God's love is an absurdity

[TheQuestioner]

Yes. When you love other’s that much, you would rather not ever have existed, than know…they will go to hell. Better me no heaven, than them…and eternal hell. It’s called loving other’s more than yourself.

I could easily turn this around on you and say “would it be fair to wipe out all from existence, even those who have actually accepted God and got into heaven, all because a few people through their own free will and choice rejected God and suffer because of it?”

We are not “worried” about ourselves. We are mostly concerned with those that mess up. When you realize you still love (or at least have the capacity) to love those that do the worst and most dreadful things, you realize a God that would accept a universal condition of a state of hell is something that cannot be real.

You act as if God does not care on any level about these people. I’d say that, regretfully, God accepts the choice they have made.

Love is too big for this.

In a way…it is an act of love and respect. God loves us so much he would die for us so that we can enter heaven, but at the same time he gave us free will and respects us so much that he created a place where he would not be so that those who wish to not be with him can…well…not be with him.

Again, us athiests have no problem with “rules”. We have a problem with a god that would punish our fellow man for making the mistake of not following those rules in one , finite lifetime. It’s why we become athiests a lot of the time. This God, cannot love less than us. This God, cannot possibly exist.

Our sins (especially our mortal ones) do not have a finite effect. If all there was was this life then yes, you would be right. However when you tease a child till he cries when he is young the effect is long lasting. A woman who has been raped has to deal with the long lasting effects of this. When you murder a child’s father you create a long lasting effect. These people are changed forever. They do not just simply get over it one day, it stays there and changes them completely. Do not make the mistake of believing that human sins are finite, they are not. But Christ bore the eternal punishment for our sins, which was death, so that we would not have to. Through this act of love we can escape the eternal punishment.

Yes, we give up all dreams of an eternal life, because its alternative is for mankind to suffer eternally. Not us, but those…that screw up. Yes…we love THAT much. And we walk away from all that is not loving…especially this doctrine.

Sounds heroic till you realize the person who you want to annihilate yourself for at that stage would not really care. Not only that but it would have been their choice to be where they were anyway.

With no doctrine presented to us that is more loving, we have no choice other than unbelief.

Like the OP, you have a misunderstanding of hell, but most of all you have a misunderstanding of love.

If my child does not love me, it does not mean I am unjust. If I do not choose to give that child as many chances as are necessary to love me back, it would mean I am not loving or just.

God does try to give us as many chances as we can get. He gives every person a guardian angel, imbues us all with a conscience, writes his law in our hearts, takes into account our situations in life (a person who lives in a place where the word of God has not come yet will not be held accountable for this, as through no fault of their own are they ignorant of God (this is called invincible ignorance)) and most of all he actually died for us. And i don’t mean a simple death. Each and everyone of our sins added to his suffering. He, a God, supreme creator, died for us men because he loves us.

If you were the only person who had ever existed, and you had sinned, Christ would have still come down and died for you.

 

[Dameedna]

Daneedna, I think you need to view it like this…

If you had a child there is a chance that, unfortunately, they may grow up to become…well…less than ideal citizens. However if you kept that child at home and did not allow him to be influenced by the outside world the chance is greatly reduced (free will vs. controlled will).

If any child of mine did something wrong, I would question my parenting skills. But I get your point.

Now if that Child ends up becoming influenced by the world and becomes a criminal you could do two things. You could either protect the child anyway you can (feed him, support him) or you could give him up the the authorities (temporal punishment vs. tolerance).

Now lets say your criminal son decides one day that he wishes to leave the house and go out into the world into a life of crime. You could do two things. You could bar the door shut, tie him to a chair and make sure he can’t move, or you could try hard to convince him what he is doing is a bad idea, but let him make his own decision (forced into heaven vs. free to choose hell).

That is basically what hell is. God loves us so much and he wants us to be happy, but he also gave us free will. We have the choice of walking out on him if we wish. He wont chain us to heaven and never let us leave. Once we die **our **wills are fixed for eternity for him or for the alternative. God does not stop loving you, but since he is love and you reject him, he has created a place that is devoid of love, a place where he is not…hell. In a sick and twisted way, something totally insane (an insanity that cannot possibly exist in heaven) hell exists because we (or at least those who choose to do evil) want it to exist, not because God wants it to.

The punishment for all our sins is hell, even the very little ones. They separate us from God. Through his death and resurrection Jesus has given everyone on earth a ticket to heaven (contrary to the misconception that Jesus got the tickets and gives them only to those who accept him). But when we sin we separate ourselves from God. Think of a venial sin as merely getting the ticker dirty, while a mortal sin is tearing the ticket apart (something we all do from time to time). We have the sacraments to bring us back, but at the end of the day we choose what we choose. People say that a loving God would let everyone into heaven. Well…he has, but people keep ripping their tickets.

Yes, we DO understand your free will argument. We simply don’t accept your conclusions.

My problem is not and has never been, with the concept of punishment. Christians keep trying to use the child/adult analogy, never realizing that YOU as an adult, would alway’s accept your child back, if they show one ounce of change. You may have to let them go, but you would never do so eternally. You will give everything for them, as long as you thought it would make a difference. And you would never, ever give up on them. Not for an eternity would you do so. Love…transcends all boundaries. Imo.

