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Thing
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When?
God tells us in His written word that Jesus was born of a virgin, He didn't tell us a sinless virgin
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guanophore
Guest
It reveals an error that all of what God has revealed is found only in 'His written word", and athat is depressing.
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larry_m
Guest
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, & bring upon themselves swift destruction.” 2 Peter 2:1. This describes the heresy & blasphemy of the Marian doctrine, cult. Pope John Paul II, in the Berean Call of 4/97, his prayer to Mary,“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith & obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.” What blasphemy to ask Mary to obtain what God offers freely by His grace through Christ. In Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997, he asked all Christians “to make room for Mary in their daily lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of salvation.” HERESY!!! Mary was a sinner who was saved by grace in the same manner of any sinner who trusts Jesus for salvation. She is not the Mother of God or Ever Virgin or Queen of Heaven or Co-Redemptrix with Christ.The Apostles taught absolutely nothing about Marian worship. Men do not need Mary to bring them to Christ. “For there is one God, & one mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:5,6. “Come unto Me, all ye that labour & are heavy laden, & I will give you rest’ Matt 11:28. The Bible nowhere invites men to come to Mary or to trust in Mary or to pray to Mary. The following random quotes from the book, Ten Series of Meditations on the Mysteries of the Rosary, by John Ferraro, is intended to give an overview of Catholic dogma concerning the Virgin Mary. Ferraro’s book was given the Nihil Obstat & the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the CC that the book 'is free from doctrinal or moral error.” Therefore, we can take these quotes as official Catholic doctrine.
- Mary is co-Redemptrix of the human race.
- The church & the saints greet her thus: “You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us.”
- God has ordained that NO GRACE will be granted us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all saints that NO GRACE will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary’s hands. NO ONE will be SAVED nor OBTAIN MERCY except through You, O’heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O’Mary, our SALVATION is in your hands. (A quick note here. Notice the word You, for Mary is capitalized to denote divinity. Also, Jesus called Himself the Door. Blasphemy!!!)
- Mary is our co-Redemptrix becayse she gave us Jesus pledge if our salvation. Furthermore, she is co- Redemptrix of the human race, because with Christ she rabsomed mankind from the power of Satan.
5)Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.
6)We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. (So much for our Savior as our Righteousness. So much for our Savior as the Way, Truth & LIFE. Blasphemy!!!) - If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven-- "Who explains me (Mary) will have life everlasting.
8)It is necessary for us to have a mediator BESIDES Jesus as a mediator… - It is important to be devoted to Mary a it is to enter heaven, because no one can enter Pradise who is not devoted to Mary. (BLASPHEMY!!!)
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VociMike
Guest
In the first place, the sinlessness of Mary is recorded in the NT, in the single word “kecharitomene”. So that assertion is refuted. Now of course you will argue about what that word means, but your arguments have zero authority. There is no more reason anybody should believe your interpretation of scripture than they should believe that of the man in the moon. Furthermore, your claim that everything taught by the apostles is found in the most explicit form in the NT is another assertion without any support. Show me where in the NT it states in the most explicit form that everything taught by the apostles is found in the NT in the most explicit form. Of course you cannot show such a thing, so we have no reason to accept your assertion, and we have every reason to accept the opposite claim of the Church because she was there, and you were not.
The Catholic Church today is identical in being with the NT Church. The deposit of faith guarded and taught by both is identical. You weren’t there, so you have no business claiming otherwise.
You’re distorting scripture to advance your manmade theology. Rom 5:12 does not say that all men are born in sin. It says, in the most explicit form, that all have sinned. So what sin has a newborn baby committed?
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Thing
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What does sanctification mean?
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justasking4
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At conception.
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justasking4
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Not so. Here is what the word means: Full of grace
χαριτόω charitóō; contracted charitó̄, fut. charitó̄sō, from cháris (5485), grace. To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.
This is what the word means. Notice it says nothing about being sinless.
If i were making the meaning up then you would have a leg to stand on. However, this definition is the definition that scholars use to determine what this word means. Its not about authority but what is the truth.
Since you claim your church was there can you give me a couple of specific and explicit examples of what the apostles themselves taught about Mary being sinless not found in the NT?
No need to be there to make my point. No one can make such a claim today anyway. Rather what we can do is to compare doctrines and practices of the Catholic church with the Scriptures and see if they are the same. We know in a number of places they are not the same. The Marian doctrines for example were never taught by the apostles.
The “all who sinned” would include Mary.
Is it not true that babies are baptized because they come into the world with original sin and baptism washes that away.
