God's Plan

[janG]

Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss how we see God’s plan throughout history. I ask our Muslim readers to please understand that Catholics absolutely believe that there is only ONE God, the same God who created the world and Adam and Eve and keeps the whole thing in existence today. I have specifically avoided addressing Christ’s divinity, what the mass is, Mary’s role in this plan, grace, sanctification, etc., since that will just take us off in directions I’m not trying to address here. I’ve done this in a VERY bare-bones kind of fashion. Perhaps this simple presentation will help them see the progression and continuity Catholics see and why Muslim claims like people are born perfect, the Torah not the same, Jesus brought a book, etc. seem so incomprehensible to us. We believe God keeps the promise He made back in the Garden of Eden and directed what we know as salvation history. To us, no matter how much man has managed to mess things up, God kept (and keeps) His plan on course and will until the end of time.

1. God created Adam & Eve and gave them free will.
2. They chose to disobey God. They messed up man’s relationship with God. Sin and death entered the world. The gates of heaven were closed. But, God loves man and promised to fix the relationship.
3. God chose Abraham to begin the process of fixing man’s relationship with God. He chose to do it through Abraham’s son Isaac. He made a covenant with Abraham to do this. God spoke to Abraham directly.
4. Moses, gave the law to God’s chosen people (the Jews/Isaac’s line). They had a visible human leader, priests, sacrifices for sin, etc. (visible signs) God spoke to Moses directly.
5. God sends prophets to the Jews to get them back on track when they mess up and let them know the messiah (savior/redeemer) is coming.
6. Jesus, the messiah, fulfills (completes) the old covenant God made with Abraham and establishes the new covenant relationship with God. His obedience (free-will choice), death (sacrifice) and resurrection (the victory over sin and death) fixes man’s relationship with God. The gates of heaven are opened.
7. Jesus started a church, gave it a visible human leader, gave it authority to teach, gave it priests, sacraments, etc. (visible signs) He also promised to protect that church from teaching error about God.
8. God offers this new covenant relationship with Him to ALL mankind.

To us, God made man to know Him and love Him and serve Him in this life so that we can enjoy eternal happiness with Him in heaven. Adam and Eve, by disobeying God, made it impossible for man to enter heaven. Mankind needed a savior in order to restore our relationship with God and make it possible for us to get to heaven.

I think the gulf between Islam and Christianity goes clear back to the Garden and understanding exactly what happened to man and to their relationship with God when Adam and Eve committed that very first sin.

 

[Booklover]

janG:

Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss how we see God’s plan throughout history. I ask our Muslim readers to please understand that Catholics absolutely believe that there is only ONE God, the same God who created the world and Adam and Eve and keeps the whole thing in existence today. I have specifically avoided addressing Christ’s divinity, what the mass is, Mary’s role in this plan, grace, sanctification, etc., since that will just take us off in directions I’m not trying to address here. I’ve done this in a VERY bare-bones kind of fashion. Perhaps this simple presentation will help them see the progression and continuity Catholics see and why Muslim claims like people are born perfect, the Torah not the same, Jesus brought a book, etc. seem so incomprehensible to us. We believe God keeps the promise He made back in the Garden of Eden and directed what we know as salvation history. To us, no matter how much man has managed to mess things up, God kept (and keeps) His plan on course and will until the end of time.

1. God created Adam & Eve and gave them free will.
2. They chose to disobey God. They messed up man’s relationship with God. Sin and death entered the world. The gates of heaven were closed. But, God loves man and promised to fix the relationship.
3. God chose Abraham to begin the process of fixing man’s relationship with God. He chose to do it through Abraham’s son Isaac. He made a covenant with Abraham to do this. God spoke to Abraham directly.
4. Moses, gave the law to God’s chosen people (the Jews/Isaac’s line). They had a visible human leader, priests, sacrifices for sin, etc. (visible signs) God spoke to Moses directly.
5. God sends prophets to the Jews to get them back on track when they mess up and let them know the messiah (savior/redeemer) is coming.
6. Jesus, the messiah, fulfills (completes) the old covenant God made with Abraham and establishes the new covenant relationship with God. His obedience (free-will choice), death (sacrifice) and resurrection (the victory over sin and death) fixes man’s relationship with God. The gates of heaven are opened.
7. Jesus started a church, gave it a visible human leader, gave it authority to teach, gave it priests, sacraments, etc. (visible signs) He also promised to protect that church from teaching error about God.
8. God offers this new covenant relationship with Him to ALL mankind.

