God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[Zooey]

The RCC tradition is to pray to Mary not the Holy Spirit.

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[SIGN] I:heart:Google.:coffeeread: [/SIGN]

Was Mary a perpetual child??

Was Mary suffering from a hard mental illness??

[SIGN1]
Piffle.
Pshaw.
Pfui.
[/SIGN1]
You’re admitting to exceptions. You’re proving yourself wrong out of your own mouth. (OK, OK; out of your own keyboard ).
Sheesh.

The fact is that Mary was part of sinful humanity and God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

and God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus was sinless although He was part of sinful humanity.

Like I said…Out of your own keyboard.:dts: :yawn: http://bestsmileys.com/sleeping/10.gif

 

[emeraldisle]

No, Paul told us what we know that all have sinned. That is a bit like saying that all are in need of salvation. But not all have sinned in equal measure. Some are great sinners; others, not so . One must concede, I think, that Mary was not a great sinner given her proximity to the Lord. So of what sin was Mary guilty?The Bible does not say.

Don’t need to speculate about what sins Mary committed. Don’t go beyond what God has written in His written word.

Daniel was a sinner like Mary but God doesn’t tell us in His written word what sins Daniel committed.

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[emeraldisle]

To be honest with you, I don’t recall any words in the Bible that say The Blessed Virgin Mary was sinless.

Yes thats true but God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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[RosaryFan]

Yes thats true but God tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and of course Mary is part of sinful humanity.

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Mary was sinless from conception and throughout her life. If you know about her glorious Assumption and understand that God would not let decay touch her body, it stands to reason that sin (which is even more repugnant than mere decay) also did not touch the body of the woman who bore our Lord and savior in her womb. “Hail, Mary full of GRACE”.

 

[emeraldisle]

This thread is now pretty long and I’m not going to read all of the responses, I just want to put my two cents in. Could you EVER imagine God allowing His precious Son to enter a human body in any condition other than sinless??

Could you ever imagine God allowing His precious Son to bare our sins while He was naked on the cross? The Lord Jesus humbled Himself to come into this sinful world to be born by a virgin who was a sinner.

Common sense rules that Mary MUST be sinless.

So common sense over rules what God has told us in His written word?

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[RosaryFan]

Could you ever imagine God allowing His precious Son to bare our sins while He was naked on the cross? The Lord Jesus humbled Himself to come into this sinful world to be born by a virgin who was a sinner.

So common sense over rules what God has told us in His written word?

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I don’t recall God’s written word ever saying “Mary is no better than the rest of you wretched sinners”.

And YES, I can totally picture God allowing His precious Son to bare our sins while He was naked on the cross - that’s what keeps me going!

How do you explain the Angel Gabriel telling Mary she is full of grace? Do you think that was merely a snow job, or something? I’m sure he meant what he said. How, also, do you explain Mary telling her cousin, Elizabeth, that God is her Savior BEFORE Christ was crucified? She didn’t say “God will be my savior”. Could it possibly be that she was saved from sin before the rest of us, i.e. at conception??? Do you think it’s possible for God to save Mary from original sin? Are not ALL things possible with God?

But first things first. Explain your understanding of the Angel’s words, “…full of grace”.

 

[emeraldisle]

You are nor using reason …Christ inherited his DNA from Mary…original sin is passed to us by our parents.

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

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[emeraldisle]

How do you explain the Angel Gabriel telling Mary she is full of grace? Do you think that was merely a snow job, or something? I’m sure he meant what he said. How, also, do you explain Mary telling her cousin, Elizabeth, that God is her Savior BEFORE Christ was crucified? She didn’t say “God will be my savior”. Could it possibly be that she was saved from sin before the rest of us, i.e. at conception??? Do you think it’s possible for God to save Mary from original sin? Are not ALL things possible with God?

But first things first. Explain your understanding of the Angel’s words, “…full of grace”.

Are you sure about the “full of grace” translation??

"Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the translation ‘full of grace,’ opting instead for the less theologically loaded praises ‘endowed with grace; dearly loved.’ The MNT task force translates it as ‘graciously favored by God,’ while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, ‘full of grace,’ is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators. The most recent standard Catholic translations the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, ‘O highly favored daughter’; JB, ‘So highly favored’) [Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? (New York: Calvary Press, 2001) p. 129].

aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2490

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[RosaryFan]

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

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That doesn’t mean Mary couldn’t pass her DNA to Jesus (begotten not made). Jesus was taking on human form and needed DNA to accomplish this. I doubt he went to the DNA store. Mary’s would do just fine. Mary is Jesus’ physical mother from whom He inherited all of His DNA. The Holy Spirit is not physical, but spiritual and, therefore, has no DNA to pass to the Son. Therefore, all DNA was received from His mother, Mary (who was sinless at conception and throughout her entire life).

 

[emeraldisle]

That doesn’t mean Mary couldn’t pass her DNA to Jesus (begotten not made). Jesus was taking on human form and needed DNA to accomplish this. I doubt he went to the DNA store. Mary’s would do just fine. Mary is Jesus’ physical mother from whom He inherited all of His DNA. The Holy Spirit is not physical, but spiritual and, therefore, has no DNA to pass to the Son.

Who made DNA?

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

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[RosaryFan]

Are you sure about the “full of grace” translation??