The doctrine is not wrong, because it talks about justice and punishment. It is wrong, because it claims that it is an eternal punishment, for a finite choice.

Even with hitler. It may seem rather gross to some people that I say this, but it is not the hitlers of the world that deserve the most punishment, they deserve the most love. I say this because I understand what love brings me and I would rather pity the hitlers than hate them.

Can you imagine for a second what it would take, what must be in your heart and mind and how far removed from love you would actually have to be, to become a Hitler.? Imagine for a moment, to hate humanity that much? It boggles the mind. I’d rather die right now and blink out of existance than live for an eternity as a hitler. I would spend an eternity trying to help a hitler. They are just so far removed from everything, I cannot do anything but feel pity.

No matter how it’s explained, you would never punish your own child eternally, without giving them an eternal choice to reconcile.

It’s the finite choice, resulting in eternal punishment that is the problem with your doctrine.

This is a problem(eternal punishment) that ultimately rests with a christian philosophy that God exists outside of time, is eternal…and THEREFORE the state of humanity is eternal. This is philosophy not religion. It is a point of view, based on our lack of understanding of what eternal existance or infinity could mean.

I will suspect, as much as we cannot understand the eternal, athiests understand it better than most people of faith. We get it. It cannot be true.

Eternal punishment, is simply not love to me. Maybe I’m wrong, but I suspect I’m closer to an understanding of the unconditional love the Jesus first espousesed than many rule and objectively moral based christians do.

 

[TheQuestioner]

If any child of mine did something wrong, I would question my parenting skills. But I get your point.

Hurray!

Yes, we DO understand your free will argument. We simply don’t accept your conclusions.

My problem is not and has never been, with the concept of punishment. Christians keep trying to use the child/adult analogy, never realizing that YOU as an adult, would alway’s accept your child back, if they show one ounce of change. You may have to let them go, but you would never do so eternally. You will give everything for them, as long as you thought it would make a difference. And you would never, ever give up on them. Not for an eternity would you do so. Love…transcends all boundaries. Imo.

Well, i was thinking about writing out this long paragraph till i realized i could answer this issue with a single sentence. Once we die, our wills are fixed. That is to say that your kid, when ready to choose (an analogy to the state right before death), can make the decision to stay at home where it is safe, or leave home where it is chaotic and evil. But once that choice is made, it is made. The choice is not uninformed. It is not a choice based on ignorance, it is a choice in a true sense of the word, without impediment. It is an eternal choice, and there is nothing that could be done to change it. You could beg and plead with your kid all you want for him to change his mind, but he wont. His will is fixed and you would be wasting your time. Look at that, i did end up writing a long paragraph

Can you imagine for a second what it would take, what must be in your heart and mind and how far removed from love you would actually have to be, to become a Hitler.? Imagine for a moment, to hate humanity that much? It boggles the mind. I’d rather die right now and blink out of existance than live for an eternity as a hitler. I would spend an eternity trying to help a hitler. They are just so far removed from everything, I cannot do anything but feel pity.

Wow…just…wow. I am surprised how far and yet how close you are to Christianity. To say “can you imagine how far from love you would have to be to become hitler?” is astonishing. Not because you are an atheist, but because a person of religion would say “can you imagine how far from God you would have to be to become hitler?”. Not because everything centers around God (though it does), but because in the bible it is said that God is love.

I think you are a person that has so much love, but you just do not know what to do with it or where it comes from, or its nature. You place such an emphasis on love that it becomes similar in context to the emphasis a religious person places on God. This is no coincidence because God is love.

1 John 4
16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

So although i am astonished that you start to resemble a religious person in form and thought, i am not surprised, as God is love. You and a religious person would be talking about the same thing and not even know it. Though you have alot of love though, you have a slight misunderstanding of what it really is.

No matter how it’s explained, you would never punish your own child eternally, without giving them an eternal choice to reconcile.

Once again, God has already suffered the punishment for your sins. Your child has been given the key to the house because you have bought it, cleaned it and prepared it for him. However when this person sins they break that key. If your child wants to he could get it repaired (sacrament of reconciliation). But you are not throwing him out on his butt, you are letting him go if he wishes.

Please read my last post to address the problem with saying our sins our finite.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Hurray!

Well, i was thinking about writing out this long paragraph till i realized i could answer this issue with a single sentence. Once we die, our wills are fixed. That is to say that your kid, when ready to choose (an analogy to the state right before death), can make the decision to stay at home where it is safe, or leave home where it is chaotic and evil. But once that choice is made, it is made. The choice is not uninformed. It is not a choice based on ignorance, it is a choice in a true sense of the word, without impediment. It is an eternal choice, and there is nothing that could be done to change it. You could beg and plead with your kid all you want for him to change his mind, but he wont. His will is fixed and you would be wasting your time. Look at that, i did end up writing a long paragraph

Wow…just…wow. I am surprised how far and yet how close you are to Christianity. To say “can you imagine how far from love you would have to be to become hitler?” is astonishing. Not because you are an atheist, but because a person of religion would say “can you imagine how far from God you would have to be to become hitler?”. Not because everything centers around God (though it does), but because in the bible it is said that God is love.