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Gamera
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Romans 5:12 doesn’t say “all have sinned,” it says, “all men have sinned.” If you’re going to take “all” literally (“all means all”) then you must also take “men” literally (“men means men”). So either Romans 5:12 doesn’t apply to Mary because she isn’t a man, or else “all” doesn’t literally mean every human being.
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St_Gregory
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Sorry if much of this has already been said:
here’s my two pence…
Well firstly I’d like to comment on the fact that She was Saved through the Cross like all of us- but Christ’s Sacred Cross and its Power transcends all the Time/Space continuum which is why it is firstly at least possible for Mary to have been Saved from all sin, including Original, before ever actually have sinned because the Grace was always available to dispense, God Willing.
Now there are two absolutely crucial reasons why God chose to Grant Mary special Sanctifying Grace right from Her Existence:
Firstly Mary had Freewill like us, and She was mortal like us, and Satan wanted Her to Fall away from Grace like us: Therefore She would naturally be disobedient to God at least in some sense and level because as a human She is naturally guilty of Original Sin which causes Her to be subject to commiting personal sins. As a human she is naturally under the jurisdiction of Satan who gained power over all humans when Eve and Adam submitted themselves to him. Therefore; Mary could never Freely agree to cooperate with God’s Salvation because sin rejects Salvation and sin can never cooperate in Salvation because sin exists only for Death and Evil; and of course Satan would not let it happen and would stop it at all costs because he hates God and Life.
So we have a problem in that God respects our Freewill; sinners under Satan’s Power cannot cooperate in Salvation and God wanted to Save us in Christ Jesus our Lord. The only way God’s Plan could be fulfilled is by God preserving Mary from Sin entirely, including Original, so that Satan and Sin would have no power over Her to stop Her saying “yes” (Luk 1:38) to God and paving the way of the Saviour of the World! By being “Saved” (Luk 1:47) before being trapped by sin She was able to have Her own Freewill; cooperate in our Salvation through Her “yes” to God.
Secondly Mary was Predestined to be the Mother of Christ right from the Eternal Beginnings: In the Old Covenant Moses was commanded to create the Ark of the Covanent out of Incorruptible Wood and pure Gold – which would contain the Sacred Covenant, Written Word of God, Priestly Vestments and even God’s Presence. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, Divine WORD of God, Eternal perfect High Priest and God Incarnate. If God felt such need for to command honor due to the Ark of the Covenant and that because of its significance it should be protected from any defects at all it would only make sense to follow the same line of thinking with Mary and so protect Her from any sin and any other form of corruption. After all God does not change (Mal 3:6)!
I think these two concepts and the most important ones to consider when discussing the Immaculate Conception Doctrines.
There are other ideas though: such as Mary as the New Eve; or Mary as the Representative and Pre-eminent Christian, which we can discuss regarding the Immaculate Conception.
here’s my two pence…
Well firstly I’d like to comment on the fact that She was Saved through the Cross like all of us- but Christ’s Sacred Cross and its Power transcends all the Time/Space continuum which is why it is firstly at least possible for Mary to have been Saved from all sin, including Original, before ever actually have sinned because the Grace was always available to dispense, God Willing.
Now there are two absolutely crucial reasons why God chose to Grant Mary special Sanctifying Grace right from Her Existence:
Firstly Mary had Freewill like us, and She was mortal like us, and Satan wanted Her to Fall away from Grace like us: Therefore She would naturally be disobedient to God at least in some sense and level because as a human She is naturally guilty of Original Sin which causes Her to be subject to commiting personal sins. As a human she is naturally under the jurisdiction of Satan who gained power over all humans when Eve and Adam submitted themselves to him. Therefore; Mary could never Freely agree to cooperate with God’s Salvation because sin rejects Salvation and sin can never cooperate in Salvation because sin exists only for Death and Evil; and of course Satan would not let it happen and would stop it at all costs because he hates God and Life.
So we have a problem in that God respects our Freewill; sinners under Satan’s Power cannot cooperate in Salvation and God wanted to Save us in Christ Jesus our Lord. The only way God’s Plan could be fulfilled is by God preserving Mary from Sin entirely, including Original, so that Satan and Sin would have no power over Her to stop Her saying “yes” (Luk 1:38) to God and paving the way of the Saviour of the World! By being “Saved” (Luk 1:47) before being trapped by sin She was able to have Her own Freewill; cooperate in our Salvation through Her “yes” to God.
Secondly Mary was Predestined to be the Mother of Christ right from the Eternal Beginnings: In the Old Covenant Moses was commanded to create the Ark of the Covanent out of Incorruptible Wood and pure Gold – which would contain the Sacred Covenant, Written Word of God, Priestly Vestments and even God’s Presence. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, Divine WORD of God, Eternal perfect High Priest and God Incarnate. If God felt such need for to command honor due to the Ark of the Covenant and that because of its significance it should be protected from any defects at all it would only make sense to follow the same line of thinking with Mary and so protect Her from any sin and any other form of corruption. After all God does not change (Mal 3:6)!
