Godless morality?

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Thomas, according to the story, presumably wasn’t an atheist when he died precisely because he had been offered tangible, indubitable evidence of the existence of the supernatural nature of the divine, in the person of Jesus.
We also see what happened when other people were offered “tangible, indubitable evidence of the existence of the supernatural nature of the divine, in the person of Jesus”.

Some believed. Some didn’t.

So it’s pretty reasonable to conclude that even if some today were given tangible, indubitable evidence of the existence of the supernatural nature of the divine, they wouldn’t believe.
 
It doesn’t matter if he’s an atheist or someone with a religion. It’s a simple Q and A session.

Me: Do you prefer to live with pain or without it?
Cat Torturer: Without.
Me: If I caused you pain for no reason at all, would that be acceptable to you?
CT: No.
Me: Would you find it acceptable if I told you I got pleasure from it?
CT: No.
Me: So would you class it as being wrong?
CT: Yes.
Me: So causing pain to someone for pleasure is wrong?
CT: Yes.
Me: Do cats feel pain?
CT: Yes.
Me: Do you think they enjoy it?
CT: No.
Me: So do you think it’s a good thing to cause it?
CT: No.

So CT knows it’s wrong. If he actually goes on to torture a cat because he gets pleasure from it, he still knows it’s wrong. He and I are in agreement. The fact that he has some personality problems that allows him to do something that he knows is wrong is another problem.
And CT simply says,

I don’t view a cat as “someone”. It’s an it.

And as such, giving an “it” torture gives me pleasure.

And pleasure is good. Therefore, it is moral, and even good, to torture a cat.

In fact, I think my pleasure is the highest good.

Now, with your atheistic paradigm you must simply say, “Your morality is your own. You view your pleasure as the highest good. I view something else as the highest good. But really, since there is no objective “highest good”, there’s nothing I can say to refute your position. I must allow you to torture cats.”

:eek:
 
Now, with your atheistic paradigm you must simply say, "Your morality is your own. You view your pleasure as the highest good. I view something else as the highest good. But really, since there is no objective “highest good”, there’s nothing I can say to refute your position. I must allow you to torture cats.
Let’s say I gave you a list of creatures from one of end of the ‘sentient spectrum’ - say a great ape, to the other, say a bacterium.

I’ll make the assumption that you would object to torturing an ape for fun, as would I and any other reasonable person. You feel that there’s a ‘highest good’ which dictates that. I’ll also make the assumption that you’ feel that torturing a bacterium is a nonsensical concept, as do I, as would any reasonable person.

Somewhere along that list of creatures everyone, including yourself, would make a decision that torturing anything on the list from here on up is perhaps not a good thing, whereas anything on the list down is meaningless.

I would decide that particular point based on reason. Does a particular creature feel pain? Would it feel discomfort in a way that we would recognise. Would it try to avoid that pain if it couldl. I’d bet that you would make the decision also based on very similar reasons.

Where does this ‘higherst good’ come into the decision? Unless you personally decide that yourself. Which is, in effect, what I am doing. The catechism may provide guidance for you, such as telling you not to cause unnecessary suffering, but what that entails is not specified. You personally have to make that decision as ‘a reasonable person’.

Not causing unnecessary suffering could be considered one of the axioms of a reasonable morality. Simply go back to the Q and A and the it can be developed from first principles by any reasonable person. If the first question is:

Is it acceptable for someone to cause you unnecessary suffering?

…and the answer is ‘No’, then it would be an unreasonable person who would then say it would be acceptable for him to cause it to another person.

If you then move on to animals, then there is a personal decision that all reasonable people have to make as to what constitutes unnecessary suffering. Someone may say that dragging a fish through water by a hook embedded in its mouth is acceptable. Maybe you go fishing and think it’s ok. So it’s open to Discussion between reasonable people.

Someone may say that animals don’t feel pain the way that we do. Descartes thought that and he was intelligent man. So they may say that torturing a cat is no worse than swatting a fly. So it’s open to discussion again. You and I and almost everyone else would say it was wrong and feel so strongly about it that we legislate against it happening. Because we’re reasonable people.

