God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[ConallCernach]

“Hail, Mary,FULL of Grace…”

Not explicit but implicit…hugely. When there is a road sign you must first read the sign.

Of course he takes Scripture literally, with the exception of the Old Testament and the New Testament…

 

[emeraldisle]

Keep in mind that you do not actually accept Scriptural references like “full of grace”

Neither do your fellow Catholic’s accept this translation.

"Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the translation ‘full of grace,’ opting instead for the less theologically loaded praises ‘endowed with grace; dearly loved.’ The MNT task force translates it as ‘graciously favored by God,’ while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, ‘full of grace,’ is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators. The most recent standard Catholic translations the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, ‘O highly favored daughter’; JB, ‘So highly favored’) [Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? (New York: Calvary Press, 2001) p. 129].

aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2490

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[ConallCernach]

Neither do your fellow Catholic’s accept this translation.

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The closest to official Bible of the Catholic Church is the Revised Standard Version: Catholic Edition, which does say “Full of Grace”.

 

[redrosetea]

The Catholic canon of the Bible was the one translated by St Jerome about 400 AD…I trust it completely…It was the only Bible used for 1500 years…but everyone is wrong except for you…I don’t trust a thing you say

 

[ConallCernach]

The Catholic canon of the Bible was the one translated by St Jerome about 400 AD…I trust it completely…It was the only Bible used for 1500 years…but everyone is wrong except for you…I don’t trust a thing you say

I hope that wasn’t aimed at me. =p

 

[VociMike]

But show me where God tells us in His written word that Mary is an exception?

Hah! You just admitted that countless millions of babies who never lived to adulthood have not sinned. Don’t deny it. So you’ve opened the floodgates for exceptions.

The Truth is that the Lord Jesus is the only person who lived a complete and total sinless life and God clearly tells us this true fact in His written word.

So now you’re claiming that newborn babies have sinned?! You are all over the map on this! Yes they do sin, no they don’t sin, yes they do, no they don’t! Yes! No! Surely the Holy Spirit is not the source of your confusion. No, rather, the source of your confusion is in your attempt to understand God’s revelation on your own, outside the light of the Church. And thus you have no idea whether God tells us that newborns can sin, or that they cannot sin. You have no idea what God teaches us about such a crucial subject.

Your confusion on this matter is a textbook example of the failure of sola Scriptura. It is the foundation of Protestantism, and it simply does not work.

 

[justasking4]

redrosetea;4253073]You can’t be full of grace and full of sin…it’s like being a bit pregnant…either you are or you are not

Where in Scripture does it even hint that being full of grace means you can’t sin?

I feel sorry for you…Mary is one of the treasures Christ left for us to love

Where did Jesus say anything about Mary being a treasure and that you should implore her help? Where in Scripture did He say such a thing?

 

[justasking4]

Hah! You just admitted that countless millions of babies who never lived to adulthood have not sinned. Don’t deny it. So you’ve opened the floodgates for exceptions.

So now you’re claiming that newborn babies have sinned?! You are all over the map on this! Yes they do sin, no they don’t sin, yes they do, no they don’t! Yes! No! Surely the Holy Spirit is not the source of your confusion. No, rather, the source of your confusion is in your attempt to understand God’s revelation on your own, outside the light of the Church. And thus you have no idea whether God tells us that newborns can sin, or that they cannot sin. You have no idea what God teaches us about such a crucial subject.

Your confusion on this matter is a textbook example of the failure of sola Scriptura. It is the foundation of Protestantism, and it simply does not work.

Why does the Catholic church baptize its babies?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Gee, where in Scripture did Jesus say, “I have founded a Bible, here is the table of contents, and BTW, everything I have ever said or taught is right here in Scripture so you’d better make sure that you only believe something is so if you see it in Scripture. . unless, of course, Catholics teach it, in which case you can claim they’re reading it wrong or it’s only symbolic?”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Why does the Catholic church baptize its babies?

Um, we asked first, and we’d appreciate an answer first.

But if you want to play ‘question’. . . why don’t you tell me why so many Protestant churches **don’t **baptize babies?

 

[emeraldisle]

Hah! You just admitted that countless millions of babies who never lived to adulthood have not sinned. Don’t deny it. So you’ve opened the floodgates for exceptions.

Yes we know from the Scriptures that Jesus is the exception.

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22

But show me where God tells us in His written word that Mary is an exception?

The Truth is that God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless. Also a person can sin in thought, action and word and there is the sin of omission.

The Truth is that the Lord Jesus is the only person who lived a complete and total sinless life and God clearly tells us this true fact in His written word. Also remember the Lord Jesus was God/Man and this is why He was able to live a total sinless life and He had to do this in order to be the perfect sinless sacrifice when He died on the cross for sinners like you, me and Mary.

