God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[Tantum_ergo]

Gee, emeraldisle, you got called away the night before lastt–and then again last night-- before you could answer questions people were asking of you. I know you want to address them.

So:

From JMJ Coder:

Please show where it says explicitly “Mary is a sinner” - remember her name must be used in the verse; you cannot interpolate, since that has already been shown to be a no-go over and over and over and over again here.

From VociMike:

We require your answer in order to frame our answer. Give an answer and you’ll get an answer. Just tell us, if you simply can’t discuss the sins of stillborn babies, who does Rom 5:12 apply to? Who is exempt from Rom 5:12 and who is not exempt?

From me

Emeraldisle, please answer the question.

Does a stillborn–or a newborn–sin?

Yes. . .or no.

It is such a simple and petty question. Why can’t you simply answer?

 

[VociMike]

In the following verse you will be able to see that sin is mentioned with death.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

It is not hyperbole to say death passed upon all men, nor is the all have sinned hyperbole. Paul was inspired by God to write the Truth that all have sinned.

So tell us what sin a newborn baby has committed. Pretend we are pagans investigating Christianity. What would you tell us then? Would you refuse to answer our questions and perhaps allow us to walk away from Jesus Christ? Would you take such guilt upon yourself when you could have simply answered our question?

What are you afraid of?

I repeat, what are you afraid of? What is the fear that grips you regarding this simple question?

 

[po18guy]

This is a good example of the problems with Catholic theology. Assumptions are treated as facts. The idea that Mary was " uncorrupted and perfect as God intended for the human race" is a case in point. There is no evidence for this claim anywhere in Scripture. The incarnation did not demand a perfect sinless woman for Him to take on human flesh.

Q: Where does the bible say that?
A: It does not. Are you adding to scripture here?

You seem to imply that the Archangel Gabriel was lying when He said “Hail, full of grace”. Full of grace means empty of sin. Name one other creation who was so addressed. Can’t.

Show the verses that state that Joseph fathered other children with Mary. Can’t.

Rather, this is a good example of the continuing confusion of the numerous Protestant seminary students who use this username. They are walking in darkness. No wonder the confusion!

Reject the authority behind the bible and you reject the bible.

 

[larry_m]

…Joseph fathered children with Mary]

You better read before you say such statements. Read Ps. 69:8,9, concerning the Messiah. Also Matt. 1:24,25;13:54-56;Mark 6:3;John 7:5. So much for the “ever virgin Mary.” I see you are still equating “full of grace” with sinlesness. Very weak argument.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You do realize that Michal, wife of David, had no children until the day of her death, according to Scripture. Guess she must have had them after.

Oh, and Scripture tells us that Christ shall reign until the devil has been cast down. Guess that ‘afterward’ he must stop reigning, eh?

As for all thebrethren of the Lord, every one of them mentioned in Scripture can be found, proven by Scripture itself, to be the child of a woman other than Mary, Mother of Christ. Every single solitary one.

And where were all of Christ’s supposed brothers and sisters when He was lost in the temple at the age of 12? No mention of them. Why not?

And how did Christ’s supposed ‘younger’ brothers dare to criticize them – something which was not culturally acceptable and which would have been noted in the gospel.

And why did Christ ‘give Mary’ to St. John at the foot of the cross–a grave insult to his supposed ‘brothers’ which again would have needed extensive notation in Scripture to explain why Christ did not follow the ‘law’ here. Every other place in Scripture where Christ is mentioned as doing something which the Pharisees find ‘wrong’, Christ is JUSTIFIED and Scripture records why. . .but not here. Why not?

And why did Martin Luther and John Calvin attest to Mary’s perpetual Virginity? Why was it Christian teaching for 1600 years and more and even believed by the first Protestants, then suddenly found to (supposedly) be wrong?

Who ‘changed’ the teaching? Not Catholics. The idea of Mary being other than perpetually virgin is a ‘tradition of men’ … . sadly misguided men who defy Scripture.

 

[TobyLue]

emeraldisle

With all due respect you are barking up the wrong tree. I’m addressing what God tells us in His written word about Mary. Its other posters who are trying to address the stillborn baby issue. If they feel so strongly about this issue then they should start another thread about it.