I think you are a person that has so much love, but you just do not know what to do with it or where it comes from, or its nature. You place such an emphasis on love that it becomes similar in context to the emphasis a religious person places on God. This is no coincidence because God is love.

1 John 4
16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

So although i am astonished that you start to resemble a religious person in form and thought, i am not surprised, as God is love. You and a religious person would be talking about the same thing and not even know it. Though you have alot of love though, you have a slight misunderstanding of what it really is.

Once again, God has already suffered the punishment for your sins. Your child has been given the key to the house because you have bought it, cleaned it and prepared it for him. However when this person sins they break that key. If your child wants to he could get it repaired (sacrament of reconciliation). But you are not throwing him out on his butt, you are letting him go if he wishes.

Please read my last post to address the problem with saying our sins are finite.

 

[Dameedna]

Well, i was thinking about writing out this long paragraph till i realized i could answer this issue with a single sentence. Once we die, our wills are fixed.

Say’s who? Who makes the claim that our will is fixed upon our death?

This is a belief. Why you feel that way I’m not sure but the view is usually based on philisophical thought. I disagree.

That is to say that your kid, when ready to choose (an analogy to the state right before death), can make the decision to stay at home where it is safe, or leave home where it is chaotic and evil. But once that choice is made, it is made.

Until they decide they’ve messed up and come home. Since I love them, I will alway’s leave that option open. Are you saying as a parent, you would at some point never provide the choice they can make to love you again.

As I said, the problem is not with choice. It is the problem of an eternal choice being made in a finite existance. It is not and never will be, a form of unconditional love.

The choice is not uninformed. It is not a choice based on ignorance, it is a choice in a true sense of the word, without impediment.

And yet I am continually told I am ignorant of god’s love. hmm…

Most of our choices are based on ourselves and what we choose. We may be ignorant but it is the world that has given us no capacity for verification other than the natural universe. We didn’t choose that.

Divine revelation requires a belief that God would do such a thing(reveal things). I do not find that rational.

It is an eternal choice, and there is nothing that could be done to change it. You could beg and plead with your kid all you want for him to change his mind, but he wont.

Yes I can beg and plead for my child to listen. What on earth makes you think my begging and pleading has some timeline on it?

What makes you think my desire for my childs love, would not be an eternal choice alway’s freely given throughout eternity with my love?

My love has no boundaries.

you would be wasting your time.

I do not agree. My child is worth it. Even if it took an eternity for them to choose my love. I’d give them that time. How could I not, and call it love? How could I not give them eternity and call it unconditional love, when love is based on a condition of time? irrational.

I think you are a person that has so much love, but you just do not know what to do with it or where it comes from, or its nature. You place such an emphasis on love that it becomes similar in context to the emphasis a religious person places on God. This is no coincidence because God is love.

I do a lot of things with my love. Including debating with those that try and confine it to their beliefs

1 John 4
16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

Excellent. I live in love and reject doctrines of heaven and hell.

okay?

So although i am astonished that you start to resemble a religious person in form and thought, i am not surprised, as God is love. You and a religious person would be talking about the same thing and not even know it. Though you have alot of love though, you have a slight misunderstanding of what it really is.

I agree. We disagree on love. And truth.

Cheers

 

[tonyrey]

When you love others that much, you would rather not ever have existed, than know…they will go to hell.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Say’s who? Who makes the claim that our will is fixed upon our death?

This is a belief. Why you feel that way I’m not sure but the view is usually based on philisophical thought. I disagree.

See…then our debate is futile. You are trying to debate with me the Catholic concept of hell and when I explain to you one of the points of this belief, that our wills are fixed after death, you simply say “I do not agree”. Well…bravo, of course you don’t. We are not debating here whether our wills are fixed after death or not, we are debating whether the Catholic view of hell makes sense or not. Part of this view is that our wills are fixed after death. If you simply dismiss this point then the whole argument seems nonsensical. Well…without any of the points I mention the whole argument really is nonsensical.

**1033 **We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of **definitive self- exclusion **from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” …key words…definitive self-exclusion

**1037 **God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619

Now, try going back and making a rebuttal to my arguments keeping in mind that the will is fixed after death and then we will be talking.

Until they decide they’ve messed up and come home. Since I love them, I will alway’s leave that option open. Are you saying as a parent, you would at some point never provide the choice they can make to love you again.

Like I said above the will is fixed. I could provide them with a way of coming back, but the wont take it. There would be no point.

As I said, the problem is not with choice. It is the problem of an eternal choice being made in a finite existance. It is not and never will be, a form of unconditional love.

In order to sin we must truly shut our hearts to God. In order to be unrepentant we must truly not care or not want to repair our relationship with God. For how our sins have an eternal effect please read my earlier post.

And yet I am continually told I am ignorant of god’s love. hmm…

haha i believe you are ignorant in the sense that you do not realize the great love you have is from God, though you are aware of that love itself.

