God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

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Don’t need to speculate about what sins Mary committed. Don’t go beyond what God has written in His written word.

Daniel was a sinner like Mary but God doesn’t tell us in His written word what sins Daniel committed.
such a statement admits a great ignorance of Scripture. :eek:
Yes thats true but God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.
every man (woman) did what was right in her own eyes.

Tell me. If God decided to create a woman who was without sin, would you consider that a personal insult to yourself? :confused:
 
Yes Jesus came into this world to save sinners, like you, me and Mary.

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. 1 Tim 1:15 .
Amen! That is why she proclaimed Him “my savior”. Yet, He was her savior before he came “into” this world. 😉
 
The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right? .
Was that "used by’ similar to how we “use” the sewage pipe that empties from the toilet to the street?

Having recently had mine replaced, I am mindful that thing must pass through unimpeded…
 
Yes so God should have created us all without sin and then kept us all from sinning so He wouldn’t have needed to send His Son to die such a cruel death on the cross for sinners.

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As Jesus taught in His parable, “are you jealous because I am generous with my money?”

Why does it bother you that He might prepare for Himself a vessel worthy of HIs presence?
 
Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless.

Why did Jesus need to come into this world to save sinners when God can just create us without sin and keep us sinless?

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This is a very just question. What is your answer?
 
Yes you are right about that.

Thats why I don’t believe in fanciful speculations, I believe what God tells us in His written word and He has clearly told us that all of humanity is sinful and this includes Mary.

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You seem to be falling a bit short, limiting yourself to the writings. 🤷

2 Thess 2:15
" So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter."

Do you imagine that the truth the Apostles taught was signifanctly different, by word of mouth, or by letter?
 
Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless.

Why did Jesus need to come into this world to save sinners when God can just create us without sin and keep us sinless?

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I figure I’ll hop back in here.

God created us without sin. As he created the angels, arc angels, seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominions, powers etc, without sin. But God wanted us to be able to love Him and each other. Love is freely chosen, if you are forced to love then it is not love. With the capability to love comes the ability to not love. The unloving of God is sin.

So either God could have made everything trees or He could have creation that could both love and hate.

-Conall Cernach
 
Dear Emeraldisle - You state:" Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless." Does this fanciful speculation include Genesis? Or are you of a mind that writes Genesis off to a literary device or is it mythological?

If you aren’t and agree that the accounts of Creation are fact, then yes it is true God can and DID create human beings who had no sin. He kept them in the Garden of Eden and things were quite different. Then the devil entered into to Eden to try them. They failed God and fell. Do you think if God had wanted to He could have prevented their falling?

So, let me be clear, I’m assuming you agree that Adam and Eve weren’t mythological persons or mere literary devices and that they were actual human beings created by God in His own image. They were created by Him without any sins. *They didn’t even have knowlege of good and evil! * So, if you agree with this part that God can and did create two persons, male and female without any sins or even knowlege of sin, why is it such a hard strech of your imagination to think that God might repeat His creating actions for His own mother?

What we as Catholics say is that yes it is possible for God to create human beings without sin and in fact He did! (The Good News!) Not only Adam and Eve, but also His own Mother, Mary. The difference between Mary and ourselves is that she was also preserved by Him through His grace from ever sinning. (If you doubt whether or not the devil ever got near her, I could quote Revelations for you, but that might be too much for you.)

I suppose you could point to the passage in Romans and claim it includes Mary, but that isn’t correct and I think if St. Paul were here today, he would set you straight about your stretching his words to blaspheme God’s most Holy Mother! :eek: I could only hope your defamatory treatment of Mary, God’s Mother, and suggesting that she was merely “used” and disguarded by God would fall into the realm of fanciful speculations in your mind, and perhaps, in time that will change for you and you’ll come to love her the way we already do. That would really be a beautiful thing and if you ever get there, you’ll understand what we are saying to you here. If you’re like some I’ve talked to you’ll wonder how you could ever think about blaspheming her that way. I wish you were already there. I’ll trust that to the Divine Mercy.

Meantime, on this thread alone you have been given much valuable and useful information from which you could choose to grow and mature in faith. That is up to you. God will not force Himself or His Mother on you. That is the free will thing Adam and Eve goofed up on too, so you’re in good company. Free will is your gift from God; what you do with it is your gift back to Him. Think before you blaspheme Mary.

Peace,

Gail
 
I think --but of course I can’t be sure–according to the way he phrased it, Conall was saying that God originally created humanity (as part of creation that included all the other things in creation) --which would mean Adam and Eve–without sin.