That’s the way the world goes round…
 
Incidentally, the point at which someone makes that personal decision as to whether something is acceptable varies from place to place and from time to time.

In the Middle Ages, burning cats as a form of entertainment was quite the thing. kattenstoet.be/en/page/497-510/cat-torturing-in-the-middle-ages.html. If you wander around any market in S. E Asia, then you need to be equipped with a strong stomache.

If you had been born in another time or another place, PR, then your definition of the ‘highest good’ would be different. It’s even different between contemporary Catholics (fishing is ok, hunting is not; eating animals is ok, battery farming is not). Your ‘highest good’ is actually ‘your’ highest good.
 
belorg

Yes, of course I know what I am denying. But I have several proofs, depending on the kind of God.

I’m not trying to be evasive, but I think we are about to hi-jack the theme of this thread.

If you want to discuss this further, start another thread and let me know the title. Thanks. 😃
I agree with you it’s not a good idea to hi-jack this thread and a thread on this would be a thread on atheism, which is still forbidden.
 
I would decide that particular point based on reason. Does a particular creature feel pain? Would it feel discomfort in a way that we would recognise. Would it try to avoid that pain if it couldl. I’d bet that you would make the decision also based on very similar reasons.
You would lose that bet, my friend. As PR said, the cat is an “it”. Meaning that the cat does not have an “immortal soul”. And God gave dominion over the beasts of the land. Therefore we, “the crowns of creation” can do whatever we feel like doing - after all the cats have no “immortal soul”, they may “act” as if they were in pain, but it does not “prove” that they actually feel pain.

Is there a prohibition in the bible against torturing animals? No. Is there a commandment against it? No. Is it part of seven “deadly sins”? Of course not. After all those simple and ignorant people who authored the “scriptures” had no idea about nervous systems. We look at those beings, which have a nervous system, and recognize that their reaction is exactly the same as ours. And using the fully secular concept of “reciprocity”, we declare that torturing for fun (even cats) is not acceptable, because the cats DO feel pain, just like we do.

Now the funny thing would happen if some very advanced space aliens would come to the Earth, and would declare that ordinary humams are simply “it”, since in their mythology anything that has an IQ less than 300 is simply an “it”, not a person, and as such it is fair game for torture… I wonder if PR would feel “cheated” to be considered an “it”. Now, I would BET, that she would…
 
Actually, what you’re really getting at is that the universe is not emotional - it’s purely, coldly rational, all cause-and-effect interspersed with random occurrences. It doesn’t care, doesn’t have any interest in us or our feelings.

It doesn’t make sense to be grateful to the universe because it’s not, in its totality, a subjective being (at least we have no indication that it is so). God was invented to give people an object of gratitude that might care when we thanked it for good weather or good hunting or being able to find water during a drought.
With equal facility and greater cogency it can be said that God is rejected to give people an excuse for not caring about anyone but themselves and their entourage!
There’s nothing wrong with just feeling a sense of gratitude in general. It’s an emotion inclined to make us feel happy, generous and personable towards those around us. Nothing wrong with that, and it can have far-reaching benefits. Why should we care that such gratitude doesn’t have a particular, personal object to whom we must be grateful, on pain of displeasure on the part of said object?
There’s nothing wrong with feeling a sense of gratitude but it doesn’t make sense to attribute the immense value and beauty of life to a universe which is “purely, coldly rational, all cause-and-effect interspersed with random occurrences.”
And the entire universe doesn’t have to be rational in order for morality to make sense. It makes sense in the context of subjective interaction, which is where and how it evolved in the first place.
It is a conjuring trick to obtain** rational **beings from an irrational universe. Subjective interaction presupposes a fundamental difference between subjects and objects, i.e. persons and things.
 
With equal facility and greater cogency it can be said that God is rejected to give people an excuse for not caring about anyone but themselves and their entourage!
It seems facile to suggest that over 2 billion people use their non-belief in God as some sort of excuse for selfish ends. Do you have any suggestions for how they manage to get on with each other?
 