To us, God made man to know Him and love Him and serve Him in this life so that we can enjoy eternal happiness with Him in heaven. Adam and Eve, by disobeying God, made it impossible for man to enter heaven. Mankind needed a savior in order to restore our relationship with God and make it possible for us to get to heaven.

I think the gulf between Islam and Christianity goes clear back to the Garden and understanding exactly what happened to man and to their relationship with God when Adam and Eve committed that very first sin.

Great post Jan! Very clear and concise! Should be a big help to our Muslim friends in understanding what we profess.

 

[janG]

Hi Booklover,

Thank you. I have to admit I’m a little disappointed there has been no reply from our Muslim readers. I’d be interested in seeing a similar posting about Islamic beliefs. I’ve been trying to understand their beliefs as best I can, but I’m left with a lot of questions.

So far in following what I’ve been able to grasp of their understanding, I was left feeling God is kind of spiteful…we’re given the same test as Adam and Eve and yet we sure aren’t in a Garden of Eden! Since they failed so miserably when things were perfect, I don’t quite see how we can possibly be expected to succeed even with God’s mercy and following Islam. I mean, look what happened to the world in Noah’s time…God only found one man and his family worth saving. Noah trusted in God’s mercy, but what happened to everybody else? What drove them all to turn away from God? There has to be some explanation for why all the others failed the test. I don’t understand why there was a covenant with Abraham in Islam either. What does God promise in that covenant? Then the thought that mere human men could overcome God’s intentions by altering the Torah and totally losing Jesus’ book, really would shake my faith in God. The whole thing about all the original writings being destroyed when they finally compiled the whole Koran (Uthman I think?) means I’ve got to trust that God used His power to keep the Koran exactly as dictated, but He didn’t bother to do it for the Torah or Jesus’ book. Seems like that makes God inconsistent…trust me now even though you can’t trust what’s left of what I did before. For me personally, I’d have a lot of trouble trusting Him on anything if He’s inconsistent like that.

I also just can’t wrap my brain around the idea that we’re born perfect. Wouldn’t we be living in a world full of Mother Teresa’s if we were? I mean I always desire and intend to be kind and understanding, but still end up losing my temper at times. How can that happen if I don’t intend for it to happen? Am I nuts or what? The only reasonable explanation is that I wasn’t born perfect. It’s helps me to understand that it’s that nasty old stain from Adam and Eve’s original sin. It makes me accutely aware that I desperately need my Savior. And then I can turn to God, ask His forgiveness and be assured of His help to overcome my imperfections through prayer and the sacraments He gave to help me. I just can’t reconcile the concept of being born perfect, but still messing up when I don’t intend to. What is Islam’s explanation for this?

And then there’s the problem of all the evil and suffering in the world. Why do bad things happen to good people? Without understanding what happened in the Garden, I’d be left thinking God is mean and unjust. I just can’t grasp a reasonable explanation for it otherwise. Perhaps a Muslim can explain since I know they don’t believe God is mean and unjust.

 

[Booklover]

This is a quote from the Cathechism.
IN BRIEF

1. At the time appointed by God, the only Son of the Father, the eternal Word, that is, the Word and substantial Image of the Father, became incarnate; without losing his divine nature he has assumed human nature.
2. Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN.
3. Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.
4. Christ being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
5. The Incarnation is therefore the mystery of the wonderful union of the divine and human natures in the one person of the Word.