I think these two concepts and the most important ones to consider when discussing the Immaculate Conception Doctrines.
There are other ideas though: such as Mary as the New Eve; or Mary as the Representative and Pre-eminent Christian, which we can discuss regarding the Immaculate Conception.
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VociMike
Guest
You are quite simply wrong about the word, and in particular the word tense, all of your un-named “scholars” notwithstanding. Here is one quick refutation I found:
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp
Yes, they taught that Mary was sinless. What more do you want?
You keep making the same unsupported claim over and over. How do you know what was taught by the apostles? Were you there? The Church was there.
Then it must also include newborn babies. What sins have newborn babies committed?
You don’t understand original sin. Your phrase “with original sin” is so vague as to be meaningless. If all have sinned, what sin has a newborn baby committed? Have newborn babies committed original sin?
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adstrinity
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Pretty sure this answers my question. Thank you.
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emeraldisle
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Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
God tells us in Rom 5:12 that death passed upon all men so are you trying to suggest that women don’t die??
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Mannyfit75
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God tells us in Rom 5:12 that death passed upon all men so are you trying to suggest that women don’t die??
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All have sinned does not necessary means all sin. If it did, then Jesus would be included in that.
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emeraldisle
Guest
Do I believe that Mary is part of sinful humanity. Yes
So yes Jesus’ mother was a sinner and isn’t wonderful that Jesus came into this world to save sinners like his mother.
There is fanciful speculation that Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the sinless Lord Jesus.
So we need more fanciful speculation to say that Mary’s mom and dad needed to be sinless to give birth to the supposedly sinless Mary??
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JMJ_coder
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No, just trying to show you the logical errors of your assertions.
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Mannyfit75
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I just realized how erroneous and illogical her logic is.
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guanophore
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ja4, Catholic theology does not come from scripture. On the contrary scripture reflects Catholic theology. The Teaching of Jesus, from whence all Catholicism comes, was delivered whole and entire to the Apostles before a word of the NT was ever written.
The understanding that Jesus took his human flesh from Mary is what combatted the Arian and Gnostic heresies in the early centuries of the Church. These understandings of Mary are derived from what we know about Christ, which comes down to us from the Apostles.
The fact that you cannot “find evidence” of it in the Scripture changes nothing.
One wonders, however, why does it bother you so much? How come you can’t just let it go? If you want to believe that Mary was corrupted by sin, you are free to do so! Why do you have such a hard time tolerating that other people believe differently?
To the extent that the fathers reflect the inspired and inerrant teachings of the Apostles that also formed the scriptures, they are reflecting the infallible Sacred Tradition of the Church. The fathers also contain writings that do not necessarily reflect the Sacred Tradition.
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emeraldisle
Guest
God is His perfect wisdom knew that when He told us in His written word that all have sinned that some people would try to use this to argue that Jesus was sinful. So He clearly tells us in His written word that Jesus is sinless.
For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Peter 2:21-22
So God didn’t tell us that Mary was sinless because she wasn’t but He does tell us that Jesus was sinless because He was.
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guanophore
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This is not necessary. We know there are exceptions, and we know who they are.
No. It is not any more obvious than stillborn babies are included, or disabled persons.
There is no need for this either. What we are trying to show you is that your interpretation is wrong, not that God’s word is wrong.
I agree, this is stupid. It clearly demonstrates that you cannot understand what we are trying to communicate to you.
We are bringing up the exceptions to “all” such as stillborn babies, to show you that there are exceptions. It does not “prove” that Mary is sinless. It proves that your premise and interpretation is flawed.
What is your goal here, emerald? Surely you realize by now that we are not going to abandon the Apostolic Teaching so that we can embrace your flawed interpretation of one scripture verse. What do you hope to accomplish?
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sodak
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This is a Catholic forum. It’s not arbitrary or uninformed. Read the forum rules.
See post 145…
Who ever said that it had to be in Scripture? Ask the authors.
Absolutely 100% false.
By that argument, I don’t owe any taxes this year because the Scriptures don’t say that I do.
This is a Catholic forum. Accusing us of blasephemy will get you shown the door in short order.
So what?
You don’t understand Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. They only mean that the book doesn’t contradict doctrine, not that the book defines it. These 2 seals could have also been given to Einstein’s theory of relativity, but it doesn’t mean that would be Church doctrine.
There you go again with your “fanciful speculation”. You are dead wrong. Your arrogance in not accepting the Church’s teaching is on your shoulders alone.
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