Someone may say that animals don’t feel pain the way that we do. Descartes thought that and he was intelligent man. So they may say that torturing a cat is no worse than swatting a fly. So it’s open to discussion again. You and I and almost everyone else would say it was wrong and feel so strongly about it that we legislate against it happening. Because we’re reasonable people.

That’s the way the world goes round…
Isn’t the point that religious people are making is that without the higher authority of God that morality must become a relative thing? You can take any two people, whether they be religious or not, and even though they might both have an I.Q. of 500, they might arrive at different conclusions concerning what is moral. It doesn’t even matter by what means they arrived at their conclusions. It’s beside the point. Even if another man comes along with an I.Q. of 1500 and says one is correct, it doesn’t really matter. They are all just men and the matter of who has the high authority can also be contested. All this discussion comes down to, in my opinion, is that Catholics believe that God is the final authority and that his moral law is the truth about what is actually and truly moral. Any deviance from his teachings is an error, and it doesn’t matter if you are a common criminal or the Pope.
 
Bradski

It seems facile to suggest that over 2 billion people use their non-belief in God as some sort of excuse for selfish ends. Do you have any suggestions for how they manage to get on with each other?

They do get on with each other, more so out of fear and necessity than out of love.

As for example in North Korea, where religion is merely the worship of a supreme lawgiver.

But guess what, he ain’t Zeus with thunderbolts even if he thinks he is.
 
Atheism is just a shorter way of saying that there is not a final moral authority. The universe does not define any moral laws. Its laws only concern the physical world. What does an atheist point to as the highest guiding principle? As far as I can tell it is logic, but logical thinking is a choice. There are some people who believe that chaos and anarchy are good. An appeal to logic and reason will fail with them and without a final authority, who can determine what is ultimately the truth? Atheism cannot provide that answer. The removal of a final and indisputable authority is the final end of atheism. There is no way around it because that is the conclusion and destination of atheism.
 
Even love fails to offer an absolute moral code to human beings. Human beings love different things and can vary wildly from person to person. Also, no person can say with absolute authority that love is the highest ideal. Without a final authority, a person could easily define hatred as the highest authority. On what basis can he be disputed and with what reasoning? To what authority can an appeal be made against a person who holds hatred and chaos as his guiding light? With atheism, it is impossible. Atheism does not provide anything or anyone as most high.
 
The idea of an absolute moral code to which all human beings should be held is just an idea. Catholics believe that this is an idea that originates with God. In atheism, the whole concept of an absolute code of morality can be nothing more than an idea that originates with human beings. Atheism does not insist that there is a final authority which dictates it must be this way. Under atheism, there is no reason why the world, with all of its varying and conflicting forms of morality, is not perfect just the way that it is.
 
Even the concepts of Atheism are contestable. Earlier in this thread, the point was made by an atheist that the form of her beliefs were different from another (former) atheist’s. Atheism itself, it not held to any particular doctrines of belief. An atheist can even exist in a contradiction by thanking God for every meal. There is no one that can say it is absolutely wrong. The best they can do is suggest that it is illogical.
 
The problem with atheistic morality is that there isn’t any such thing as atheistic morality. Atheism says nothing about morality. All it says is that there is no God. So every atheist by his own monotonous creed can make up any morality as he goes along.

Case closed. 😃
 
The problem with atheistic morality is that there isn’t any such thing as atheistic morality. Atheism says nothing about morality. All it says is that there is no God. So every atheist by his own monotonous creed can make up any morality as he goes along.

Case closed. 😃
Of course he can. the question is: would it be in his best interest to do so?
And what about the literally thousands of difefrent theistic moralities? Seems there isn’t any such thing as theistic morality either.
 
belorg

**Of course he can. the question is: would it be in his best interest to do so?
And what about the literally thousands of difefrent theistic moralities? Seems there isn’t any such thing as theistic morality either. **

Every theism claims a specific morality endowed by God. Atheism neither claims a specific morality nor a morality endowed and to which all men must submit.
 