Vickie

 

[Faith101]

janG:

Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss how we see God’s plan throughout history. I ask our Muslim readers to please understand that Catholics absolutely believe that there is only ONE God, the same God who created the world and Adam and Eve and keeps the whole thing in existence today. I have specifically avoided addressing Christ’s divinity, what the mass is, Mary’s role in this plan, grace, sanctification, etc., since that will just take us off in directions I’m not trying to address here. I’ve done this in a VERY bare-bones kind of fashion. Perhaps this simple presentation will help them see the progression and continuity Catholics see and why Muslim claims like people are born perfect, the Torah not the same, Jesus brought a book, etc. seem so incomprehensible to us. We believe God keeps the promise He made back in the Garden of Eden and directed what we know as salvation history. To us, no matter how much man has managed to mess things up, God kept (and keeps) His plan on course and will until the end of time.

1. God created Adam & Eve and gave them free will.
2. They chose to disobey God. They messed up man’s relationship with God. Sin and death entered the world. The gates of heaven were closed. But, God loves man and promised to fix the relationship.
3. God chose Abraham to begin the process of fixing man’s relationship with God. He chose to do it through Abraham’s son Isaac. He made a covenant with Abraham to do this. God spoke to Abraham directly.
4. Moses, gave the law to God’s chosen people (the Jews/Isaac’s line). They had a visible human leader, priests, sacrifices for sin, etc. (visible signs) God spoke to Moses directly.
5. God sends prophets to the Jews to get them back on track when they mess up and let them know the messiah (savior/redeemer) is coming.
6. Jesus, the messiah, fulfills (completes) the old covenant God made with Abraham and establishes the new covenant relationship with God. His obedience (free-will choice), death (sacrifice) and resurrection (the victory over sin and death) fixes man’s relationship with God. The gates of heaven are opened.
7. Jesus started a church, gave it a visible human leader, gave it authority to teach, gave it priests, sacraments, etc. (visible signs) He also promised to protect that church from teaching error about God.
8. God offers this new covenant relationship with Him to ALL mankind.

To us, God made man to know Him and love Him and serve Him in this life so that we can enjoy eternal happiness with Him in heaven. Adam and Eve, by disobeying God, made it impossible for man to enter heaven. Mankind needed a savior in order to restore our relationship with God and make it possible for us to get to heaven.

I think the gulf between Islam and Christianity goes clear back to the Garden and understanding exactly what happened to man and to their relationship with God when Adam and Eve committed that very first sin.

Peace JanG

Nice Post

InshAllah, i am trying to put something together or find a source from online that discusses the “bare basics” in Islam.

Just a correction though…Muslims DO NOT believe that humans are born perfect. Perfection is an attribute that belongs to Allah only. We believe that we are born without sin…in a sinless state.

 

[Faith101]

InshAllah, if i make any mistakes…I hope that the other Muslims on the forum will correct me.

God’s Plan

To begin, God’s plan does not change according to the actions or reactions of us human beings.

1. God created Adam and Eve with free will.
2. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they repented. End of “original sin.” So what was the whole point of putting them in heaven first if God’s plan was to put them on earth? Allah is the most Wise…and this story is meant for us to learn from

O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith. (Quran 7:27)

1. Adam and Eve on earth, worshipping the one true God.
2. At a certain point in time, their children start directing their worship to other than God. The first time this happened was after the death of 3 (unsure about #) pious men passed away. The devil encouraged the people of that place to build statues of these men just to “remember them” and their good deeds. Generations pass, and people start to worship these statues or direct their prayers to these statues thinking that they have some power or that they can relay the message to God.
3. Allah in his inifinite mercy sends the people messengers. The role of the messenger is to call people back to the worship of the One God. Since that time, there have been countless prophets. Allah tells us that every people got their own prophet, who came to them, in their own language, reminding them of the truth and callng them back to the worship of the one God. The Quran is full of stories of what happened to some of those prophets…they were mocked, called liars, and even killed.
4. The last of these messengers is Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) who called to the same thing every messenger called to…the worship of the one true God. His mission was simply one that required him to give glad tidings to those people who submitted to the will of God and warn those who refuse. The power to guide belongs to God

Not upon you (Muhammad SAW) is their guidance, but Allah guides whom He wills… (Chapter #2, Verse #272)

1. So, how do we get back to heaven?

We obey Allah and his messenger. The purpose of this life is to worship God. But how can we call ourselves “believers” if we have never been tested in our beliefs? Its like calling a person courageous without them ever having displayed an act of courage.

