God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin

[emeraldisle]

Why wouldn’t he also save his Mother?

Mary is a sinner saved by Gods grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2:8

.

 

[Gamera]

Mary is a sinner saved by Gods grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2:8

.

But the Bible doesn’t say that. No verse says, “Mary is a sinner …” so by your own standard, you’ve got nothing, since “God’s written word” remains mute on the topic. Fortunately, “God’s word” is not synonymous with “God’s written word,” the expression you keep using. 1 Thes. 2:13 tells us that the Apostle’s verbal preaching constituted “God’s word,” too. And Apostolic Tradition teaches that Mary was sinless.

 

[yellowbird]

OK, now we’re back to the obvious question. What sin has a stillborn baby committed?

Regarding the “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” This is a very good question. Baby is born, and sadly, dies within hours. What sin did that baby commit?

None.

Therefore, when the bible says “all have sinned…” it obviously doesn’t mean ALL, because that sweet baby never sinned. Obviously there are exceptions. Correct?

So why is it then such a stretch that Mary is an exception? Is it because she isn’t mentioned in the Bible? Well, neither is that sweet newborn baby.

 

[guanophore]

You need to search the Scriptures in order to know Gods Truth.
.

I agree. And that search should be guided by the same Spirit and Sacred Tradition from which they were produced. When they are searched without this, all kinds of errors result.

 

[guanophore]

God tells us in His written word that Adam and Eve were created without sin and then they disobeyed God and sinned and so the curse of death came. God tells us in His written word that sin has passed from Adam to all of humanity and that the curse of death is on all of humanity. Now I know some will say but what about Elijah and Enoch, well God tells us in His written word that He brought them up to heaven without them going through the curse of death. They would have died like all the rest of sinful humanity if God did not bring them straight up to heaven.

God does not tell in His written word that Mary was sinless but Hes does tell us in His written word that she was a human being and so she was part of sinful humanity.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

Well, one of the problems with this is that nothing unclean can enter heaven. That being the case, how did Enoch and Elijah, who were also part of “sinful humanity” qualify to be taken up into heaven?

 

[emeraldisle]

But the Bible doesn’t say that. No verse says, “Mary is a sinner …” so by your own standard, you’ve got nothing, since “God’s written word” remains mute on the topic. Fortunately, “God’s word” is not synonymous with “God’s written word,” the expression you keep using. 1 Thes. 2:13 tells us that the Apostle’s verbal preaching constituted “God’s word,” too. And Apostolic Tradition teaches that Mary was sinless.

Mary is a human being, all of humanity is sinful so Mary was a sinner.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

 

[emeraldisle]

Regarding the “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” This is a very good question. Baby is born, and sadly, dies within hours. What sin did that baby commit?

None.

Therefore, when the bible says “all have sinned…” it obviously doesn’t mean ALL, because that sweet baby never sinned. Obviously there are exceptions. Correct?

So why is it then such a stretch that Mary is an exception? Is it because she isn’t mentioned in the Bible? Well, neither is that sweet newborn baby.

Was Mary a still born baby???

.

 

[Gamera]

Mary is a human being, all of humanity is sinful so Mary was a sinner.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.

But the Bible doesn’t say that. Nor did the Apostle’s preaching, which is God’s word just like the Bible, say that. Since God’s word doesn’t say that, I have no basis for believing it (and of course, God’s word in Apostolic Tradition affirmatively says that Mary was sinless).

Do you think the “sin” referred to in Romans 5:12 is (a) original sin, (b) personal sin, or (c) both?

 

[Gamera]

Was Mary a still born baby???

.

Either a stillborn baby sinned or it didn’t. If it didn’t, then “all have sinned” doesn’t mean every individual human being. Therefore, if a stillborn baby didn’t sin, your argument falls because you’re admitting that “all” doesn’t literally mean “all.”

 

[emeraldisle]

Well, one of the problems with this is that nothing unclean can enter heaven. That being the case, how did Enoch and Elijah, who were also part of “sinful humanity” qualify to be taken up into heaven?

You want to do some fanciful speculating re Enoch and Elijah?

I just know that God tells us in His written word that He brought these two men into Heaven without them going through death.

I also know that God tells us in His written word that these two men were part of sinful humanity just like you, me and Mary are too.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.
.

 

[emeraldisle]

But the Bible doesn’t say that. Nor did the Apostle’s preaching, which is God’s word just like the Bible, say that. Since God’s word doesn’t say that, I have no basis for believing it (and of course, God’s word in Apostolic Tradition affirmatively says that Mary was sinless).

