God wrote the Bible not the Catholic Church

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arcadia said:
Mathew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son: and he called his name JESUS.

The references of Jesus’ brothers and sister are:
Mathew 13 : 55-56
Mathew 12 : 46
Mark 6:3

arcadia
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And you are assuming that ‘knew’ meant had conjugal relations?

Joseph, because he was a righteous and faithful and obedient servant of God, obeyed the angel without needing to understand why the angel was asking him to do such a risky and puzzling thing as to marry a pregnant maid.

However, in the Real Presence of the newborn Jesus, Joseph understood why. Joseph recognized Mary for who she was: immaculately conceived and the Mother of God.

The term brother at that time and place in history did not mean only blood sibling. It meant all sorts of things. It could mean cousin. It could mean neighbour. It could mean member of the same extended family. It could mean member of the same community.

Joseph was the guardian of Mary and had to be ‘married’ to her in order to respect the laws of his community. (Render unto Caesar) But Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Mary had one child: Jesus.
 
Ani Ibi][I]Your response is unclear. Do you believe that [I]logos[/I][/I] is Jesus? Or do you believe that [I]logos[/I] is Scripture? Which is it please? Thank you. [/quote] [QUOTE="Robert902 said:
Logos is an appropriate designation of Christ, since all the treasures of the divine wisdom are embodied in Him (Col. 2:2,3). Logos is a Greek word which means “a thought” or “the expression or utterance of a thought.”
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Please answer the questions. Do you believe that logos is Jesus? Or do you believe that logos is Scripture? Which is it please? The questions require yes or no answers. Thank you.
 
arcadia said:
How about the fact that Catholics believe that Mary died still a virgin???

Jesus had natural half brothers and sisters. She knew no man till after the birth of Jesus. Then she had sex with husband Joseph. They had children.

Or did she divorce him? or maybe just refuse him? No they had married sexual relations. You asked for a teaching that is not grounded on scripture, well here it is. This Catholic teaching of ever-vigin Mary is not grounded on scripture.

“Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary and his brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?” See Mark 6:3, Mathew 12:46. Mary had other children with Joseph.

Father arcadia
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Matthew 1:25" He was not knowing her until…" ouk eginosken aften heos" Note the imperfect tense, continuous or linear action, “he was not knowing” or “he kept on not knowing.”
St.John Chrysostom: He uses herein the word until, not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did come to know her, but in order that thou mayest learn that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched. But on what account did he say the word ‘until’?
Because it is usual in Scripture ofttimes to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times… When discoursing also of God, Scripture says, " From the age until the age Thou art God[ps.89(90):2],’ to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference." Hom.5, commentary on St Matthew the Evangelist.]
 
Sixtus said:
Everybody knows that God gave us the bible. It was given by God as a whole book from Genesis to Revelation. Everyting we need for life is in the bible. Protestants are right.we do not need a church of any kind.All we need is the Bible.

The Lord’s public ministry was not necessary, He could have done it in private. We have His word in the bible handed down to us from God. God gave us the bible. The Catholic Church put books into it that God did not pen. Protestants took them out again!

We do not need the Catholic Church as we are free to interpret it as we want. That is why athiests interpret it different to SDA which is different to JW’s which is different to Moslems, which is different to mainstream Protestants which is different to Catholic and Orthodox.

It can be interpreted however you want. My agnostic friends interpret it and they dont even believe in it.

So we did not need a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church the pope and His Apostles were actually not necessary.

Catholics are idolatrous because they worship the Father Son and Holy Spirit, Mary and the saints. You should worship only one God and the Bible.
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one when you moslems supposed to be people who follow islam or are they some christian denominations.

two at the end you said we should worship god and the bible you want us to worship a book, even though it was given to us from good it does not mean you worship it, do we worship trees god gave us those too
 
arcadia, please answer my post about Mary being Ever Virgin, or are you afraid to?
 
obadiah said:
arcadia, please answer my post about Mary being Ever Virgin, or are you afraid to?
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It does leave me to make the inference. And that is what I am inferring. Also the scriputures about the siblings of Jesus back up this inference.

arcadia

PS I respect Mary.
 
arcadia said:
It does leave me to make the inference. And that is what I am inferring. Also the scriputures about the siblings of Jesus back up this inference.
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Have you looked up the names of their fathers, yet? (HINT: none of them were fathered by Joseph.)
 
If what you say is true, why does every ancient Christian Church without exception proclaim the perpetual virginity of the Holy Mother of God and ever virgin Mary?
 
jmcrae said:
There were lots of other people who were upset by how things were going in the Catholic Church. They followed proper channels, and today, we remember them as Saints. There was no good reason why Luther could not have done the same thing, other than his pride getting in the way.