Most of our choices are based on ourselves and what we choose. We may be ignorant but it is the world that has given us no capacity for verification other than the natural universe. We didn’t choose that.

That’s the thing…and i think you would agree with me on this. Every single one of our moral choices should be made with love. If your choice does not have love in it, it is useless, or as a Christian would say, it is sinful. Sin is a rejection of God, who is love. If you make a moral choice and neglect love purposely, you reject God and therefore sin. Like I said, you are far from the Church and yet so close at the same time.

Divine revelation requires a belief that God would do such a thing(reveal things). I do not find that rational.

Once again, we are not debating beliefs, but whether or not they work. The whole moral system would be wrong and not work without divine revelation, but with it it makes sense. If you want to debate the validity of it then we can, but we are debating whether or not it makes sense in a Catholic concept.

Yes I can beg and plead for my child to listen. What on earth makes you think my begging and pleading has some timeline on it?

Because one day your child will grow up and make that decision. In the same way humans are mortal. We have to be, cause if we were immortal in our fallen state we would truly be in hell. And it is within this short and mortal stage that we get to choose God or not God, or in a language you would know well, love or no love.

What makes you think my desire for my childs love, would not be an eternal choice alway’s freely given throughout eternity with my love?

Your desire has nothing to do with him accepting your love, it is his desire that determines his fate. Once he chooses…well you know…
Unless however you feel like barring the doors and chaining him to a chair (taking away his free will)

My love has no boundaries.

Super:thumbsup:

I do not agree. My child is worth it. Even if it took an eternity for them to choose my love. I’d give them that time. How could I not, and call it love? How could I not give them eternity and call it unconditional love, when love is based on a condition of time? irrational.

Once again…he wont choose your love. You could give him an eternity, but after he makes that fateful decision that’s it. Unless you take away his free will he wont come back. (remember this is all analogy for a fixed will)

I do a lot of things with my love. Including debating with those that try and confine it to their beliefs

Keep up the good work then:thumbsup:

 

[stillhavntfound]

Hi,

At the moment of death our choice is made and that holds for eternity? I don’t find the discussion of will being fixed at death useful until someone can tell me how an angel enjoying the beautific vision can entertain and then act on thoughts of rebellion (Satan). Does that mean that anyone who didn’t choose to reject God while alive and thus is granted admission into heaven for all eternity still isn’t really safe from eternal damnation in hell because our free will allows us to choose to be jealous of God and then we’ll be expelled like Satan was? Or do we lose our free will once we get to heaven so we’re guaranteed to stay there? Do angels have free will? They must. How else did Lucifer blow it? You see where thinking gets us? Nowhere. Human beings have magnificent brains with tremendous reasoning abilities, all of which are totally useless when it comes to comprehending God. Can anyone PROVE me wrong on this? Hint; I already know the answer.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Hi,

At the moment of death our choice is made and that holds for eternity? I don’t find the discussion of will being fixed at death useful until someone can tell me how an angel enjoying the beautific vision can entertain and then act on thoughts of rebellion (Satan). Does that mean that anyone who didn’t choose to reject God while alive and thus is granted admission into heaven for all eternity still isn’t really safe from eternal damnation in hell because our free will allows us to choose to be jealous of God and then we’ll be expelled like Satan was? Or do we lose our free will once we get to heaven so we’re guaranteed to stay there? Do angels have free will? They must. How else did Lucifer blow it? You see where thinking gets us? Nowhere. Human beings have magnificent brains with tremendous reasoning abilities, all of which are totally useless when it comes to comprehending God. Can anyone PROVE me wrong on this? Hint; I already know the answer.

I’ll start from the bottom up. If you read the bible, you will realize that at the end of time (In the book of Revelations), God makes new the heavens and the earth, and creates New Jerusalem, a place of peace where those who did good and endured till the end will live with him **forever. **Thus, in answer to your question “Does that mean that anyone who didn’t choose to reject God while alive and thus is granted admission into heaven for all eternity still isn’t really safe from eternal damnation in hell because our free will allows us to choose to be jealous of God and then we’ll be expelled like Satan was?”, No. We are safe. Because we shall be with God forever (like he promised us), it must follow that we must have made an eternal decision to love and obey him forever.

Revelations 21

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelations 22

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. **And they will reign for ever and ever.

**It’s not that our free will is lost. If that was so we would become zombies, eating and sleeping when God told us to. Its that using our free will we make an eternal choice.
As for the angels rebelling against God, I don’t really know the exact details. No one really does, although the bible hints at pride. However one thing is known for certain through the bible. First, the angels have free will, otherwise they could not have chosen to rebel. Second, Satan’s will is fixed. Same as the will of all his angels. Same as the will of all the angels. When reading the book of revelations you find that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire forever, along with all his angels. And God’s angels live with him forever. Angels are elect (I think that it is what it is called) which means that once they make a decision, they do not change their minds. Some made the eternal choice against God and others made the eternal choice for God. How some of the angels could have possibly chosen to go against God (especially since they had the inclination toward good and saw God for all he truly is) is beyond me. However, because this occurred we know that anyone could choose hell over God like the demons did. So when asking ‘who would choose hell?’ remember the devil and his angels.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to know why the evil angels rebelled, at least unless i can know immediately after why the good Angels didn’t. Hey…if Satan had divine knowledge and his decision made sense to him it would probably make sense to me haha.

