Godless morality?

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There could technically be a creator of the universe that had absolutely no sense of morality, with morality still being a human construct that we have “projected” onto the divine being – who may, for all we know, exist “beyond good and evil.”
A technical possibility is an unsound basis for a conclusion - particularly when it is inconsistent with the immense value of life.
Yet, metaphysically speaking, I have absolutely no rational reason to say that “money has value” – that is a false proposition, in the ultimate sense. The same with morality.
This conclusion is also inconsistent with the fact that every reasonable person acts as if good and evil are objectively real and not mere conventions.

To deny that the truth is valuable is to commit intellectual suicide!

“By their fruits you shall know them…”
 
I don’t know if Christians would attribute objective value to money. The existence of objective morality does not necessarily instill every object with objective value. How you use that money might become a moral issue, but then the issue pertains to action, not object.

People who want to use money, regardless of creed, are forced to value it at the rate at which it can be spent. I don’t think that this is equivalent to moral valuation. Moral valuation would relate more to the question of how much energy and time one should invest in earning money and how that money should be used.
👍 An important distinction that is often overlooked in our materialistic society.
 
None of which make purpose, meaning, and values objectively real - as you have pointed out.
Right, that’s what I’m saying. I’m not trying to argue in existence of objective morality. Only that morality can and does have a subjective basis.
The concept of God has a rational basis which corresponds to the universal moral and legal principles of liberty, equality, fraternity and individual responsibility.
I find it interesting that you bring up “legal principle” as an example of objective truth here as it is necessarily a social (subjective) construct
Sartre
 
I don’t think the debate here is whether we have an objective purpose but rather whether morality can be rationally believed in without believing in God. My argument is that if you believe in God, you may believe in morality and purpose, because those things become absolute through belief in God (as a faith-based assumption you make about the nature of reality, regardless of whether it is really true).

I disagree that the only purpose that matters is what we create for ourselves. There are problems with this statement. Purpose is something that I should do. Without a God, there is nothing in the universe that prescribes one course of action for me over another. I might not be hurtful or mean to others because my psychology works out in a way that being mean makes me feel bad. That is not tantamount to purpose. Drives and psychological tendencies do not a purposeful being make.

I’ll continue my issues with subjective morality here. The other problem is one of cognition. The example of the dog, I think, is irrelevant because its drives are much more “animal” and responsive than ours. I would again claim that a dog’s response to stimuli and its drives can’t be argued to form a purpose.

You are essentially allowing the fact that we have “conscious interpretation of experience” to be a basis for morality. I think you will have to explain more how, from that premise, we can arrive at morality, and why that morality would actually prescribe what I should do as a human.
It’s not very complicated to create morality from psychological, sociological, and physiological experiences. Obvious factors here include ideas of desire, rewards/punishments, empathy, reciprocity, conditioning, socialization, etc. These are very basic building blocks to developing individual and shared morality. Empathy in itself is a stepping stone away from the Golden Rule.

That this type of morality is not objective, I think, is your main concern here. Yet right/wrong varies greatly across individuals and groups of people. Even within individuals right/wrong may fluctuate dependent on context including emotional state, cognitive development, etc.

Further, if objective morality exists (or matters) then why are there moral dilemmas? Absolute moral truths should yield obvious and universal answers. That this is not the case points to, again, the existence and persistence of subjective morality.
Furthermore, there is no truth “to [insert person].” That is what we call an illusion. In any other form of knowledge this type of thinking is anathema and here it arises out of a cultured aversion to telling someone that they are wrong about morality.
You can call it illusion, I see it as a natural phenomenon of consciousness and perception. What is true to you is not necessarily true to me. Subjective truth, purpose and morality right here.
My argument is that there are two possibilities: God exists and God does not exist. In one case we can easily deduce that there are moral consequences to our actions and we should act in a certain way. In the other case we must deduce that there are not moral consequences to our actions. While we may imagine that responding to psychological, social motivations constitutes “purpose,” once we are aware of the necessary conclusion that is drawn from our premise (that everything is random and uncreated), then we lose every rational basis for morality and purpose.
Okay so:
God exists, therefore objective moral truths.
And god does not exist, therefore no moral truths.

But what about:
God exists, therefore no objective moral truths.
And god does not exist, therefore objective moral truths.

That is, if god exists, what makes her/his/its morality objective? Did god randomly ascribe certain actions as right/wrong? If so, what makes this any more valid than my own subjective views on morality? It really just becomes another form of subjective truth, god’s and mine.

Further, if god ascribed actions as right/wrong based on moral truths that are necessarily naturally true, well, what purpose does god have in this equation?
 
God’s morality is objective because God is the Moral Lawgiver.
You did not address the rest wherein I bring up the Euthyphro dilemma.

“Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?”
 
Further, if objective morality exists (or matters) then why are there moral dilemmas? Absolute moral truths should yield obvious and universal answers. That this is not the case points to, again, the existence and persistence of subjective morality.
Moral dilemmas exist because our reasoning is impaired.

“With the light of reason human beings can know which path to take, but they can follow that path to its end, quickly and unhindered, only if with a rightly tuned spirit they search for it within the horizon of faith”–Fides et Ratio

The natural limitation of reason and the inconstancy of the heart often obscure and distort a person’s search.

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
 
That is a good point. If the universe was created, humans could still be incident, in which case there would not be intrinsic “human dignity.”
Those are interesting possibilities, indeed – 1. that a Creator exists, but that there is no such thing as “morality” (no norms of conduct, those being human inventions; perhaps that Creator is more in tune with the “way of nature”); or 2. a Creator exists and a morality exists, but that morality is – from our own human standards – immoral (this is not an idle question in Catholicism, part of the paradox of the Book of Job; in this vein, Blake writes, “The roaring of lions, the howling of wolves, the raging of the stormy sea, and the destructive sword, are portions of eternity too great for the eye of man”).

Another intriguing possibility is that a Creator God exists but, alas, we are not immortal (with our lives on earth being a gift – the partaking in consciousness, the privilege of contemplating all of creation, yet a privilege that must be yielded to those that come after us).

Then you really do get in the mindset, paradoxical to our usual way of thinking of it, that human life is both temporary and intrinsically precious and meaningful. God is eternal, humans are temporal, but who are we to complain for having been allotted a portion of eternity? Every moment would be precious, because it is a gift from God.
 
If anyone is behaving morally, they do so by the power of God, whether they are believers or unbelievers. But their moral behavior is meritorious only if they are living in the state of grace. And oddly, even an Atheist may be in the state of grace and not know it, but only if he has not deliberately rejected the One True God knowingly. Linus2nd
 
No I do agree. I could well imagine myself helping him iterally cutting and pasting the parts of the bible that he thought were worthy. Like me, he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but thought that a lot of what was reported as being said by Him was morally sound.

“Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.”
Judging by jefferson’s other comments on religion and morality,. it seems that he believed that out institution “presuppose the existence of a supreme being,” as Justice Douglas once put it. That “supreme being” would seem to have been the God of Jesus.
 
Judging by jefferson’s other comments on religion and morality,. it seems that he believed that out institution “presuppose the existence of a supreme being,” as Justice Douglas once put it. That “supreme being” would seem to have been the God of Jesus.
It seems he believed in God. Or at least,* a* god. I think his views on the bible would have been strongly influenced by Thomas Paine. Especially Paine’s ‘Age of Reason’ which he wrote in France before returning to the US specifically at Jeffersons invitation.
 
Right, that’s what I’m saying. I’m not trying to argue in existence of objective morality. Only that morality can and does have a subjective basis.
Then the criminal is as justified in his views as anyone else - in stark contrast to the objective moral and legal principles of liberty, equality, fraternity and individual responsibility based on the concept of a loving Father…
I find it interesting that you bring up “legal principle” as an example of objective truth here as it is necessarily a social (subjective) construct
All principles - including scientific ones - are social constructs.
The archpriest of absurdity!
 
Then the criminal is as justified in his views as anyone else - in stark contrast to the objective moral and legal principles of liberty, equality, fraternity and individual responsibility…
“All human being are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.” Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Nice line, isn’t it. You could develop a decent morality based on that.
 
I like the metaphor.

The Christian would say that money does have value and it is set by the Central Bank. If there was no central Bank it would not have any objective value.

The atheist says he’s not sure if there is such a thing as the Central Bank. But that money has value in any case. It’s the value we personally put on it. It’s relative, not objective.

The Christian then asks: What if someone values the dollar differently to you? What do you say to him?

I’d say he can value it as he sees fit. But if he wants to operate in the real world, then he has to reach agreement with others as to what value is acceptable.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.
I think I understand the way in which you’re pursuing this metaphor; you’re not saying that Christians – or anyone else – believe that money is intrinsically valuable in the metaphysical sense – materially valuable, that is – but that they, or anyone else, would understand that the statement “money has no intrinsic value” is besides the point, pragmatically speaking. In the realm of concrete human experience, you will a brick wall if you do acknowledge that the value of money is a social reality, with concrete physical consequences" (money gets you food). William James wrote that, “reality is that which pushes back,” and money – in this sense – is a rock solid reality.

Morality could then be described as the spiritual currency – or, indeed, the moral currency – of a society, another social reality that is – in a different respect – a “rock solid reality.”

