God's Plan

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r.gonzales:
we make it confusing? there’s no explanation that anyone in the world can give to explain the trinity that makes sense. and i challenge any christian here, whether catholic or any other sect to try to explain how something can be the father of itself, be an everliving entity who died for the sins of its own creation; be just and fair yet dump the sins of all of mankind upon the shoulders of one “man” who is supposed to be himself - who ironically (and supposedly) asked himself why he has forsaken himself. and who’s supposed to be omnipotent yet admit that he is not able to do anything of his own will.

… and they say we make it confusing??? :confused:
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I’m sure I do this too, but it’s going to be confusing if you carry pre-determined assumptions into it rather than starting from scratch. The Quran does this when it asks how God can have a son “because he has no consort.” Like we think God actually had intercourse or something.

The Father referring to the Son as “himself” like you said wouldn’t even be correct and that’s not even part of the doctrine. They are two different people. As long as you implicitly mix in your own beliefs with the explanations given like this, they will never be consistent.
 
There needs to be a basic distinction here between person and nature, between who and what.

It would be helpful in making these distinctions about the nature and person of God to read a book like Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners, or Theology and Sanity; the ideas discussed are useful even for nonbelievers. But it often seems to me that Islam does not have a developed enough theology to try to make these distinctions.

Does God know himself? Does He eternally have an “idea” of himself? If he does know himself, is that knowledge perfect? Does that knowledge exist outside of Himself? Does that idea of himself contain every perfection found in himself? Is it so perfect that it possesses all the Divine attributes including that of personhood? That is what Christians believe about the Word of God.

God’s nature cannot be encompassed by human knowledge. But neither can it be contrary to logic, since God made our minds in conformance with his reality.

But it is this sort of thinking about God (brought about by God’s own revelation of Himself to man) that Islam seems to resist, or even refuse to consider.

The Qur’an speaks of God’s hand or eye. Are we to understand this literally or metaphorically? Is God body or spirit? The answer seems to be that we are not to understand it according to our human reason (which God created), but neither are we to attempt any further understanding.
 
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exoflare:
Oh, yeah it’s true… God is really not a mystery. He’s even simpler than his own creation. Every single aspect of him basic enough to fit into our finite human minds. That makes so much more sense. No wonder you have to resort to responses like this.
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Exoflare, Jesus peace be upon him was able to do amazing miracles, by the will of God. YET, there were still those who denied him. For them, they wanted to beleive what htey wanted to believe and no miracle, let alone an explanation, would change their minds.

May God guides us and not make us among those people whose eyes, ears and hearts are sealed. Ameen

I’ve said it before, and i dont mind saying it again. WE DO NOT CLAIM TO UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING ABOUT GOD…sorry about hte caps, i just want to emphazise it. we ONLY know about Him, what He has choosen to reveal to us. He has revealed that He is one, with no son or daughter, and no father or mother.He neither begets, nor is He begotten. Simple, we can understand it. Makes sense.

As a Muslim, we arent allowed to go and try to investigate the details that God has not revealed about Himself.

I hope you can understand the difference. In any case, we will all know at the end (subhanALlah, time flies…and it wont be long before that time). InshAllah, we will all realize the truth and submit to it, before the dirt is thrown in our face. Ameen.
 
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exoflare:
The Father referring to the Son as “himself” like you said wouldn’t even be correct and that’s not even part of the doctrine. They are two different people.
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two different people. yet my statement that you believe that Allah is one of three and three in one at the same time is false… :rolleyes: . thank you for just proving my statement to be correct. :tiphat:
 
janG said:
“you believe that Allah is one of three…”

This is all so old. I would like just ONE of the Muslim posters on this board to actually listen to the fact that we totally 100% believe that there is ONE God. Yes, we have a different understanding of what God has revealed about Himself, but just for once quit telling us that we believe in multiple gods! I’m truly extremely weary of trying to have a rational discussion with people who won’t even acknowledge the most fundamental of our beliefs. I have lost a tremendous amount of respect for Muslims because of this and doubt I’ll post here anymore because of it.
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One question and if this is answered then I will ask another: Do Muslims believe in the Torah or Old Testament?