Talk about barking up the wrong tree dude/dudess, You keep saying “God tells us in His written word about Mary” but nowhere does the Word of God say that Mary has sinned. It says “all” have sinned but we have shown you where there are exceptions. You keep saying you follow the Word of God and keep saying that the written word says that Mary sinned. Please give us ignorant Catholics the book, chapter verse where it says “Mary has sinned”. We asked you about the stillborn baby issue because you cant separate one from the other. You are including Mary in the word “all” and if you are going to do that then you have NO CHOICE, emeraldisle, to include stillborn babies, babies with severe downs syndrome, babies that are born without a brain, babies that have been brutally aborted, etc., in the word “All”. So if you are going to include Mary in the “All” then answer the question for the millionth time. Do you say “all” as including stillborn babies? A simple yes or no is all we are asking but you keep saying the same bs all the time.

 

[TobyLue]

emeraldisle

The** fact is Mary did not live a sinless life and this fact is so clearly revealed by God in the fact **that she was part of sinful humanity.

If it is clearly revealed by God, then the scripture would say “Mary has sinned”. please show us clearly where it say so in scripture. Book, chapter, and verse and it has to be those clear unambiguous words. Give us the facts and not your seriously flawed interpretations that were not held for 1500+ years.
You are sinking fast and are stretching your hand and grabbing nothing but empty air. glub, glub, glub, 1, glub, glub, glub, 2, glub, glub, glub 3, so long dude/dudess.

 

[TobyLue]

emeraldisle

think you need to start acknowledging the fact that God is the supreme authority on Truth and that He clearly tells us the Truth in His written word

Is your interpretation of the Written Word of God infallible? Yes or no?

 

[TobyLue]

emeraldisle

you have failed to connect this issue with Mary and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

you want to be technical. Lets see, from the KJV :Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Hmmm I do not see the word “Mary has sinned” what KJV version are you looking at? And since you are being technical, is says “all men”. I guess all women are sinless then according to your infallible interpretation.

 

[larry_m]

To Tobylue. The Greek word for men is ‘anthropos’, human being. Generic word as in man for mankind. Paul would be remiss if he didn’t mean all human beings since he knows Eve, Jezebel, etc… were sinners.

 

[TobyLue]

emeraldisle

Your argument is with God not me, I’m simply presenting what God has told us in His written word concerning Christ’s sinlessness and the fact that Mary was part of sinful humanity.

My argument is not with God, My argument and that of the many Catholics that have answered you is with your flawed interpretation. YOU are the one that is insisting that “all” means “all” but we know from scripture there are exceptions. You have refused to answer the many questions that have been asked of you. Instead you just quote the same thing over and over.

 

[po18guy]

Po18guy;4250827:

…Joseph fathered children with Mary]

You better read before you say such statements. Read Ps. 69:8,9, concerning the Messiah. Also Matt. 1:24,25;13:54-56;Mark 6:3;John 7:5. So much for the “ever virgin Mary.” I see you are still equating “full of grace” with sinlesness. Very weak argument.

Who needs gun control? The world needs bible control!

 

[po18guy]

Are these writings of church fathers considered inspired-inerrant? Do their writings carry the same authority as the Scriptures?

Your bible is inspired-inerrant only because a Pope said so. Live with it.

 

[po18guy]

emeraldisleMy argument is not with God, My argument and that of the many Catholics that have answered you is with your flawed interpretation. YOU are the one that is insisting that “all” means “all” but we know from scripture there are exceptions. You have refused to answer the many questions that have been asked of you. Instead you just quote the same thing over and over.

Adam and Eve were human. Did they have “original sin” when they were created?

How weak, how pitiful the god of non-believers - who cannot create a third human without sin!

 

[Mike_Dye]

Yes thats the heart of the problem, you said Mary was sinless at conception but God tells us in His written word that Mary was part of sinful humanity.

.

No It doesn’t , You have in no way, page after page on this tread done anything but reiterated the same, " If it is not in the Bible it is not true". Well others on this forum have pointed out that Marys lack of sin is actually scriptural. The fact that you are unable to read scripture beyond the first grade level is not our fault. The Bible is like an onion, We peel away one layer just to find there is a whole new layer of understanding, and after that another, then another. I promise you that you will never convince a Catholic beyond the second grade level of Biblical understanding that your views on Mary are correct. Sorry guy, nice try but no cigar.