But morality’s significance is, in fact, even deeper than that, because – while money is not “natural”, is wholly a social convention – morality has both a social dimension and an innate, biological dimension (just as most of us having two arms has an innate biological dimension). As we’ve discussed before, if we did not belong to a species whose desire for life – as a rule – was incredibly strong and intense, a “brick wall” of human motivation – none of us probably be here (i.e., our forefathers would not have survived long enough to procreate). For reason to override the will to live – saying, “there’s no reason to have a will to live”–is something that many of us theorize about, but few succeed in actually accomplishing, or acting upon. The will to live is more fundamental, and it’s on display in spades during an emergency. We even, of course, measure what is “rational behavior” by whether it preserves life, or destroys it – thus, eating paint chips is dubbed “irrational” behavior. Those who do so are either very “stupid” – or suffer from an excess of intelligence (why not eat paints chips, metaphysically speaking?)

Morality – that Declarations of the Rights of Man, that you are speaking of – is a discovered means for human beings to peacefully co-exist, and to survive peacefully (without killing each other), with their material needs (comfort, security) and their emotional needs (love, friendship, productive work) met. It’s an ideal, but a document like that is a step in the right directions, towards that which humans being cannot help but want.

Reason is not strong enough to overcome that, because this desire is more fundamental than reason. It would be like using willpower to try to change one’s genetic code. In fact, it’s been posited that reason itself exists because it proved worthy of serving that fundamental will to live in a hostile environment.
 
It’s not very complicated to create morality from psychological, sociological, and physiological experiences. Obvious factors here include ideas of desire, rewards/punishments, empathy, reciprocity, conditioning, socialization, etc. These are very basic building blocks to developing individual and shared morality. Empathy in itself is a stepping stone away from the Golden Rule.

That this type of morality is not objective, I think, is your main concern here. Yet right/wrong varies greatly across individuals and groups of people. Even within individuals right/wrong may fluctuate dependent on context including emotional state, cognitive development, etc.

Further, if objective morality exists (or matters) then why are there moral dilemmas? Absolute moral truths should yield obvious and universal answers. That this is not the case points to, again, the existence and persistence of subjective morality.
The problem I have with subjective morality is cognition: once I think about it I cannot justify one set of subjective moral values anymore than another moral system. I believe that the language and terminology of subjective morality have been developed by philosophers who want to be able to give themselves “purpose” (and “purpose” that they like) without subscribing to an objective “purpose.”

I know the Church has a position on why there are moral dilemmas. As I’m an atheist, I won’t argue them. I would say, though, that it’s not a matter of our drives being in line with morality but of the morality being comprehensive, and Catholic morality is comprehensive. There are universal answers, but they are not universally followed.
You can call it illusion, I see it as a natural phenomenon of consciousness and perception. What is true to you is not necessarily true to me. Subjective truth, purpose and morality right here.
Rather: what seems to be true to me does not necessarily seem to be true to you, because of your socialization, consciousness, and perception. You are not really making a case about the way reality is (which is constant) but the way you interpret reality. In disciplines like the sciences this would destroy your credibility. Reality is one thing; if either of us fails to apprehend reality, it is not “truth to me” or “truth to you”–it is a failure to apprehend reality.

I am additionally troubled by the fact that subjective morality has no implications (and here I speak to you as someone who has become estranged from modernity, not as someone who is necessarily disputing). You can talk about your set of drives as subjective morality, but that does not exactly tell you what to do. Unlike most animals, you (presumably) do not act solely on your impulses. Once I am conscious of the arbitrary nature of my drives, I doubt their validity in forming a subjective basis for morality. Furthermore, we can deduce a subjective morality, but there is no reason for me to respect others’ subjective moralities or for me to expect that others respect mine. Subjective morality becomes a useless term that just refers to a set of biological/psychological/social phenomena.
Okay so:
God exists, therefore objective moral truths.
And god does not exist, therefore no moral truths.

But what about:
God exists, therefore no objective moral truths.
And god does not exist, therefore objective moral truths.

That is, if god exists, what makes her/his/its morality objective? Did god randomly ascribe certain actions as right/wrong? If so, what makes this any more valid than my own subjective views on morality? It really just becomes another form of subjective truth, god’s and mine.

Further, if god ascribed actions as right/wrong based on moral truths that are necessarily naturally true, well, what purpose does god have in this equation?
I don’t have an answer for you here. I entertained similar thoughts in a recent post. When I refer to “God” I am referring to the Catholic God. A God existing of the nature described by the Catholics would imply moral truth. In terms of another creator, I would not necessarily argue that there is objective truth. (Although to look at your second scenario, I would argue that in any case that a god does not exist, there would be no moral truth.)