 

[budgie2]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the angrier I get. I somehow feel called to deepen my understanding of my faith. But some things annoy the blits out of me.

Constantly, God is proclaimed as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent – and ALL LOVING. God is continually pronounced as all loving and merciful. It’s one of the fundamental core beliefs in Catholicism. I WANT to believe this. But realistically, somebody who damns people to hell is not ALL loving if you ask me…

If a mother has a child. She will love that child forever despite what that child does. Even if her child rapes, murders, steals, bombs cities and whatnot; the mother will continue to LOVE that child forever. Yes, she may be distraught, forever saddened, and angry with her child’s actions – but her love will never cease, and she will always welcome her child into her love. Furthermore, she would not want ANYTHING BAD to happen to her child regardless of the things he has done. WHY? BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM FOREVER AND HER LOVE WILL NEVER CEASE. This is what love is!

And when I hear such things as, “Thou shalt be condemned in hell and burn forever”, or “Thou shall be engulfed in eternal flames for eternity” – I seriously get angry.

WHO IS MORE LOVING HERE?

The mother who loves her child forever and forgives her child forever and will always welcome her child?

Or

A God who loves ALL; but if they trespass against him he will condemn thee to hell for ETERNITY?

There is no mercy in condemning someone to hell. Even though God forgives sins through the Ministry of the Church, I cannot see how our God can condemn people to hell. No matter who it is, no body deserves to go there. Even if a murderer killed my entire family I would never want him to be in a pit of fire for eternity. It just isn’t right. Plus, looking at the world now, the utmost majority of the world does not follow the word of God, they do not go to Church, they do not confess their sins, and they continually sin throughout their lives. - These people, according to the Bible will go to hell. Moreover, it basically even says if you’re a good and loving person you will still go to hell if you don’t follow the word of Christ. Right…

Might I add that people will be argueing that, “God does not send people to hell; they send themselves.” Well there doesen’t have to be a hell in the first place. If God is God, he is the ALL POWERFUL God and therefore hell does not need to exist. Moreover, he should bring his children back to him as intended - God being the alpha and omega; or beginning and end.

Anyone who loves another person WOULD never even consider damming someone into hell for eternity. It’s just not right. And this is what seriously pisses me of about my faith and I’m trying to find a deeper meaning in all this, but I can’t.

I appreciate you’re upset when you write this. God does not just love the persecuter but also the victim and the victim’s family. Both are of equal worth to God. There needs to be some type of justice. I think you are rash in saying that if a person killed your family then you would not want them to go to hell unless it has happened to you personally. I would not have a clue how I would feel. It might be better to believe in a final judgement than take it upon yourself to administer justice and kill that person in retaliation and their family. I do not believe that any one will suffer for eternity. Some people will be destroyed at death. Others will go to purgatory. Eternal suffering is out of date.

 

[Detales]

Many of the debates and disagreements in ay faith, either between them or within them, are due to a dynamic not often considered, because in most chrches it is not even known. Being of the Catholic faith, I’d say this is liklly more true of “christianism” than of some others, simply because of the nature of the Church, its history, and the things it has to publicly profess in order to maintain integrity in that realm.

But here’s the thing. Even though I’m betting it wil be denied, there is in Catholicism, as well as toher major world religions, an inner aspect that is not publicised as a part of the public face of the faith. That unpublicised part has deteriorated on our church, as I pointed out, to the point of denial. In other faiths it has been publicised and therefore weakened.

but here’s the difference, as unsavory and whatever it may seem to some. The inner, or esoteric teachings, are for those who begin to understand that the superficial teachings given to the the majority can be deepened, but only if they are capable of understandig the gosples and the Bible in a different way. A good introduction to this other way might be such a book as Maurice Nicoll’s work The New Man, an interpretation of some parables and miracles of Christ. and a good introduction to esoteric Catholicism of Christianity might be *Basic Self Knowledge *by Harry Benjamin. The prefatory material of that last is availble on Amazon.

So, back to the thread topic, many of the questions common to ordinary debate and consternation disapear quite readily by way of looking at the Gospels in a different light, the light I have come to see them under. I have thus been saved many mind twisting explanations and extensions of frail arguments about this or that. It all makes a lot more sense now, and I can see better what God’s Love has to do with.

 

[KrazyKaiju]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the angrier I get. I somehow feel called to deepen my understanding of my faith. But some things annoy the blits out of me.

Constantly, God is proclaimed as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent – and ALL LOVING. God is continually pronounced as all loving and merciful. It’s one of the fundamental core beliefs in Catholicism. I WANT to believe this. But realistically, somebody who damns people to hell is not ALL loving if you ask me…

If a mother has a child. She will love that child forever despite what that child does. Even if her child rapes, murders, steals, bombs cities and whatnot; the mother will continue to LOVE that child forever. Yes, she may be distraught, forever saddened, and angry with her child’s actions – but her love will never cease, and she will always welcome her child into her love. Furthermore, she would not want ANYTHING BAD to happen to her child regardless of the things he has done. WHY? BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM FOREVER AND HER LOVE WILL NEVER CEASE. This is what love is!