Certainly you and I were born with original sin. . .but Mary was not. You are in for a big surprise one fine heavenly day.

–Emeraldaisle dies and goes into a large room shining with light. Though he has never ‘seen’ them before, he recognizes the beings there --First is Jesus. Nobody could mistake Jesus. There is emeraldisle’s guardian angel. . .now ‘known’. There in the background are all the saints. . .emeraldisle ‘knows’ them. . .St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Stephen the first martyr.

“Ah, emeraldisle” says Jesus. Emeraldisle falls flat on his face. All the sins he has ever done seem to flash before his eyes and he feels his complete unworthiness. “Emeraldisle, your sins are forgiven”, says Jesus. “Now I am taking you to the one who you long for. My Father.”

Emeraldisle beams with joy and relief while still deeply knowing his unworthiness.

Then Jesus beckons and a woman comes forward. There seems to be something familiar about her but emeraldisle just can’t seem to quite recognize her.

“But before you see My Father”, Jesus continues, “You’ll need to get acquainted with My Mother. She was always waiting for you to get to know her on earth but somehow you were never quite. . .um. . .ready then. In fact, I’m surprised you got to know me as well, since you did not know my mother at all.”

St. Peter comes over and whispers to Jesus.

“Oh, of course!” smiles Jesus. “All your friends over at Catholic Answers kept praying and praying for you to My Mother. You never really got to know her, but because of your friends, SHE got to know YOU and intereceded for you and was helping you to know me.”
 
I think --but of course I can’t be sure–according to the way he phrased it, Conall was saying that God originally created humanity (as part of creation that included all the other things in creation) --which would mean Adam and Eve–without sin.

Certainly you and I were born with original sin. . .but Mary was not. You are in for a big surprise one fine heavenly day.

–Emeraldaisle dies and goes into a large room shining with light. Though he has never ‘seen’ them before, he recognizes the beings there --First is Jesus. Nobody could mistake Jesus. There is emeraldisle’s guardian angel. . .now ‘known’. There in the background are all the saints. . .emeraldisle ‘knows’ them. . .St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Stephen the first martyr.

“Ah, emeraldisle” says Jesus. Emeraldisle falls flat on his face. All the sins he has ever done seem to flash before his eyes and he feels his complete unworthiness. “Emeraldisle, your sins are forgiven”, says Jesus. “Now I am taking you to the one who you long for. My Father.”

Emeraldisle beams with joy and relief while still deeply knowing his unworthiness.

Then Jesus beckons and a woman comes forward. There seems to be something familiar about her but emeraldisle just can’t seem to quite recognize her.

“But before you see My Father”, Jesus continues, “You’ll need to get acquainted with My Mother. She was always waiting for you to get to know her on earth but somehow you were never quite. . .um. . .ready then. In fact, I’m surprised you got to know me as well, since you did not know my mother at all.”

St. Peter comes over and whispers to Jesus.

“Oh, of course!” smiles Jesus. “All your friends over at Catholic Answers kept praying and praying for you to My Mother. You never really got to know her, but because of your friends, SHE got to know YOU and intereceded for you and was helping you to know me.”
Tantum ergo, that is a great message. Thank you for posting it.
 
God created Adam and Eve without sin but He didn’t created you, me or Mary without sin.

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He created me without sin, but I was tainted by original sin, and further tainted by actual sin.

“before I formed you in the whom, I knew you”

For her glorious purpose God interceded with Mary’s conception and saved her from original sin.
 
Dear Emeraldisle - You state:" Yes now that we are in the realm of fanciful speculation, lets just say God can create us all without sin and keep us all sinless." Does this fanciful speculation include Genesis? Or are you of a mind that writes Genesis off to a literary device or is it mythological?
Yes God tells us in His written word that He created Adam and Eve without sin and that the Lord Jesus was without sin.
If you aren’t and agree that the accounts of Creation are fact, then yes it is true God can and DID create human beings who had no sin. He kept them in the Garden of Eden and things were quite different. Then the devil entered into to Eden to try them. They failed God and fell. Do you think if God had wanted to He could have prevented their falling?
You know these creation facts because God has revealed them to us in His written word. God could have prevented Adam and Eve’s fall, He could have destroyed satan but the fact is He didn’t and we know the Truth about Adam and Eve and the fall because God has revealed to us in His written word.