It seems facile to suggest that over 2 billion people use their non-belief in God as some sort of excuse for selfish ends. Do you have any suggestions for how they manage to get on with each other?
You are distorting my statement - which was a response to:
God was invented to give people an object of gratitude that might care when we thanked it for good weather or good hunting or being able to find water during a drought.
My precise words were:
With equal facility and greater cogency **it can be said **that God is rejected to give people an excuse for not caring about anyone but themselves and their entourage!
From which you make the illogical deduction that I have claimed:
.over 2 billion people use their non-belief in God as some sort of excuse for selfish ends.
! (my emphasis)

Please ensure that in future you do not misrepresent the arguments of those with whom you disagree…
 
Does this mean carniverous animals are immoral?

In the atheist world, “pain” is just electrical signals that get converted to certain muscular reactions. How can there be a moral component to electrical signals or muscular reactions?
But if “pain” is just electrical signals that get converted to muscular reactions, does that mean I get to not feel it? 😉

I think casting it in those terms is very theoretical, and is not the be-all-and-end-all of talking about values.

It’s from the realm of direct experience that one can speak intelligibly about values, I think. Namely, believer and non-believer alike would generally prefer – health to painful disease; emotional companionship to complete social ostracism; life to death.

Why do they prefer it? I submit that is as utterly uninteresting a question – from the realm of experience – as why I see in colors, hear sounds, or have a sense of taste. It is that rock solid – predictable and universal (exceptions would be comparable to those who are blind – existent, but in the minority).

One doesn’t torture animals if one is not sadistic or lacking in empathy. And, to put it simply – if human beings were completely sadistic and lacking in empathy, the world would look very different (in spite of its problems) than it does today. In other words, there would be no cooperation, no protection of the weak by the strong; the human race, in fact, would probably be extinct, for why should a parent bother to care about its child, or to care about anything that is not itself?

Even ants cooperate, and if the human being were a completely isolated unit – incapable and uninterested in cooperation, empathy, and fellow-feeling – we would not be having this discussion on this complex device of highly evolved electronics (the result of the collaboration of thousands of individuals, over essentially hundreds of years); and, as mentioned, there probably wouldn’t be a species homo sapiens, because no defenseless child would have had the opportunity to survive into adulthood.

It is true, I am not describing morality in a metaphysical sense, but fundamental human values – nothing less than the means by which the human race has survived (i.e., has prevented itself from devouring itself). As to the question why live I, again, believe it is questioning something so fundamental in the human breast as, “why see in colors? Why not in black and white? Why hear sounds?”

Animals can’t defend themselves against human cruelty, whereas other humans can; regarding our fellow humans, part of the reason why we tapped into our empathetic natures is that, when we hurt others, either they – or those who cared about them – tried to hurt us back, or to hurt those that we care about. In other words, a perpetual state of war.

But because we’ve developed empathy – as a matter of survival, frankly, both individual and collective – most also have empathy for other living creatures. They’ve benefitted from stuff that the human race has “figured out” over an untold thousands of years, not least of all because our relationship to animals – subconsciously, at least – is not dissimilar to our relation to newborn babies (the question of the unborn is a battle of perception; if the unborn were perceived with the same consideration as newborn babies, the problem would be largely solved).

Of course, it has limits – not much empathy in our poultry or beef industry, in the U.S. Few believe that animal life is as compellingly worthy of empathy as human life. This is not merely an idealistic recognition of the inherent dignity of the human being, and of its unique qualities; it is part of the more mundane self-love and self-regard of the human species, that does not love other species as much as it loves itself. Humans first.
 
belorg

**Of course he can. the question is: would it be in his best interest to do so?
And what about the literally thousands of difefrent theistic moralities? Seems there isn’t any such thing as theistic morality either. **

Every theism claims a specific morality endowed by God. Atheism neither claims a specific morality nor a morality endowed and to which all men must submit.
Yes, every brand of theism cliams their particular morality is endowed by their particular God, and since those moralities very often are contradictory, most of them are wrong. The only way to decide who is right and who is wrong is by applying reason. But if we can apply reason to discern between what’s moral and waht isn’t, then God is redundant.
And if we can’t use reason, there is no telling who is right and who is wrong and we end up with total chaos.
 
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