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[justasking4]

Tantum ergo;4253368]Um, we asked first, and we’d appreciate an answer first.

What question are you referring to?

But if you want to play ‘question’. . . why don’t you tell me why so many Protestant churches **don’t **baptize babies?

True baptism requires first a person to acknowledge his sin, then repent and believe in Christ Who died for those sins and rose again. Babies are incapable of doing of fulfilling these requirements.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, emeraldisle. Good to see you. Would you mind answering the questions we’ve brought up every day for the last 3 days? Here they are:

Gee, emeraldisle, you got called away the night before lastt–and then again last night-- before you could answer questions people were asking of you. I know you want to address them.

So:

From JMJ Coder:

Please show where it says explicitly “Mary is a sinner” - remember her name must be used in the verse; you cannot interpolate, since that has already been shown to be a no-go over and over and over and over again here.

From VociMike:

We require your answer in order to frame our answer. Give an answer and you’ll get an answer. Just tell us, if you simply can’t discuss the sins of stillborn babies, who does Rom 5:12 apply to? Who is exempt from Rom 5:12 and who is not exempt?

From me

Emeraldisle, please answer the question.

Does a stillborn–or a newborn–sin?

Yes. . .or no.

It is such a simple and petty question. Why can’t you simply answer?

 

[guanophore]

I’ve already explained to you that the “stillborn baby” has nothing to do with Mary.

It seems that you would like it not to be related, because if you relate it, then it blows the whole arguement. You are basing your contention that Mary was “sinful” on Rom 5:12, when it is clear that in this passage, “all” does not mean all without exceptions.

In fact, you have violated one of the basic tenents of Sola Scriptura by failing to allow “scripture to interpret scripture”. You refuse to look back at the psalm from which Paul took this quote, which makes it clear that “all” does NOT mean all witout exception.

   You have failed to connect this issue with Mary and the fact that God tells us in His written word in Rom 5:12 that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

I am sure you don’t want it to “connect” and it does appear that, in your case, it does not.

Rom 5:12 does not say that “Mary is part of sinful humanity”. In fact, there is no place in scripture where your term “sinful humanity” is used. It is an insertion based upon your own fanciful speculaton.

You would like to believe that you are deriving your theology from scripture, but in fact, you are deriving it from other extrabiblical sources, and trying to read it back into scripture.

In all honesty I expected to face “real” issues in this discussion and not petty chat about “stillborn babies”.

I think you are not ready for any “real” discussion, because you have yet to master the basics of the Apostolic message. You don’t seem to understand the difference between original, mortal, and venial sins.

I’m still waiting for someone to present evidence to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word regarding the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

And we are waiting for you to show us the verse “regarding the fact that Mary is part of sinful humanity”. Maybe when you can do that, we can proceed?

 

[VociMike]

Why does the Catholic church baptize its babies?

The OP isn’t Catholic, so how does that relate to the OP’s schizophrenic interpretations of Rom 5:12?

 

[VociMike]

Why does the Catholic church baptize its babies?

It’s not because of any sin they have committed, that’s for sure.

 

[emeraldisle]

Ah, emeraldisle. Good to see you. Would you mind answering the questions we’ve brought up every day for the last 3 days? Here they are:

Gee, emeraldisle, you got called away the night before lastt–and then again last night-- before you could answer questions people were asking of you. I know you want to address them.

So:

From JMJ Coder:

From VociMike:

From me

Questions have been answered but you don’t like/accept the answers. Not my problem.

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[guanophore]

So your theology is - stillborn baby + Mary = sinlessness ???

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No, our theology is that “all” in Rom. 5:12 does not mean “all” in the sense that you are trying to apply it, and that Mary is one of the exceptions (among many).

 

[justasking4]

It’s not because of any sin they have committed, that’s for sure.

True. However the church does consider baptism absolutely essential and if the baby dies it could be condemned. Correct?

 

[emeraldisle]

Rom 5:12 does not say that “Mary is part of sinful humanity”.

Are you trying to suggest that instead of God inspiring Paul to write “for that all have sinned” in Rom 5:12, he should have written “for that Shaun, Sally, John, Jill, George, Catherine, Paul, Hannah etc, etc, etc… have sinned”. Are you trying to suggest that all the names of all the people who have sinned should be written in this verse?? It is so obvious that Mary is included in the all have sinned in Rom 5:12.

Now if you want to try and disprove what God tells us in His written word then you need to present the evidence that shows that Mary was born without sin and that she lived her entire life without ever sinning. Remember it only takes a person to sin once to disqualify them from being called sinless.

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