This life is a test for us…and the best of believers will be faced with the toughest of trials…and Allah gives glad tidings to those who persevere in their patience and continue to worship Him, whether its in the good times of the bad

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? … (Quran 2:214)

Our reactons to these trials becomes the measurement of our faith. For instance, there are people, when faced with adversity will cry all night and pray all night long to God. THen, as soon as God takes away that test, they continue on with their daily lives, forgetting about God. We are warned about this in the Quran.

And when some hurt touches man, he cries to his Lord (Allah Alone), turning to Him in repentance, but when He bestows a favour upon him from Himself, he forgets that for which he cried for before, and he sets up rivals to Allah, in order to mislead others from His Path. Say: “Take pleasure in your disbelief for a while: surely, you are (one) of the dwellers of the Fire!” (Quran 39:8)

"…Nay, it is only a trial, but most of them know not! (Quran 39:49)

But, we are not perfect…and we will never be perfect, so then how can we please God and make it into Paradise. By the Mercy of the All-Merficul. But that doesnt imply that we are all the same in the eyes of God. We are not. The best amongs us is the one who is the most conscious of God and acts accordingly. However, Muslims do not despair of the mercy of Allah

Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 39:53)

 

[Faith101]

…continued

To end, Muslims worship God only. They make no partners with Him, nor do they direct their prayers to anyone other then him. Excuses such as "these beings (saints/prophets/etc) bring us closer to God or they intercede for us is completely rejected in Islam.

Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): “We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.” Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful. (39:3)

What! Do they take for intercessors others besides Allah. Say: “Even if they have no power whatever and no intelligence?” 39:43)

Is not Allah enough for his Servant? But they try to frighten thee with other (gods) besides Him! for such as Allah leaves to stray, there can be no guide. 39:36

So, thats it in a nutshell. Worship One God, obey Him…and you shall recieve eternal happiness, InshAllah

 

[Faith101]

So far in following what I’ve been able to grasp of their understanding, I was left feeling God is kind of spiteful…we’re given the same test as Adam and Eve and yet we sure aren’t in a Garden of Eden! Since they failed so miserably when things were perfect, I don’t quite see how we can possibly be expected to succeed even with God’s mercy and following Islam.

We are not required to be perfect. No one will enter paradise with their deeds alone, i believe we can agree on that. It also requires the mercy of God. And Allah tells us in the Quran not to despair of His mercy, for that is a characteristic of the people who DO NOT believe

I mean, look what happened to the world in Noah’s time…God only found one man and his family worth saving. Noah trusted in God’s mercy, but what happened to everybody else? What drove them all to turn away from God? There has to be some explanation for why all the others failed the test

simple. They took their desires as gods besides Allah. THey have free will…and they willingly choose evil. Noah preached to them for 950 years! That is what makes us humans have the capability to be better than Angels, because we have free will. We can be the best of believers or the lowest of creation, its up to us.

I don’t understand why there was a covenant with Abraham in Islam either. What does God promise in that covenant? Then the thought that mere human men could overcome God’s intentions by altering the Torah and totally losing Jesus’ book, really would shake my faith in God.

Like I said in my previous post, every nation recieved their own prophet. All prophets were only sent to guide those in that nation they were sent. The last messenger, Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) was sent to all of mankind. Consequently, the revelation given to the previous messengers were not meant to be perserved. Allah has only promised to protect the Quran from corruption.

I also just can’t wrap my brain around the idea that we’re born perfect. Wouldn’t we be living in a world full of Mother Teresa’s if we were?

Perfection belongs to Allah alone.