However when we go beyond what God tells us in His written word we enter into the realm of fanciful speculation. Like fanciful speculative ideas that Mary was sinless.
So, let me be clear, I’m assuming you agree that Adam and Eve weren’t mythological persons or mere literary devices and that they were actual human beings created by God in His own image. They were created by Him without any sins. *They didn’t even have knowlege of good and evil! * So, if you agree with this part that God can and did create two persons, male and female without any sins or even knowlege of sin, why is it such a hard strech of your imagination to think that God might repeat His creating actions for His own mother?
We know that Adam and Eve were created by God and that they were created sinless because God tells us so in His written word. We know Jesus is sinless because God tells us this Truth in His written word. We know Mary was a sinner because God tells us all of humanity is sinful and she is part of sinful humanity.
What we as Catholics say is that yes it is possible for God to create human beings without sin and in fact He did! (The Good News!) Not only Adam and Eve, but also His own Mother, Mary. The difference between Mary and ourselves is that she was also preserved by Him through His grace from ever sinning.
Yes we know God created Adam and Eve without sin because He tells us so in His written word. However your idea that Mary was created sinless is just your fanciful speculation. God does not tell us in His written word that Mary was sinless, in fact He tells us all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity.
I could only hope your defamatory treatment of Mary, God’s Mother, and suggesting that she was merely “used” and disguarded by God
I have clearly stated in this thread that Mary is blessed because she was given the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus. Now how is defamatory treatment of Mary? Also I never said Mary was used and discarded by God. I said God used Mary to give birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus, are you saying this isn’t true?

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Not to be nitpicky, emeraldisle, but you said,
Also I never said Mary was used and discarded by God. I said God used Mary to give birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus, are you saying this isn’t true?
Let’s see exactly what you said.
Originally Posted by emeraldisle forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right?
“Simply used by God to give birth to Jesus.”

“Simply used to give birth.”

That’s it. Nothing about raising Jesus, caring for Him as a mother, loving Him, teaching Him.

"Simply used to give birth’.

Now please tell us how saying God ‘simply used’ Mary to ‘give birth’ is honoring her and calling her blessed.

When God ‘simply used her’.

Even stating that He ‘used’ her is contemptuous. How would you feel if God told you that he ‘simply used you’ in order for you to have a son or daughter who would be a mighty saint. . .the child you loved, taught, and cared for in order to help set that child on the path to sainthood. . .but God doesn’t even acknowledge you except as the vessel he ‘simply used’ in order to get the ‘important child’ --a saintly child, but certainly not ‘equal’ to His own Beloved Son!

And yet, God 'simply used Mary to give birth to his son". That’s it according to you.

And that’s sad.
 
He created me without sin, but I was tainted by original sin, and further tainted by actual sin.
You can’t be both created without sin and be born with sin.
For her glorious purpose God interceded with Mary’s conception and saved her from original sin.
More fanciful speculation.

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“You know these creation facts because God has revealed them to us in His written word. God could have prevented Adam and Eve’s fall, He could have destroyed satan but the fact is He didn’t and we know the Truth about Adam and Eve and the fall because God has revealed to us in His written word.”

Satan was a catalyst to sin, not the causation. Remember that Satan wasn’t tempted and at one time he too, was a fully pure being.

Also, I’m just going to say that Jesus isn’t sinless because it’s explicitly said in Scripture, He’s sinless because He is GOD.

“However your idea that Mary was created sinless is just your fanciful speculation.”

Just like how things need to be found explicitly in Scripture is fanciful speculation. Now for a third time I ask you, if you are so adherent to the literal interpretation of the Scripture, how many neighbours have you killed for skipping Church on Saturday?
 
You can’t be both created without sin and be born with sin.
I was known to God before I was formed in the womb, He had created me before I was created
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emeraldisle:
More fanciful speculation.

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I believe we covered this in my last post.
 
Not to be nitpicky, emeraldisle, but you said,

Let’s see exactly what you said. “Simply used by God to give birth to Jesus.”

“Simply used to give birth.”

That’s it. Nothing about raising Jesus, caring for Him as a mother, loving Him, teaching Him.
The context of my comments is the birth of Jesus and not His childhood, so yes God did simply use Mary to give birth to Jesus. Are you trying to suggest that God didn’t use Mary to give birth to Jesus?
The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right? .
PS: your other post was a brilliant piece of writing, you are certainly gifted in writing.

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Also, I’m just going to say that Jesus isn’t sinless because it’s explicitly said in Scripture, He’s sinless because He is GOD.
Remember Jesus is God/Man, this why it is very important that God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless. Also some people respond to the point about all of humanity being sinful by saying Jesus was part of humanity so He must be sinful. Now isn’t great to be able to refute this false argument by saying God tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.

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