And when I hear such things as, “Thou shalt be condemned in hell and burn forever”, or “Thou shall be engulfed in eternal flames for eternity” – I seriously get angry.

WHO IS MORE LOVING HERE?

The mother who loves her child forever and forgives her child forever and will always welcome her child?

Or

A God who loves ALL; but if they trespass against him he will condemn thee to hell for ETERNITY?

There is no mercy in condemning someone to hell. Even though God forgives sins through the Ministry of the Church, I cannot see how our God can condemn people to hell. No matter who it is, no body deserves to go there. Even if a murderer killed my entire family I would never want him to be in a pit of fire for eternity. It just isn’t right. Plus, looking at the world now, the utmost majority of the world does not follow the word of God, they do not go to Church, they do not confess their sins, and they continually sin throughout their lives. - These people, according to the Bible will go to hell. Moreover, it basically even says if you’re a good and loving person you will still go to hell if you don’t follow the word of Christ. Right…

Might I add that people will be argueing that, “God does not send people to hell; they send themselves.” Well there doesen’t have to be a hell in the first place. If God is God, he is the ALL POWERFUL God and therefore hell does not need to exist. Moreover, he should bring his children back to him as intended - God being the alpha and omega; or beginning and end.

Anyone who loves another person WOULD never even consider damming someone into hell for eternity. It’s just not right. And this is what seriously pisses me of about my faith and I’m trying to find a deeper meaning in all this, but I can’t.

It seems that there is an underlying dilemma here. It is something I’m trying to deal with myself: what is love? Once a better understanding of love is found, then it may be easier to understand why God does certain things.

These are some things I’ve come to believe, based on some studying. I’m not sure if they’re correct, but see what you think. For the sake of the discussion, it is best to assume we have free will:

1. It is not He who damns us to hell, but we who damn ourselves. The fundamental decision-maker for our afterlives is our choice to accept or abandon God. While He loves us all, it is ultimately US who decide whether or not to accept the love. But if He FORCES this love on us, then it wouldn’t be love at all, for love requires a free will.
2. Yes, God continues to love His children in spite of their crimes. He might not want anyone to do bad things, but they do. Again, this traces back to free will.
3. Getting rid of hell gets rid of free will and fudges Christianity altogether. It makes everything permissible. It also seems to get rid of “free will” because there isn’t really a free choice between good and evil. We can choose good acts or bad acts, but without hell, we’ll end up in the same place anyway.
4. Actually, “being a good and loving person” and “following the word of Christ” may be synonymous! It depends on the meanings of the terms.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not sure that the mother/child analogy is really a great one. God isn’t much like a mother. Or perhaps human/motherly love is very much a shadow of God’s love, which is different and strange, and bigger. Reading scripture, and even looking at the world, I don’t think we should be surprised by this.

What I would say is that Hell is a place constructed and sustained by love, just like the rest of reality. If a person chooses to reject truth and embrace untruth, in full knowledge of what that means, would it be loving for God to take that decision away from him? Free will is the ultimate expression of God’s love. To deny it, override it, would be to destroy it.

People choose to be with God, or not be with God - choosing not-God or not-Truth means existing in a very strange state indeed. Since our souls are immortal, and ultimately we will exist outside of time, eternity is really the only possibility. You can’t talk about temporary states outside of time, or change.

It is certainly a part of my faith, and I suspect that of many others, that God will be perfectly just in his judgments - people who didn’t really choose to be away from him will not be sent away.

 

[Detales]

I concur with BlueGoat about the part where we do it to ourselves. I differ a bit in how, but that is another matter. What I would like to note here is the anecdotal evidence of “particular judgement” that might be gleaned from the growing body of data concerning the NDE phenomenon. I am curiously impressed by three consistencies that emerge from this data.

The first is that no matter the particulars of the person who has an NDE (Near Death Experience) their experience always conforms to a pattern which includes from one to seven of the identical phases of the phenomenon, in always the same order.

The second is that if their experience includes the “judgement” phase, it is invariably in the form of a life review, that ranging from a quick skim to actually experiencing, say, the emotions of the families of someone they killed. In paramount and significant that in this phase there is no exterior “judge.” Rather, the person is able to see and assess their life from an absolutely impartial position, feeling its consequences and portents.

Third, a Being of Infinite Love is usually encountered as a guide or Presence. Almost invariabely, that Presence is named by the experiencer as the cheif figure in that person’s religious belief, whether it be Mohamed, Lau Tze, or Jesus. A few get past this and actually understand Who/What this Presence IS.

But in any case, regardles of expereince and conclusions, the feeling is left that all experiences in this state are sponsored by Love.

There is another case, that of people who have attempted suicide, where the contents of their NDE is not so pleasant. It is characterized by the absence of Love to a palpable degree, with comensurate characters populating the experience. And yet, some of these experiencers were “rescued” by a Being of Light, again named according to the person’s belief system, or with a transcendent realization on recognition of the Nature of the Being.