I mean I always desire and intend to be kind and understanding, but still end up losing my temper at times

.

Lol, i know what you mean. Thats what we call “jihad” in the arabic language. That struggle between yourself and yourself. Its not easy, but we have to continually try to please God and control our desires to the best of our abilities.

It makes me accutely aware that I desperately need my Savior. And then I can turn to God, ask His forgiveness and be assured of His help to overcome my imperfections through prayer and the sacraments He gave to help me. I just can’t reconcile the concept of being born perfect, but still messing up when I don’t intend to. What is Islam’s explanation for this?

We overcome our desires through prayers and perseverance and struggling with ourselves. And making a habit of repenting to God. As Muslims, this is something very important for us. Repentance is something that should occur between you and your lord…and you dont even have to tell anyone. It is a direct connection to your Creator.

You wont be perfect, ever. and Neither will I. But perfection is not what is required of us, thank God for that! Like I said before, as long as you are worshipping only one God and setting up no partners to Him, all other sins can be forgiven. All through repentance.

And then there’s the problem of all the evil and suffering in the world. Why do bad things happen to good people? Without understanding what happened in the Garden, I’d be left thinking God is mean and unjust. I just can’t grasp a reasonable explanation for it otherwise. Perhaps a Muslim can explain since I know they don’t believe God is mean and unjust.

I believe i addressed this in my prevoius post

May Allah forgive me if I said something incorrect in my explanations. And please, if something is unclear, let me know

 

[LuigiColetta]

7. So, how do we get back to heaven?

Hi Faith101,
I didn’t read everything you posted yet (God willing soon), but I got stuck on this quote above…

Based on your faith, when and why did we get cast out of heaven?

Peace!
Your brother,
Luigi

 

[Faith101]

LuigiColetta:

Hi Faith101,
I didn’t read everything you posted yet (God willing soon), but I got stuck on this quote above…

Based on your faith, when and why did we get cast out of heaven?

Peace!
Your brother,
Luigi

Peace Luigi,

Good question. In order to fully answer this question, inshAllah, i will have to explain some things i left out of my posts.

Before creating Adam, Allah said to the angels “Behold, i will create a **vicegerent ** on earth” (Quran 2:30).

So, we can see, FROM THE BEGINING, God’s plan was to have Adam and Eve and their children live on EARTH. Man was created for the purpose of acting as vicegerent on the earth and he came to the world to fulfill this mission. How did Adam and Eve show themselves worthy of this role…simple…by taking responsibility for the sin they committed. They said

"…They said: “Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your mercy, we shall certainly be lost.” (Al-A`raf 7:22-23)

They are now ready to be sent to earth…and so they were. However, God promises not to leave them, but promises to send them divine guidance…a promise which He has fullfilled through the various prophets and messenges He has sent throughout history. Now, there are no more messengers/prophets…b/c that divine guidance can be found in a revelation compiled in a book called the Quran. It now becomes our responsibility to search for that truth, and accept that guidance.

To summarize…Adam and Eve sinned, repented, were forgiven and then sent to start their lives on earth. They took with them the lesson about disobeying God and have proved worthy of being the “masters” of the world (having rights and inteligence not given to all of the creatures on earth).

I hope I have explained things clearly…pleae let me know if something is not understandable.

edit: i was reading through the other threads and I found this qoute that a brother bought up…looks like we agree on this concept of khalifah (man as a vicegerant on earth)

GEN 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

So, we can see, FROM THE BEGINING, God’s plan was to have Adam and Eve and their children live on EARTH. Man was created for the purpose of acting as vicegerent on the earth and he came to the world to fulfill this mission. How did Adam and Eve show themselves worthy of this role…simple…by taking responsibility for the sin they committed. They said

"…They said: “Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your mercy, we shall certainly be lost.” (Al-A`raf 7:22-23)

They are now ready to be sent to earth…and so they were. However, God promises not to leave them, but promises to send them divine guidance…a promise which He has fullfilled through the various prophets and messenges He has sent throughout history. Now, there are no more messengers/prophets…b/c that divine guidance can be found in a revelation compiled in a book called the Quran. It now becomes our responsibility to search for that truth, and accept that guidance.