"Even a Catholic source such as Zerwick avoids the translation ‘full of grace,’ opting instead for the less theologically loaded praises ‘endowed with grace; dearly loved.’ The MNT task force translates it as ‘graciously favored by God,’ while noting that the Douay Rheims translation, ‘full of grace,’ is not literal and is gradually being replaced among Roman Catholic translators. The most recent standard Catholic translations the NAB and the JB, have followed suit in their renditions (NAB, ‘O highly favored daughter’; JB, ‘So highly favored’) [Eric Svendsen, Who Is My Mother? (New York: Calvary Press, 2001) p. 129].

aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2490

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Yes, I’m absolutely sure.

Even the alternate translations you mention sound to me like she was spared from original sin. It sounds very obvious, in fact. I don’t know - maybe it’s my faith (Holy Spirit’s gift of understanding, in this particular case).

What about your take on Mary’s proclamation to Elizabeth? And allow me to add that Elizabeth said to Mary “Blessed are you among women”.

 

[RosaryFan]

Who made DNA?

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matt 1:20

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God made DNA. Sorry - don’t understand your point. Are you saying that God opted to formulate a strange DNA for Jesus rather than allowing Jesus to obtain DNA from His own mother? Then He wouldn’t have needed a mother, now, would He??

 

[emeraldisle]

Yes, I’m absolutely sure.

Even the alternate translations you mention sound to me like she was spared from original sin. It sounds very obvious, in fact. I don’t know - maybe it’s my faith (Holy Spirit’s gift of understanding, in this particular case).

Mary being graciously favored by God = her being sinless ???

Mary was graciously favored by God because she had the privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus.

What about your take on Mary’s proclamation to Elizabeth? And allow me to add that Elizabeth said to Mary “Blessed are you among women”.

Yes I agree Mary is truly blessed among women because she had the wonderful privilege of giving birth to the Blessed Lord Jesus.

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[Allan_M]

Don’t need to speculate about what sins Mary committed. Don’t go beyond what God has written in His written word.

Daniel was a sinner like Mary but God doesn’t tell us in His written word what sins Daniel committed.

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emeraldisle, it is you that goes beyond what God has written in His word because the bible does not claim to be the sole and complete deposit of Gods revelation to man… Sola scptura is a man made doctrine and if you know the scriptuers well enough to challenge the teaching of the RCC then deep down you know you are at fault. If I may speculate… I think that alot of the theology you recieve is mainly anti-catholic mixed with scripture rather than scripture leading you to believe that the RCC is in error.
God bless you friend…You have a mountain to climb.

 

[emeraldisle]

God made DNA. Sorry - don’t understand your point. Are you saying that God opted to formulate a strange DNA for Jesus rather than allowing Jesus to obtain DNA from His own mother? Then He wouldn’t have needed a mother, now, would He??

The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right?

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[GailMac]

Dear Emerald - I’m jumpin’ into this thread a little late but you state:" God clearly tells us in His written word that all of humanity is sinful and Mary is part of this sinful humanity. So how can anyone claim Mary is sinless when God has clearly told us she is part of sinful humanity. Yes Jesus was part of sinful humanity but He was sinless and we know this because God has told us so in His written word."

I find this a very despairing statement. Why on earth do you need to see things this way? Can anyone obtain sinlessness? Or is that something your interpretations of the Bible exclude? Why did Jesus come? To save us from our sins! And wouldn’t the first to receive this grace be His own Mother? BIG CLUE in the angel of God calling Mary very rightfully “full of grace!” It is His gift of grace that saves a man. Or are you miffed because He is generous with His money? (Yikes! I allude to last weekends Gospel? and you have no idea what I’m talking about anyway…duh)

Try to get your mind around this one - God came to save all men from their sins so why wouldn’t He begin with His own mother? Think of it this way - the Firstborn of the first saved - Mary! And she is where He wants us all - Heaven? It ain’t rocket science. Come on. Please don’t limit God’s omnipotence by your narrowmindedness.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. Would you please present the Scripture verses that state all humanity is a big bunch of sinners.

 

[Allan_M]

The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right?

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Yes but as you had to agree and co-operate with Gods grace to “get re-born” Blessed Virgin Mary had to agree and co-operate to get us all re-born.

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldisle, it is you that goes beyond what God has written in His word because the bible does not claim to be the sole and complete deposit of Gods revelation to man… Sola scptura is a man made doctrine and if you know the scriptuers well enough to challenge the teaching of the RCC then deep down you know you are at fault. If I may speculate… I think that alot of the theology you recieve is mainly anti-catholic mixed with scripture rather than scripture leading you to believe that the RCC is in error.
God bless you friend…You have a mountain to climb.

I’m simply stating what God tells us in His written word. When God says all of humanity is sinful, why does anyone then say Mary was sinless unless they believe that she wasn’t part of humanity.

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[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, yes, the same God who created us, loved us so much He sent us His only Son to redeem us, ‘used’ Mary as a vessel and discarded her.

I agree with Zooey. Out of your own keyboard. The pit you’re digging yourself into is getting deeper and deeper and deeper.

 

[RosaryFan]

The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus was conceived of God. God not Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Mary was simply used by God to give birth to Jesus. Remember God made Mary, right?

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That does not mean Mary wasn’t sinless. I never said God didn’t make Mary. I also never said that Mary enabled Jesus to be born sinless. Rather, it was the other way around. I said Mary was sinless at conception. .