Why? He was, after all, raised in the Catholic Church, there being no other alternatives in Western Europe until he himself came along and founded Protestantism (which instantaneously exploded into Lutheranism, Mennonism, and Calvinism).
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Which are the proper channels that he did not fallow? I am not saying that luther was perfect. Perhaps he could be proud at times. Other times he was very humble. Sometimes he was very fearful othertimes very brave. Some of the posters in this forum seem proud to me too. It happens. Perhaps he has some regrets. Perhaps not. I know I do.

I do not worship Luther nor do I hate him as I was taught to by my mother. He is a person from human history that bears study.

arcadia
 
Sixtus said:
Everybody knows that God gave us the bible. It was given by God as a whole book from Genesis to Revelation. Everyting we need for life is in the bible. Protestants are right.we do not need a church of any kind.All we need is the Bible.

The Lord’s public ministry was not necessary, He could have done it in private. We have His word in the bible handed down to us from God. God gave us the bible. The Catholic Church put books into it that God did not pen. Protestants took them out again!

We do not need the Catholic Church as we are free to interpret it as we want. That is why athiests interpret it different to SDA which is different to JW’s which is different to Moslems, which is different to mainstream Protestants which is different to Catholic and Orthodox.

It can be interpreted however you want. My agnostic friends interpret it and they dont even believe in it.

So we did not need a Catholic Church. The Catholic Church the pope and His Apostles were actually not necessary.

Catholics are idolatrous because they worship the Father Son and Holy Spirit, Mary and the saints. You should worship only one God and the Bible.
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For the very reason that it can be misinterpreted by the masses…this is why God gave the authority to the Church. Peter was our Church’s foundation…and the people thereafter. Jesus’ conversation with Peter manifests itself in the very nature of the RCC.

If you say that the Apostles were not necessary…why did Jesus select them?
 
wanner47 said:
Martin Luther, by the way, firmly believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

As to the “proof” you posted above, those instances have, I believe, already been explained in this thread.
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I am sure he did. What is your point.
arcadia
 
arcadia said:
Which are the proper channels that he did not follow?
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He disobeyed his superiors at every turn. When they told him to keep quiet and work things out patiently, he shouted in the streets and published long vicious rants. When they asked him to come and present his viewpoint, he ran off into the mountains and sulked. When they wouldn’t do things his way, he started up his own Church. When he was invited by the Pope to attend the Council of Trent, he never showed up. They delayed the sessions he was interested in several times, in order to provide him with opportunities to present his viewpoint in the proper manner, but he never came.

He did not make use of the opportunities he was given; he chose instead to incite his followers to burn down half of Europe, and to publish tracts saying that the Pope (who was at that time very patiently waiting for him to show up at Trent, even delaying certain sessions so that he could have a chance to come and speak at them) was the Anti-Christ.

What more were they supposed to do for him?
 
jmcrae said:
He disobeyed his superiors at every turn. When they told him to keep quiet and work things out patiently, he shouted in the streets and published long vicious rants. When they asked him to come and present his viewpoint, he ran off into the mountains and sulked. When they wouldn’t do things his way, he started up his own Church. When he was invited by the Pope to attend the Council of Trent, he never showed up. They delayed the sessions he was interested in several times, in order to provide him with opportunities to present his viewpoint in the proper manner, but he never came.

He did not make use of the opportunities he was given; he chose instead to incite his followers to burn down half of Europe, and to publish tracts saying that the Pope (who was at that time very patiently waiting for him to show up at Trent, even delaying certain sessions so that he could have a chance to come and speak at them) was the Anti-Christ.

What more were they supposed to do for him?
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Where do you get this information?

arcadia
 
arcadia said:
Where do you get this information?

arcadia
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The records of The Council of Trent are online. The writings of the Saints of the Counter-Reformation make frequent reference to the burning of Europe by the Lutherans. St. Teresa’s The Way of Perfection was actually a response to the Lutheran attack on the town of Avila.

There are also several histories of Luther - just do a Google search. There was a documentary on Discovery Civilization not too long ago that really highlighted his rebelliousness against all authority. The thesis of the documentary was that he was the world’s first modern individualist.
 
arcadia said:
OK, then what does grounded on mean then?

arcadia
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Arcadia,

The doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is grounded in Old Testament typology.

Look at the similarities between Mary (the dwelling place for God in the New Testament) and the Ark of the Covenant (the dwelling place for God in the Old Testament). No one could touch the Ark in the Old Testament and similarly Mary remained “untouched” (a virgin). This teaching can be found in the writings of the early Church Fathers.

You should read this article which explains these similarities from a Biblical perspective:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

Remember, the Marian doctrines are important because of what they reveal about Christ. He is God. If He weren’t God, we wouldn’t be comparing Mary to the Ark of the Covenant.
 
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