To summarize…Adam and Eve sinned, repented, were forgiven and then sent to start their lives on earth. They took with them the lesson about disobeying God and have proved worthy of being the “masters” of the world (having rights and inteligence not given to all of the creatures on earth).

But what was the point of this test?
Why have them in a special garden, is it a test run?

I hope I have explained things clearly…pleae let me know if something is not understandable.

edit: i was reading through the other threads and I found this qoute that a brother bought up…looks like we agree on this concept of khalifah (man as a vicegerant on earth)

GEN 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”

Not entirely, you see the garden, man has dominion over all things, however that does not mean, man was created to live on the earth.
In the garden Adam and Eve were without shame, like babies, having no concept of loving anything but God.

It was through our choice that we entered the world, and the garden still exists, yet, it is protected by cherubim, and we cannot ever find it or enter it.

Had we not sinned, we would still exist in the garden, with dominion over all the creatures “in the garden.”

 

[Faith101]

But what was the point of this test?
Why have them in a special garden, is it a test run?

Like i said before, it proved that the human being is capable of taking the responsibility of being God’s khalifah on earth. They were able to take responsibility for their sins…ADMIT that they made a mistake…and repent. Allah, the All-Merciful, accepted that repentence. That’s it.

In arabic, a leader is called “mas’ool” which literally means “someone who takes responsibiity” Adam and Eve showed their capability to do this. I know the Biblical version is a bit different than the Quranic one. I realize that Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the devil…or they both blame the devil, etc. THey dont take responsibility for their actions…but the Quran teaches otherwise.

Not entirely, you see the garden, man has dominion over all things, however that does not mean, man was created to live on the earth.
In the garden Adam and Eve were without shame, like babies, having no concept of loving anything but God.

We did have free will…hence, the ability to sin.

It was through our choice that we entered the world, and the garden still exists, yet, it is protected by cherubim, and we cannot ever find it or enter. Had we not sinned, we would still exist in the garden, with dominion over all the creatures “in the garden.”

ok, here is the verse in the Bible again

GEN 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl** of the air**, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”

Please correct me if i’m wrong…but dont Christians believe in a paradise where souls are floating happily with God…nothing really physical. So are the cattle, fish and fowl in Paradise? It makes more sense that they are here on earth.

You believe that God closed the door of heaven b/c of the sin of two people and required the blood of an innocent man to regain paradise. Ofcourse, you have to…or else Jesus being god/son of god wouldnt make sense anymore. I do not believe this. The point of this thread is to discuss our basic beliefs in terms of “God’s plan”

We are going to disagree, and thats fine with me. In due time, we will all know the truth

 

[LuigiColetta]

Faith101:

GEN 1:26 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl** of the air**, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”

Please correct me if i’m wrong…but dont Christians believe in a paradise where souls are floating happily with God…nothing really physical. So are the cattle, fish and fowl in Paradise? It makes more sense that they are here on earth.

You believe that God closed the door of heaven b/c of the sin of two people and required the blood of an innocent man to regain paradise. Ofcourse, you have to…or else Jesus being god/son of god wouldnt make sense anymore. I do not believe this. The point of this thread is to discuss our basic beliefs in terms of “God’s plan”

We are going to disagree, and thats fine with me. In due time, we will all know the truth

We believe Adam and Eve were created on Earth…but Earth, along with humanity, was not the same as we see it now. It was physical alright…
God blocked access to the Tree of Life! The punishment for sin was death! and God is just! Just that the death that God was talking about is a spiritual death, a seperation from God’s life!

well…gotta go…will continue later…
peace,
Luigi

 

[janG]

Faith 101,

Ok, I’m confused. Do Muslims believe the Garden of Eden was in heaven? Are you saying that Adam and Eve sinned while they were in heaven? Do Muslims believe God created good and evil? How can God possibly be all good, all just, all merciful, and create evil? He is truth. How can truth contradict itself?