Do you think the “sin” referred to in Romans 5:12 is (a) original sin, (b) personal sin, or (c) both?

Did God inspire the Apostle Paul to write the following?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Again I ask was Mary a still born baby?

.

 

[Gamera]

Did God inspire the Apostle Paul to write the following?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Yes.

Now I have a question in return. Did God inspire the Apostles’ oral preaching? Yes or no?

Again I ask was Mary a still born baby?

.

No. Mary was not a stillborn baby,

There. Now please do me the courtesy of answering my question. Again I ask did a stillborn baby sin? Yes or no? Please do not keep dodging this question.

 

[emeraldisle]

Yes.

No. Mary was not a stillborn baby,

Then you must believe what God tells us in His written word through the Apostle Paul in Rom 5:12. Gods Truth is that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

.

 

[Gamera]

Then you must believe what God tells us in His written word through the Apostle Paul in Rom 5:12

I do. I just don’t believe it means what you think it means.

Gods Truth is that Mary is part of sinful humanity.

.

That isn’t what Romans 5:12 says. Those are your words, not God’s.

God’s truth is that Jesus saved Mary, as He saved everyone else He saves, from sin. He did it in a unique way – anticipatorily, at the moment of conception.

I did you the simple courtesy of answeing your question. Please do me the simple courtesy of answering my question: did a stillborn baby sin?

 

[VociMike]

Was Mary a still born baby???

You’re just dodging now. Your claim is that all have sinned. So I want to know what sin a stillborn baby has committed. If you cannot answer that question, then evidently all have not sinned, and thus your entire argument goes out the window.

 

[VociMike]

Did God inspire the Apostle Paul to write the following?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Again I ask was Mary a still born baby?

Doesn’t matter if Mary was a stillborn baby. The scripture you quote doesn’t say all adults have sinned. So if all have sinned then a stillborn baby must have sinned. True or false?

 

[Harmony1988]

God clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus would be born of a virgin, He didn’t tell us that Jesus would be born of a sinless virgin.

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7: 14

.

2000 years and this topic comes up quite regularly, wow. Check out this great site called Google.

Eitherways your logic is rather faulty since the word Trinity isn’t even mentioned in the Bible. Logically your argument amounts to this: “Since it’s not mentioned in the Bible then therefore it can’t be true” - which is erroneous because there are plenty of other things not mentioned in the Bible which sola scriptura adherents still ‘adhere’ to.

As for Mary’s sinlessness why not read an article on it, you found a forum, should be easier to find resources on the topic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I have a question for you, emeraldisle.

What do you think this verse says?

“All have left the right path, depraved, every one: there is not a good man left, no, not even one.”

 

[guanophore]

You want to do some fanciful speculating re Enoch and Elijah?

Actually, you have already fallen into fanciful speculating by rejecting the Apostolic Tradition. I want some doctrinal consistency. If what you are saying is true, then they could not have been taken up to heaven, because they were sinful, and nothing unclean can enter heaven. If you are going to make up new doctrine, then it has to explain all the available evidence.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Emeraldisle - you state: " Now I know some will say but what about Elijah and Enoch, well God tells us in His written word that He brought them up to heaven without them going through the curse of death. They would have died like all the rest of sinful humanity if God did not bring them straight up to heaven. "

Ummmmmmmmmmm…Your logic isn’t quite right. By the statement you have made, you have missed the point. If you think only death is the penalty for sin, why did Jesus die? He had no sin. This much we know you agree with. Yet looking at the Scriptures regarding Elijah and Enoch knowing they were assumed into Heaven, that this was witnessed and recorded for posterity in the Bible, why is it that you still don’t see that all things are possible with God and that the preservation of Mary might actually have happened?

I have another question for you - if God actually wanted everything He needed people to believe and do to be “saved” recorded in the Bible, why didn’t He just give dictation instead of all that He did? Why didn’t He just do another Mt. Sinai thing and choose someone to get the bigger Commandments as He did with Moses?

Did it ever occur to you that faith is acting on what you don’t see in your Bible? That Jesus may actually want you to do more than read a book? Somewhere in my Bible it says “…Blessed are they who don’t see yet believe.” Why can’t you have faith that just believes all things? Why do you insist on God proving everything to you personally from a book? And, by Jove if it ain’t in His book, you ain’t believin’ it!

I know you aren’t going to answer my questions because you can’t just speak your mind. You have to reiterate rote “answers” when trying to “save” us Catholics from the Truth.

Peace,

Gail