Jesus.

 

[VociMike]

Many evangelicals seems to have a tendency to avoid the full meaning of the Incarnation, to think of Jesus as divine but not fully human, or as a man who becomes divine at the time of his Resurrection. Mary thus is reduced to an insignificant figure.

Quite right. They don’t seem to grasp the parallels (anti-parallels, you could say) between one man, Adam, uncorrupted and perfect as God intended for the human race, acting for the entire human race in separating us from God, and one woman, Mary, uncorrupted and perfect as God intended for the human race, acting for the entire human race in reuniting us with God in that perfect unification of humanity and divinity, Jesus Christ.

Nor do they grasp the parallel between Jesus Christ, the perfect unification of humanity and divinity, receiving his perfect divinity from his perfect Father, and receiving his perfect humanity from his perfect Mother. Even a child understands the concept that you don’t bake a perfect cake without perfect ingredients.

To recognize and understand these parallels is to have the foundation to make sense of the Incarnation. To ignore or reject these parallels is to forever be without the foundation to understand the Incarnation.

 

[RNRobert]

Quite right. They don’t seem to grasp the parallels (anti-parallels, you could say) between one man, Adam, uncorrupted and perfect as God intended for the human race, acting for the entire human race in separating us from God, and one woman, Mary, uncorrupted and perfect as God intended for the human race, acting for the entire human race in reuniting us with God in that perfect unification of humanity and divinity, Jesus Christ.

Nor do they grasp the parallel between Jesus Christ, the perfect unification of humanity and divinity, receiving his perfect divinity from his perfect Father, and receiving his perfect humanity from his perfect Mother. Even a child understands the concept that you don’t bake a perfect cake without perfect ingredients.

To recognize and understand these parallels is to have the foundation to make sense of the Incarnation. To ignore or reject these parallels is to forever be without the foundation to understand the Incarnation.

I like what Catholic writer frank Duff says about Mary:

God modeled Redemption on the lines of the Fall. As the Fathers of the Church, and every teacher in the Church, have put it, He made Redemption exactly reverse the Fall. Everything that was in the fall He took and turned it backwards. Though Eve sinned first, still it was not in Eve that mankind fell but in Adam. Adam was the single source and the head of the human race. Eve herself was taken physically out of him (Genesis 2:23). It was his behavior that was going to ruin mankind. If Eve alone had fallen, and Adam had not, mankind would not have been involved in the Fall. Yet it was because Eve enticed Adam into sin that Adam sinned and mankind fell. The part of Eve was crucial. The serpent approached her and won her over. Eve then caused Adam to fall. It was in Adam that men fell. But the Scriptural insistence on the agency of Eve in the transaction can convey no other meaning than that Adam would not have fallen but for her. Eve is exhibited as the mediatrix of the fall and of the fatal consequences that followed it. The parallel between those circumstances and the Redemption is so complete that it is evident that the one was patterned on the other; that God intended Redemption to be a detailed reversal of the Fall; that the Redemption was to be what it has been styled: The Divine Revenge.

In the restoration the New Adam and the New Eve reverse the part that Adam and Eve played in the original tragedy. Mary was drawn spiritually out of Jesus through the Immaculate Conception, that is by the application of her future merits. The Angel comes to her as the serpent came to Eve- on the same day of the week, it is said- and he proposes the remedial plan. She believes the good message as Eve believed the evil one. She accepts what is proposed to her. She draws Christ down upon the earth and commits Him to His mission which is terribly consummated on Calvary. And there she stands, herself almost dead, but unfainting, unfaltering, offering her Seed in the sacrifice which crushed the head of the serpent, as was promised ages before in the Garden of Even.

Mankind arose in Christ and not in Mary. It was Our Lord who redeemed us by His life and death. But it would not have happened except for Mary. We must minutely analyze this tremendous parallel. Its importance cannot be overestimated. For in the operation of Eve in the Fall we have a Biblical blueprint for detailed diagram of the part played by Mary in salvation. The Fall was the first Type on the Old Testament. These types were in the Old Testament what the parables were in the New Testament. It would be incorrect to regard them as being no more than picturesque images. They were sketches of the future Jesus and Mary, each containing some fragment of doctrine, so that when all of them are put together, the result is startling as a picture of what was to come.

He also said this:

Mary is so much part of God’s idea that without her we do not grasp His idea. She is, as the Church sings, at the beginning of God’s ways with us. And she accompanies every step up of that way. If we find we have diverged from her, it is a sign we have left the Christian road. She is one of the special outward marks of grace and orthodoxy. We cannot receive the kisses of the Babe without touching his Mother. We cannot hope to have His blood drip transformingly upon us unless we stand beside her at the Cross.

 

[onenow1]

Jesus Christ is the Ark.

HI, again emeraldisle. Your above statement is confusing emeraldisle ! You use one passage as aproof text, because the word all says, all have sinned. Then you go on to say the ark is Jesus, a bible only stance which is untenable :

You are contridicting the the church’s exegesis using your understanding or what you have heard is the understanding. And here’s why !

Who is to be saved emeraldisle ?
Does the Bible say bible only ?Of course not !
The bible states the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Either you believe all ] that is in the bible or you pick and choose.

“And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved”, Acts 2:47, King James Bible.
Note the singular, “the church”.

Its bible, Tradition, and the one true church !

Have to run golf awaits.

Peace, OneNow1