If God exists, is omnipotent, and is personal, then his morality would have to be objective. If an omnipotent God declares something to be wrong (or creates something in his image, thereby giving it dignity because he is omnipotent), then it would be objectively wrong. Only something decreed by something omnipotent could gain objective moral truth.

I think the matter I would wrestle with is not this chain of logic but whether or not such an omnipotent, personal God exists. I would question whether anything that is not omnipotent could be a God or creator, and I would question whether anything that is not personal could “create” and be more than natural phenomenon.
 
Rather: what seems to be true to me does not necessarily seem to be true to you, because of your socialization, consciousness, and perception…
Some profound thoughts, if I may say so.

I think there is also the question to which the various proponents of objective morals – the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews, for example – are themselves conditioned by their socialization, consciousness, perceptions, and history. For example, the “Christian tradition” arose within a specific cultural milieu, as the “Muslim tradition” arose in another.
This is perhaps similar to Montaigne’s comment that “one is Christian as one is Perigordian.”

I’ve stated before on this form that on the most basic level, your morality is relative to the tradition you uphold – a Christian morality (in its entirety, with nothing omitted) is relative to your subscribing to the Christian tradition; a Muslim morality (in its entirety, with nothing omitted) is relative to your subscribing to the Muslim tradition.

Muslims believe that the consumption of alcohol, or of pork, is objectively immoral; Christians believe that such a prohibition is only subjectively immoral – man-made, not God-imposed. And, no doubt, the opposite is true for the Muslim perception of Christians.

I’m not sure there is any way to escape this, by these rigorous standards of the sciences. For the sciences, of course, saying that you believe something to objective, therefore you have the right to say it is, is not enough; you have to prove it. Mere consistency in one’s own beliefs --“I believe in God, therefore I have the right to speak of objective morals”-- is not enough.
 
I like the metaphor.

The Christian would say that money does have value and it is set by the Central Bank. If there was no central Bank it would not have any objective value.

The atheist says he’s not sure if there is such a thing as the Central Bank. But that money has value in any case. It’s the value we personally put on it. It’s relative, not objective.

The Christian then asks: What if someone values the dollar differently to you? What do you say to him?

I’d say he can value it as he sees fit. But if he wants to operate in the real world, then he has to reach agreement with others as to what value is acceptable.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.
I thought the value of paper money was based on the amount of gold it is said to represent? Of course the more paper money that is printed the more its value degreases, that is unless there is more gold to back it up. The Christian realizes the true value of money is set by the amount of gold that exists, and the understanding that its very existence can neither be attributed to a Central Bank or any individual human being.
 
I am additionally troubled by the fact that subjective morality has no implications (and here I speak to you as someone who has become estranged from modernity, not as someone who is necessarily disputing). You can talk about your set of drives as subjective morality, but that does not exactly tell you what to do.
I could conceive of a subjective morality that does tell what you do, so to speak. If I may, I’ll use the most simple example:

“If you want to continue to live, then you should not deprive yourself of water.”

If I want to continue to live – a subjective preference – then my not depriving myself of water is an objective necessity. My subjective morality is thus quite clear and objective on that point – if you want to live, drink water. I’m using “moral” here in the broadest sense possible – namely, in the sense of “how should I live; what should my conduct be?”

My subjective morality in terms of my relationship with my siblings also tells me what to do – if you want to be happy, cultivate good relationships with your family members (based on trust, consideration, respect). When my relationships with family members fall by the wayside, I suffer – I am alone or estranged from them, a painful emotion; and if I hurt them, then I am also hurt on that account (via some measure of sympathy or empathy). If I was constituted differently – if I really didn’t need other people in my life --then, admittedly, I would have different rules for living.

If objective morality exists, there is the possiblity that a believer subscribes to both subjective and objective tenets of morality (but isn’t always aware which is which). A Christian, for example, would put a Jewish reverence for life in the objective category, but would put circumcision or abstention from pork in the “subjective” category. A Jewish believer would not agree with that, maintainting that it is all objective, all commanded by God.
 
You could develop a decent morality based on that.
Decent? Perhaps. 🤷

Basing one’s morality on that paradigm would certainly offer us the floor of human decency. But certainly not the ceiling.

No one could become a noble/holy/saintly person based on the Jeffersonian model.

One needs a belief in God–a view that each and every person has inherent dignity because he’s made in the image and likeness of God–to do that.

Again, paraphrasing Mark Shea: The Jeffersonian model cannot instill love of neighbor.
But it can and ought to prevent us from harming your neighbor.
It mandates that if you can’t love your neighbor, at least don’t beat him to death with a baseball bat or kill his kitty cat. That’s a really moral function. It’s just not the highest moral function.—paraphrased from Mark Shea
 
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