StMarkEofE
 
Yes. We dont however believe that the current one is 100% accurate.
 
Hello Brother St Mark,

I believe in whatever conforms with the Quran and Hadeeth ( Tradition) Weather in Genesis or otehrwise.

Peace
 
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meedo:
Hello Brother St Mark,

I believe in whatever conforms with the Quran and Hadeeth ( Tradition) Weather in Genesis or otehrwise.

Peace
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Maybe I should have asked: What part of Genesis do you not believe?

StMarkEofE
 
may be it smuch easier if you can point out a verse and lets discuss it .
 
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r.gonzales:
two different people. yet my statement that you believe that Allah is one of three and three in one at the same time is false… :rolleyes: . thank you for just proving my statement to be correct. :tiphat:
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Do you really think you’re fooling anybody here? (besides maybe other Muslims) I’m not the only one who can see how you try to use the words “God” (Allah) and “Father” interchangeably to try and throw everybody off. Get serious or quit wasting everybody’s time.
 
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meedo:
may be it smuch easier if you can point out a verse and lets discuss it .
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“Let *US *make man in OUR image”

Who is the US and OUR? To us it means that only God can create from nothing and that there is evidence of more that the Father here. We see atleast two persons the Father and the Word.

StMarkEofE
 
Well,

This has been discussed many times before . In short . In semetic languages the “WE” and “US” is for glorifying and it doesnt mean multitude of people. Its very common use even in our modern world . 🙂

Peace
 
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meedo:
Well,

This has been discussed many times before . In short . In semetic languages the “WE” and “US” is for glorifying and it doesnt mean multitude of people. Its very common use even in our modern world . 🙂

Peace
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Then why was not these words used in the beginning of creation only when man was created?

StMarkEofE
 
i am sorry i dont unerstand the question. Can u refrase it ? or elaborate?
 
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meedo:
i am sorry i dont unerstand the question. Can u refrase it ? or elaborate?
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When God separated the light from the dark, He didnt invoke the “us” or “our” words. When He created the earth He didnt invoke the “us” or "our words, etc. Only when He made man.

StMarkEofE
 
well it depends on how the phrase is set.

If he is speaking himself he would use WE , if somebody is speaking about God ( like in the light and creation of heaven and earth ) then they would say " and God created …"

But any way still in my opnion tyhsi doesnt prove the trinity as it might or might not be used .

Peace
 
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meedo:
well it depends on how the phrase is set.

If he is speaking himself he would use WE , if somebody is speaking about God ( like in the light and creation of heaven and earth ) then they would say " and God created …"

But any way still in my opnion tyhsi doesnt prove the trinity as it might or might not be used .

Peace
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Why would God think or speak as WE if there wasnt at least a duality involved? Angels cant create from nothing only God can. Anyway this is only one passage that indicates there are more than one person in the one Godhead. God breathed His spirit over the waters in Genesis. He communicates to us humans through His Word (incarnate Son of God). There are many passages that suggest the Trinity and of course the New Testament cemented this for all time.

StMarkEofE
 
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exoflare:
Do you really think you’re fooling anybody here? (besides maybe other Muslims) I’m not the only one who can see how you try to use the words “God” (Allah) and “Father” interchangeably to try and throw everybody off. Get serious or quit wasting everybody’s time.
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o, i’m very serious exoflare. no christian in the world could ever explain the doctrine of the trinity in a way that makes sense. and that’s a fact. and my challenge still stands for anyone on here who thinks they can do so. 😉
 
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r.gonzales:
o, i’m very serious exoflare. no christian in the world could ever explain the doctrine of the trinity in a way that makes sense. and that’s a fact. and my challenge still stands for anyone on here who thinks they can do so. 😉
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What is it with Muslims and subjective challenges?.. “Write one sura ‘like’ the Quran (by my own arbitrary standard)”… “Explain the trinity in a way that ‘makes sense’ (so I can just keep saying that it doesn’t)”

Like I said, this triumphalist garbage isn’t fooling anybody. Objective readers of this forum will see through all your smoke and mirrors, and the ones who agree with you would have done so no matter what. Nothing has changed.
 
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