 

[placido]

Are these writings of church fathers considered inspired-inerrant? Do their writings carry the same authority as the Scriptures?

The writings of the ECF are neither inspired-inerrant nor do they have the same authority as Scripture but, at least they are more authoritative then your writings here. On what grounds do you want us to believe what you write in direct opposition to what the ECF wrote?

 

[Good_Fella]

God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity.

God explicitly tells us in his written word that Jesus was “sinless” since Jesus is the unblemished Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. In other words, we must know that God did in fact send his Son into the world to atone for our sins and reconcile us with the Father. Jesus replaced the unblemished lamb at Passover in the Judaic tradition. But the Spirit of the Word speaks for Christ to his Church and implictly tells us in the written word that Mary was sinless in virtue of her Divine Maternity. She bore the unblemished Lamb of God as the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant carried his Word. Luke, who typifies Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, portrays the mother of our Lord as pure and undefiled: sinless. He need not explicitly write that Mary was “sinless”, for our Blessed Mother was not fashioned by God to die for our sins. Her divine maternal role was collaborative, which required that she be pure and spotless in virtue of her divine offspring.

The Angel went to her and said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

"But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as ‘the sound of your greeting’ reached my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy?
Luke 1, 43-44

As the ark of the Lord was entering the city of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him in her heart.
2 Samuel 6, 16

Moreover, to completely undo the fall of mankind brought about by Eve’s seduction of Adam, Mary had to be the antitype of Eve. Woman contributed to the fall, so God ordained that woman should contribute to man’s redemption. Mary, the free Woman of Promise, prefigured by Sarah who opposes the slave Hagar, could not have undertaken this vital part in the economy of salvation if she were under the slavery of sin and on common ground with the serpent who seduced Eve. Eve was created sinless before she succumbed to the word of the serpent. Luke perceives Mary as the New Eve as well, so he couldn’t have believed she were sinful.He alludes to her as one who heard the word of God and kept it (cf.11:28).

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 38

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He (She) will crush your head, while you lie in wait at his (her) heel.
Genesis 3, 15

Then Uzziah said to her, “Blessed are you daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women of earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.”
Judith 13, 18

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
Luke 1, 42, 45

Scripture is not the sole medium of Divine revelation. Jesus founded his one universal Church on Peter and the Apostles to serve as the custodian of the divine truth. This truth is mediated by Sacred Tradition, alongside Scripture, and explicitly taught by the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Church. Dogma acts to make explicit what is implicit in Scripture and constantly preceived in the life of the Church through the centuries by the activity of the Holy Spirit. The Immaculate Conception and the personal sinlessness of Mary belong to the deposit of faith: Scripture and Tradition. Scripture alone is formally insufficient as a medium of Divine revelation, since Scripture originates from Tradition. The two mediums of Divine revelation compliment each other. Jesus founded a Church. He did not publish a Bible. The Church takes precedence in communicating the Word of God.

“And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary.”
Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

“He was formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hyppolytus (A.D. 235)
*
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”*

• Ambrose (A.D. 388)*

 

[po18guy]

No It doesn’t , You have in no way, page after page on this tread done anything but reiterated the same, " If it is not in the Bible it is not true". Well others on this forum have pointed out that Marys lack of sin is actually scriptural. The fact that you are unable to read scripture beyond the first grade level is not our fault. The Bible is like an onion, We peel away one layer just to find there is a whole new layer of understanding, and after that another, then another. I promise you that you will never convince a Catholic beyond the second grade level of Biblical understanding that your views on Mary are correct. Sorry guy, nice try but no cigar.

The solution to the profound ignorance that is being spouted on these forums is to demand that all Protestants be in union with one another before we will listen.

 

[RNRobert]

The solution to the profound ignorance that is being spouted on these forums is to demand that all Protestants be in union with one another before we will listen.

I think that woould be a rather long time to wait…

 

[placido]

The solution to the profound ignorance that is being spouted on these forums is to demand that all Protestants be in union with one another before we will listen.

If that is the solution, get ready for perpetual “spouting of profound ignorance” because Protestants will never be in union with one another. To do that is to become Catholic.