God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

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Pixie_Dust said:
Sure, God can, but He didn’t and I wouldn’t presume to tell Him that He messed up by letting us be sinners in need of a Savior, and giving us the free will to choose Him over sin. Jesus came to save us from our sins. Mary was the first human to benefit from that gift of God. We, too, can be without sin, because of what Jesus merited for us by His death and resurrection.
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Christians are not sinless in this earth.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
 
Oh yippie! Thank you for the reply Emerald! You state:" Yes Jesus came into this world to save sinners, like you, me and Mary." Very good! This is true! Now that we’re on the same page I’ll add a few details - God saved Mary at her conception in her mother’s womb! He also preserved her her entire life long! Now THAT’s Salvation with a captial “S” I’d say!

As for His saving actions in my own life…I could tell you the date of my Baptism or I could yak it up about a “close call” I had with death. But would you consider that a saving action? Or how about that temptation I beat the other day? Is that also one of God’s saving actions? Lots to talk about…

And what of you? Can you elaborate on God’s saving actions in your life? Are you saved?

Oh, would you please quote the Scriptures for me? I want to be sure of the passage you are using. I’m kinda duh.

Peace,

Gail
 
emeraldisle said:
Yes thats true but God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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Ummm…I am :whistle: old, yean. I have been reading and studying the Bible for, quite likely,:whistle: more years than you have been out of diapers, and I have yet to read there, the words you so boldly state above, which I have (😉 conveniently) bolded for you.
Chapter and verse, laddie. chapter and verse.
You laid down the rule “only in the written word of God.”
I am waiting…but:shrug: I am getting:whistle: older. I have all ready had one open-heart surgery, and would, 😉 sil vous plait, like my answer before I need:bigyikes: ** another** surgery in order to keep me propped in front of Windows XL, waiting…waiting…waiting…waiting…http://bestsmileys.com/sad/8.gif???
 
Zooey said:
Ummm…I am :whistle: old, yean. I have been reading and studying the Bible for, quite likely,:whistle: more years than you have been out of diapers, and I have yet to read there, the words you so boldly state above, which I have (😉 conveniently) bolded for you.
Chapter and verse, laddie. chapter and verse.
You laid down the rule “only in the written word of God.”
I am waiting…but:shrug: I am getting:whistle: older. I have all ready had one open-heart surgery, and would, 😉 sil vous plait, like my answer before I need ** another** surgery in order to keep me propped in front of Windows XL, waiting…waiting…waiting…waiting…http://bestsmileys.com/sad/8.gif???
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Luv your use of the smilies 😃

Are you trying to suggest that Mary was an alien from outer space???

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emeraldisle said:
Christians are not sinless in this earth.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10
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What about verses 6-7? If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
And what about the very next words out of his mouth, 1 John 2:1? My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin.

If it’s not possible to be completely free from sin, then what does the blood of Jesus do? Cleanse us from some of our sins? :confused:
 
Emeraldisle, I suggest you read the post Tantum Ergo made on the first page. Read it carefully.

God Bless
 
emeraldisle said:
The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless.
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And God enabled Mary to be born sinless. It is not that Mary was not in need of redemption. Jesus - who is God - transcends time. As such, He applied the merits of the Cross, which has redeemed the world, to Mary at the moment of her conception.
emeraldisle said:
Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus.
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That is a very disgusting and offensive statement. You are in effect equating the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, with a brood mare. DO NOT DO THAT ANYMORE!!!
 
Pixie_Dust said:
What about verses 6-7? If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
7 But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
And what about the very next words out of his mouth, 1 John 2:1? My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin.

If it’s not possible to be completely free from sin, then what does the blood of Jesus do? Cleanse us from some of our sins? :confused:
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Are you sinless?

Does the Catholic Church teach that its members are sinless?

.
 
emeraldisle said:
The fact is that Mary was part of sinful humanity and God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

and God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless although He was part of sinful humanity.
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You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. Either you take the stance that ‘all’ is an absolute literal and admits absolutely no exceptions, in which case that makes Jesus a sinner, in direct contradiction to Scripture - or you recognize that it is not an absolute and more of a biblical generality (the only ones I know who have absolutely no sin - original or actual are Jesus, who is God and Mary, to whom the merits of the Cross were applied at the moment of her conception).
 
emeraldisle said:
Luv your use of the smilies 😃

Are you trying to suggest that Mary was an alien from outer space???