So I’m quite convinced that Blue is correct in saying we do it to ourselves. Life is the Path of Ultimate Responsibiliy, know it or not. You yourself are the judge and jury in the end, and you won’t take sides, but see and assess only what IS.

Having experienced part of such an NDE, I conclude two things. Due to the consistent pattern of the NDE expereince no matter with whom it occurs, there must be an underlying soul structure common to all Men consistent with bieng made in the image and likeness of God.

Second, that God must be on excellent terms with the founders of the religions that are waring either ideologically or actually on Earth. Either that, or there is the same Being who is the guide and friend of the experiencer. If so, it is my personal contention that it is not wise to claim Who that Being IS through the framework of an Earth religion, no matter it’s claims to authenticity. That last statement may seem radical to staunch Catholics on here, but think about it for a moment, if you will.

First of all, nothing in my zealous and well catechised Catholicity prepared me for the astonishing Reality of my experience. Nothing. Words do not apply in that state, and are a poor, poor, shadow of the actuality. Neither does any dogma or law apply than the Golden Rule. In essence, the judgement consists of two questions one ask themselves: “Did I Love?” and “What did I learn?” There is nothing aobut attending Mass, or eating meat on Friday, or giving thiings up for Lent. Nothing.

I have no doubt that anyone who has had a similar expereince, or especially a more complete one than mine, would realdily attest to this. As for anyone who has not had such an expereince, whatever you can say about it is sheer speculation based on the thick and very largely opaque lens of inexperience. I’m here to tell you that experience trumps faith. I say this for two reasons.

Faith, no matter how sincere, is belief. It is not knowledge. Also, a good Catholic. very Catholic, friend of mine who witnessed the circumstances of my experience thought I had gone bonkers to the extent that he recommended psychiatric care. Yet I knew I was perfectly sane and retailed all my mental faculties, not only intact, but enhanced. I was able to prove this, yet was regarded as, well, I was regarded unkindly in this matter by friends anChurch. But later, this same friend had a nearly identical experience under different circumstances. Ten years later when we met again, we had a conversation which few might understand as to its referents, but certainly neither thought the other to be unbalanced, only gifted with an extraordinary expereince.

What I am saying here, is that there is an underlying Reality common to all Humans that precedes their education as to who and what they think they are, including religion. It has to do with what they are in Reality. And while Catholcism might serve as a template for a symbolic or exoteric understanding, it may not serve as a complete Way in terms of the original esoteric Reality. Now that I know that, after years of study of the matter, I see how it likely happend that this is the case. Any religious or scientific fath or non-faith is inadequate in this matter. And yet, I completely agree with BlueGoat. We do it to ourselves, including our faith, whatever that might be. And yet, there is a Way, that transcends faiths.

 

[Monica4316]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the angrier I get. I somehow feel called to deepen my understanding of my faith. But some things annoy the blits out of me.

Constantly, God is proclaimed as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent – and ALL LOVING. God is continually pronounced as all loving and merciful. It’s one of the fundamental core beliefs in Catholicism. I WANT to believe this. But realistically, somebody who damns people to hell is not ALL loving if you ask me…

If a mother has a child. She will love that child forever despite what that child does. Even if her child rapes, murders, steals, bombs cities and whatnot; the mother will continue to LOVE that child forever. Yes, she may be distraught, forever saddened, and angry with her child’s actions – but her love will never cease, and she will always welcome her child into her love. Furthermore, she would not want ANYTHING BAD to happen to her child regardless of the things he has done. WHY? BECAUSE SHE LOVES HIM FOREVER AND HER LOVE WILL NEVER CEASE. This is what love is!

And when I hear such things as, “Thou shalt be condemned in hell and burn forever”, or “Thou shall be engulfed in eternal flames for eternity” – I seriously get angry.

WHO IS MORE LOVING HERE?

The mother who loves her child forever and forgives her child forever and will always welcome her child?

Or

A God who loves ALL; but if they trespass against him he will condemn thee to hell for ETERNITY?

There is no mercy in condemning someone to hell. Even though God forgives sins through the Ministry of the Church, I cannot see how our God can condemn people to hell. No matter who it is, no body deserves to go there. Even if a murderer killed my entire family I would never want him to be in a pit of fire for eternity. It just isn’t right. Plus, looking at the world now, the utmost majority of the world does not follow the word of God, they do not go to Church, they do not confess their sins, and they continually sin throughout their lives. - These people, according to the Bible will go to hell. Moreover, it basically even says if you’re a good and loving person you will still go to hell if you don’t follow the word of Christ. Right…

Might I add that people will be argueing that, “God does not send people to hell; they send themselves.” Well there doesen’t have to be a hell in the first place. If God is God, he is the ALL POWERFUL God and therefore hell does not need to exist. Moreover, he should bring his children back to him as intended - God being the alpha and omega; or beginning and end.

Anyone who loves another person WOULD never even consider damming someone into hell for eternity. It’s just not right. And this is what seriously pisses me of about my faith and I’m trying to find a deeper meaning in all this, but I can’t.

I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree.