Genesis makes it very clear that the Garden of Eden was on earth and that Adam and Eve were created from the earth and had never been to heaven. Until the sin, Adam and Eve only knew goodness because God only created good. It was only when they sinned that mankind’s innocence was lost. It was only then that the struggles between good and evil within ourselves began.

Genesis 2:
[7] then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the **tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
[15] The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
[17] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
[18] Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”
[25] And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

They were not ashamed because they did not know lust and selfishness and anger and greed and envy and all those other things we struggle with. They only knew goodness and pure love. Then the devil lies to them and instead of trusting what God told them and obeying His command, they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

[7] Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons. [8] And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

See, now they know shame and hide from God because now they have the knowledge of evil as well as good. Then God cursed the devil and told him there would be strife (battle) between him and the woman and her seed.

Then God tells Adam he must now toil for a living, He tells Eve she will have much pain in childbirth, and He tells them both their bodies will die. (hardship, suffering, pain, death) He then drives them out of the Garden and will not let them reach the tree of eternal life. (loss of heaven)

Notice that in verse 17 God told Adam He would die if they ate the fruit. We know they didn’t physically die that day, so what was it? It had to be a kind of spiritual death/a separation from God’s goodness/a disruption in our ability to love and do good.

All of this is why mankind needs a Savior. Of course God knew Adam and Eve would lose mankind’s innocence, and God let all this happen because what he offers us in the new covenant made through Christ’s blood, is even better than what Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden.**

 

[janG]

Faith 101,

I also wanted to ask what you think it means to have a covenant with God. You didn’t specifically address what the purpose of the covenant with Abraham was. You just said Allah sent prophets to all peoples and none of that stuff was meant to be preserved until Mohammed. Covenant has a special meaning to us, so I wondered what it means to Muslims.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

janG:

Faith 101,

Ok, I’m confused.
-Do Muslims believe the Garden of Eden was in heaven?
-Are you saying that Adam and Eve sinned while they were in heaven?
-Do Muslims believe God created good and evil?
-How can God possibly be all good, all just, all merciful, and create evil? He is truth.
-How can truth contradict itself?

Salaam janG;
My friend, that’s a lot of questions; some would make a thread on their own.
I am sure Brother Faith is as busy as everyone else; we will try, Incha’Allah, to answer you as soon as we can.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Faith101]

Peace Jan

Ok, I’m confused. Do Muslims believe the Garden of Eden was in heaven? Are you saying that Adam and Eve sinned while they were in heaven?

I looked into the story more in detail…there is a debate among scholars whether or not Adam and Eve were in paradise or on earth. Allah knows best. However, this doesnt make a difference…Allah, before their creation, planned for them not to remain in the “heavenly” place they were in, whether it was heaven or a heavenly place on earth.

Allah is the best of planners…and his plan, like i mentioned before, does NOT change according to the actions or reaction of us human beings. Allah’s plan was for us to be on this earth (the earth as we see it now).

Do Muslims believe God created good and evil? How can God possibly be all good, all just, all merciful, and create evil? He is truth. How can truth contradict itself?

Allah has all power and all control over everything. Nothing happens without his permission or against His will, whether good or evil. I found an article online to help you understand the Islamic perspective of why evil/bad things happen, it gives a couple of reasons why bad things happen,etc…inshAllah, i hope it helps

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-EnglishAsk_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544478

Genesis makes it very clear that the Garden of Eden was on earth and that Adam and Eve were created from the earth and had never been to heaven. Until the sin, Adam and Eve only knew goodness because God only created good. It was only when they sinned that mankind’s innocence was lost. It was only then that the struggles between good and evil within ourselves began.

Adam and Eve had free will from the begining…that is why it was possible for them to disobey God. Adam and Eve struggled between what they knew they should have done, and what the devil was encouraging them to do. And the devil won in that battle. So, that battle between good and evil was present at the garden of eden.