.
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No, I’m just getting:eek: older and older and its getting closer and closer to http://bestsmileys.com/sleeping/1.gif and nearer and nearer to :heaven: and still I keep waiting on that verse you need to be quoting for us before the http://bestsmileys.com/clocks/7.gif run out for me, and I stillhttp://bestsmileys.com/sad/6.gif haven’t heard the answer to my question…

Where in the Bible does it say that ''Mary was sinful"???
http://bestsmileys.com/clocks/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/sleeping/10.gif
 
emeraldisle said:
Are you sinless?

Does the Catholic Church teach that its members are sinless?
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No. We can certainly claim that it is - with the aid of God - to live a sinless life. But even those who do not commit actual sins are effected by original sin (all but Jesus and Mary).

There are many who have led exemplary and even sinless lives. Usually not their entire life, but after a point of conversion they are completely absorbed and consumed by God and sin no more. We should all heed and take their example.
 
Consequently, we too receive the Holy Spirit if we love the Church, if we are joined together by charity, if we rejoice in the Catholic name and faith. Let us believe, brethren; as much as every man loves the Church of Christ, so much has he the Holy Spirit.
–Saint Augustine (Tractatus in Io 32, 8 )​
 
I’m confused. Did God write the Bible? Did Jesus write the Bible? What relation does the Bible have to God?
 
Some good reading from:) Father Wesley:
gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/plainaccount.stm

(Since you seem to :rolleyes: object to Catholic source material…)

I especially like this:
"But does not the Scripture say, A just man sinneth seven times a day?' It does not. Indeed it says, A just man falleth seven times.’ But this is quite another thing; for, First, the words, a day, are not in the text. Secondly, here is no mention of falling into sin at all. What is here mentioned, is, falling into temporal affliction.
"But elsewhere Solomon says, There is no man that sinneth not.' Doubtless thus it was in the days of Solomon; yea, and from Solomon to Christ there was then no man that sinned not. But whatever was the case of those under the law, we may safely affirm, with St. John, that, since the gospel was given, lie that is born of God sinneth not.’ "The privileges of Christians are in nowise to be measured by what the Old Testament records concerning those who were under the Jewish dispensation; seeing the fulness of time is now come, the Holy Ghost is now given, the great salvation of God is now brought to men by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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👍 👍
 
Zooey said:
Some good reading from:) Father Wesley:
gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/plainaccount.stm

(Since you seem to :rolleyes: object to Catholic source material…)
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Or he could read Martin Luther, who also believed in the Immaculate Conception.

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Martin Luther Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin. (Martin Luther Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)
 
JMJ_coder said:
Or he could read Martin Luther, who also believed in the Immaculate Conception.

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Martin Luther Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin. (Martin Luther Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527)
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👍 👍

Or, the words of Holy Writ: “There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus; who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
And to folllow St Paul’s reasoning, if there is ''no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus", how much more is there no condemnation in her, in whom Christ Jesus was conceived by that same “Spirit of life”!!!

Amazing,simply amazing, how many there are, who claim Christ, yet:( refuse to come out of the Old Testament long enough to see what it may have to say to us…
 
redrosetea said:
You are nor using reason …Christ inherited his DNA from Mary…original sin is passed to us by our parents…If Mary had original sin, Jesus would have had it too…He needed a pure vessel to be his mother, not one that was tainted by Adam and Eve…Christ was God’s rescue plan for human kind…he had to be free from sin…Unless His mother was also , he would have never been sinless
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Yes, this would appear to be true, since Paul tells the Hebrews that Jesus was “like us in all things but sin.” And, of course, God couldn’t have directly interevened by preserving his Son free from original sin as he did with Mary. This would presuppose that Jesus was in need of a saviour.

Most Protestants I’ve encountered fail to see the implication here, for they mistakenly believe that original sin is passed on only by the father. But the truth is that we are affected by it through both parents. It is the seed which initially effects the transmission as a separate active principle. The mother is the non-separate passive principle behind the offspring’s generation, according to Aquinas, who has been vindicated by Mendel & Co. in their scientific findings. The male seed primarily serves as a vehicle of transmission. The offspring inherits the genetic traits of both parents upon germination of the seed in the mother’s womb.

PAX :harp:
 
guanophore said:
I don’t think this is true. When the angel greets Mary with the title “Full of Grace”, he does so because she is in that state. Since the fullness of grace is the opposite of sin, Mary was sinless at the time of the Greeting. This cannot happen unless God preserves a person from sin.
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Agreed. However, some need the actual word “sinless” for it to be believed as such. (some are just too literal) By the way, this approach you are taking is excellent- and one the Eastern Catholics, and of course the Eastern Orthodox stress. They say she was so filled with grace, sin had no room to enter. Rather than the more typical latin approach, that does not emphasize this positive way of seeing it as much, but in a different (not inferior) way.
 
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