God continues to love sinners, that is why He died on the Cross. If He did not love sinners, He wouldn’t have provided a way back to Him, He wouldn’t rejoice whenever a person repents. God CONTINUES to love the people who are in hell. It HURTS Him that they are there, that there are sinners at all, that people are harming themselves. Look at the Cross… Christ came down to us and died a painful death, He GAVE HIS LIFE for people who hate Him. A mother would give her life for her child… but would any person give his life for an enemy? Christ did… to make us His friends.

So, why is there a hell…

well God doesn’t WANT hell… He wants everyone to be with Him. But if a person says ‘NO’ to every one of His invitations… if God calls this person to FREE forgiveness, and they STILL say no… what can God do? we have free will, because without free will we wouldn’t be able to love at all.

So yes people do send themselves to hell… and this takes a real conscious rejection of God. The Church teaches that God will judge each soul individually. That a person who has never understood God, or Christianity, will be judged less harshly. There is still mercy for such people. But a person who keeps on rejecting God… God can’t force them to be with Him, for all eternity! that would be torture to that person, because they hate God, due to their rejection.

So, hell is a separation from God… the doors out of hell are locked from the inside, not from the outside. The people don’t WANT to get out. They’d rather keep all the anger, all the unforgiveness, etc, then simply let it go and go to Heaven. Why? Because the chief sin is pride… out of their pride, they are UNABLE to let go of their sin. That is why we must choose God in this life, while we still can.

There IS Mercy… it is real. Look at the Cross.

 

[cynic]

.
Our sins (especially our mortal ones) do not have a finite effect. If all there was was this life then yes, you would be right. However when you tease a child till he cries when he is young the effect is long lasting. A woman who has been raped has to deal with the long lasting effects of this. When you murder a child’s father you create a long lasting effect. These people are changed forever. They do not just simply get over it one day, it stays there and changes them completely. Do not make the mistake of believing that human sins are finite, they are not. But Christ bore the eternal punishment for our sins, which was death, so that we would not have to. Through this act of love we can escape the eternal punishment.

But is sin eternal and infinite in its effect, rather than just being “long lasting”? If not, then why does it deserve a eternal punishment of infinite severity?

For, some, it comes down an ‘equality of sins’ argument ; it is not the effect on others that matters, it is the offence caused to God. So what kind of God creates eternal misery as the punishment for offending him (to any degree)? Is that justice or just a function of … anger?

.
Sounds heroic till you realize the person who you want to annihilate yourself for at that stage would not really care. Not only that but it would have been their choice to be where they were anyway.

We want is what gratifies us in the moment, without suffering the consequences, so in a sense we are choosing temporal pleasure over God (via weakness), but not through a specific desire for eternal separation from God, and certainly not for the associated misery. I mean, sin usually feels good doesn’t it? Why would we want pain?

 

[tonyrey]

But is sin eternal and infinite in its effect, rather than just being “long lasting”? If not, then why does it deserve a eternal punishment of infinite severity?

 

[jkiernan56]

God does NOT send anyone to hell. People send themselves to a “place” where they separate themselves from God. Hopefully they are able to make peace with God before death if they have commited serious evil(s) in their life.

Because God does not send anyone to hell, God’s love is NOT an absurdity as stated here. If a premise is false, any conclusion drawn from that false premise is also false.

 

[cynic]

cynic;5410754:

It is not a question of wanting pain but of preferring sin, in particular the sin of pride - regarding ourselves as more important than anyone else, the sin of selfishness - loving ourselves more than anyone else, and the sin of lust - not sexual lust but the lust for absolute power over ourselves. These sins give a great amount of pleasure but they also lead to misery because they alienate others and lead to isolation. …

Well here’s another question : *why *do they give a great amount of pleasure?

If God is the source of good, why does sin feel good (in the short term)?

 

[Bluegoat]

tonyrey;5414506:

Well here’s another question : *why *

do they give a great amount of pleasure?

If God is the source of good, why does sin feel good (in the short term)?

There are no sins that do not spring from goods created by God. That is, sin is a good thing being used in the wrong way or in the wrong context.

The pleasure we get from these things, is then a pleasure in some way intrinsic to them, and in itself good. So bodily sins like eating of sex can give us pleasure, because they are supposed to. They still give us pleasure if we use them inappropriately. Our appetites are not fully under the thumb of our reason, and it is the job of reason, not the appetite, to determine when a thing is being used properly. When reason says - no more cake - the appetite continues to demand. This sets up an uncomfortable situation, and so “being good” seems very unpleasant, and the sin seems that much more wonderful.

Many of the intellectual sins have their root in pride, which is the desire to put ourselves in the wrong place. We put our own importance above that of other people, the Earth, morality or God. We ourselves become the arbiter of existence. This is pleasurable because God is the greatest good, and so to be God must also be very pleasant. By understanding our proper place in the universe, we must understand that we are not the arbiter of existence, but dependent, the greatest good is found outside of ourselves, and we must submit to it.

For most people, it takes time to learn that there is great joy in this, and many don’t really believe it until they experience it. And it takes work and desire to achieve it. Much of religion is geared toward exercises to help people learn this.