Then God tells Adam he must now toil for a living, He tells Eve she will have much pain in childbirth, and He tells them both their bodies will die. (hardship, suffering, pain, death) He then drives them out of the Garden and will not let them reach the tree of eternal life. (loss of heaven)

Yes, the Devil is our enemy…in the Quran, we are continously warned about his many deceitful ways and Allah tells us not to be tricked like our parents (Adam and Eve) were tricked. We are here on this earth to worship God. LIke I said before, you can not be courageous if you have never shown an act of courage…likewise, how can you be a believer if your faith has never been tested.

For many pious believers, the hardships that htey face on this earth only serve to deepen their faith and bring them closer to God.

Notice that in verse 17 God told Adam He would die if they ate the fruit. We know they didn’t physically die that day, so what was it? It had to be a kind of spiritual death/a separation from God’s goodness/a disruption in our ability to love and do good.

But we have the capability to do good…way before the supposed “sacrifice” of Jesus Christ. We also have the ability to show love and be merciful. I dont understand what you mean by this.

Also, from an Islamic perspective…the sin of one person can not be put on anyone else. Just because my dad was a disbeliever doesnt mean automatically God separates his mercy/love from ME. IT doesnt make much sense…God is all-Merciful and the Most Just.

All of this is why mankind needs a Savior. Of course God knew Adam and Eve would lose mankind’s innocence, and God let all this happen because what he offers us in the new covenant made through Christ’s blood, is even better than what Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden

I can’t agree with this. It all doesnt add up for me. God takes away His mercy, closes the gates of Heaven and then tells us that He’s going to come down and die for us so He can open paradise for us again? Why the big circle. God can forgive without reasons and especially without the brutal murder of an innocent man. The God you describe is not the God I know…and it is not the one I worship.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

I can’t agree with this. It all doesnt add up for me. God takes away His mercy, closes the gates of Heaven and then tells us that He’s going to come down and die for us so He can open paradise for us again? Why the big circle. God can forgive without reasons and especially without the brutal murder of an innocent man. The God you describe is not the God I know…and it is not the one I worship.

You have to look at it from the bigger picture, God’s original plan is for us to live in the garden of eden.
However we chose to live away from God, we chose sin, and our natures are fallen because now we know things other than God, we know sin.
The death of Christ is symbolic of the sacrafice of Abraham, the sacrafice that God provided to commemorate the covenant between Him and man.
The sacrafice that signifies the submission of man to God.
Jesus was was that ultimate sacrafice, the unblemished lamb.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

You have to look at it from the bigger picture, God’s original plan is for us to live in the garden of eden.
However we chose to live away from God, we chose sin, and our natures are fallen because now we know things other than God, we know sin.
The death of Christ is symbolic of the sacrafice of Abraham, the sacrafice that God provided to commemorate the covenant between Him and man.
The sacrafice that signifies the submission of man to God.
Jesus was was that ultimate sacrafice, the unblemished lamb.

Its is all well and good if someone is coming from a perspective where they know nothing about God. Perhaps, if i was raised with this idea…and never had any exposure to Islam, i wouldnt have had such a problem with it. Perhaps i would have thanked God for giving himself up for me…but from an Islamic perspective…a God who dies isnt even worthy of worship. I apologize if this sounds offensive, but its my opinion.

Allah is all-Merciful and all-Just. He does not pass sin on from one person. The Islamic version is the one that appeals to my fitrah…alhamdulilah.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

a God who dies isnt even worthy of worship. I apologize if this sounds offensive, but its my opinion.

I understand why you cannot understand it, having been muslim.

You see the mistake you make is to limit the power of God.

God is so beyond us that death has no meaning to God, therefore to apply your concept of what is appropriate for God is actually denying power to the Lord.

As Christians we believe that God can incarnate and die bodily, and still remain God, because He is not limited in anyway.

Do you think that dying takes away anything from the glory of God?

Surely not, however it does make us realise how much God loves us, He incarnates only for us, it doesnt matter to Him, but we do, since we are His children.