Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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So now we’re back to politics yet again. :mad::mad:

Which is some peoples’ real religion. :mad::mad::mad:

This thread is titled “Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching.”
 
Originally Posted by Suudy
No, but it demonstrates the flaw in reasoning used earlier. Apply that principle you outlined to any other coverage the Church finds evil, such as abortion, and it is apparent it is flawed. For example, the state of Washington has considered a bill to mandate abortion coverage. If it were passed, would your reasoning be the same for Catholic institutions in WA?
Yes, my reasoning would be the same: It’s a government mandate made across the board for everyone. I still want to know why paying one’s taxes (which also provides ABCs benefits) is different than this HHS mandate. They’re both the same. They both provide services that in it include ABCs. So why are some people choosing to plan to get around the HHS mandate but they think it’s ok to continue paying taxes. The two senarios are the same.
 
Yes, my reasoning would be the same: It’s a government mandate made across the board for everyone. I still want to know why paying one’s taxes (which also provides ABCs benefits) is different than this HHS mandate. They’re both the same. They both provide services that in it include ABCs. So why are some people choosing to plan to get around the HHS mandate but they think it’s ok to continue paying taxes. The two senarios are the same.
Of course they’re the same. What does it matter which principles of one’s faith or conscience are violated, so long as they are violated for “the greater good™”

What would the “proportionate reason” be for remote material cooperation of evil in that case?

Unfortunately, paying taxes and the HHS madate are NOT the same.
 
Employment is a service? What do you mean here? We are talking about employment, not services provided.
Employees provide a service to employers by filling jobs. But what I meant is what I said.
  1. Should Catholics only employee Catholics? 2) Should Catholic colleges only educate Catholics? 3) Should Catholics only serve Catholics? I’m not sure what your confusion was. 🤷
 
Yes, my reasoning would be the same: It’s a government mandate made across the board for everyone. I still want to know why paying one’s taxes (which also provides ABCs benefits) is different than this HHS mandate. They’re both the same. They both provide services that in it include ABCs. So why are some people choosing to plan to get around the HHS mandate but they think it’s ok to continue paying taxes. The two senarios are the same.
Rence, I thank you, a faithful practicing Catholic, for your answer and for answering for the both of us. 👍 God bless you and peace. A blessed Advent and Christmas season to you.
 
I assume you’re using “charity” to mean “giving people the benefit of the doubt” (since you obviously don’t mean it in the sense of “willing what’s best for another,” since rebuking sinners and apologists for sin is consistent with charity in a way deferring to them isn’t). What doubt is there, though? The woman appeared before Congress to bemoan that she was going broke buying contraception to sleep around, and to demand that taxpayers fund her.

Charity doesn’t oblige us to believe nonsense. She’s a reprobate, and this aspect of the healthcare law is intended to promote degeneracy.
I think that when CMatt25 uses the word “charity”, he means it in the way that it is used by the Forum Moderators:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852

I, too, believe that your pejoratives “degenerate” and also “reprobate” fall into the category of “uncharitable”. (Wasn’t Rush Limbaugh castigated by the public for calling Ms. Fluke a “slut”?) Justifying your attack by saying it is a way to “rebuk[e] sinners” is blasphemous. It most certainly is not a “spiritual work of mercy” in the fashion in which you are using it. You have no way of knowing who is, or who is not, a sinner in God’s eyes. God bless.
 
Then, as a practicing Catholic, I assume you are on board with the Pope’s newest Motu Proprio, just released:

News Article: catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=16408

The Motu Proprio itself: blackbiretta.blogspot.com/2012/12/de-caritate-ministranda.html

Please note the “Dispositive Part” where all the practical details of administration are.
I love that this has gone to the top so to speak. Unfortunately, we’ll still have Catholics/catholic organizations ignoring it.
 
So now we’re back to politics yet again. :mad::mad:

Which is some peoples’ real religion. :mad::mad::mad:

This thread is titled “Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching.”
What is specifically just politics? I honestly think it is hard to separate the two (religion and politics) wrt this topic. The reason why this is even an issue is because of a political decision on the part of the president.
 
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I think that when CMatt25 uses the word “charity”, he means it in the way that it is used by the Forum Moderators:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852

I, too, believe that your pejoratives “degenerate” and also “reprobate” fall into the category of “uncharitable”. (Wasn’t Rush Limbaugh castigated by the public for calling Ms. Fluke a “slut”?) Justifying your attack by saying it is a way to “rebuk[e] sinners” is blasphemous. It most certainly is not a “spiritual work of mercy” in the fashion in which you are using it. You have no way of knowing who is, or who is not, a sinner in God’s eyes. God bless.
What makes their use lack charity? Promoting contraception and illicit sexual activity is evil. No one has claimed to judge any person’s soul, but actions and words certainly must be judged.
 
What is specifically just politics? I honestly think it is hard to separate the two (religion and politics) wrt this topic. The reason why this is even an issue is because of a political decision on the part of the president.
I know. That’s the enormous problem with American Catholics. For them, politics = religion and religion = politics. But they’re WRONG.

The Church is bigger than American politics. It existed before American politics. American politics are not what defines it. Far from it.
 
Employees provide a service to employers by filling jobs. But what I meant is what I said.
  1. Should Catholics only employee Catholics? 2) Should Catholic colleges only educate Catholics? 3) Should Catholics only serve Catholics? I’m not sure what your confusion was. 🤷
This is precisely what they would have to do in order to qualify for an exemption from the HHS mandate as a religious organization. The HHS, which has taken it upon itself to decide what constitutes religion, says they must serve only Catholics in order to be exempt from the mandate. But serving only Catholics would be a violation of Catholic moral principles!

As an aside, here is an article about Atlas Medical which provides primary care on a fee for service basis, and accepts no insurance. It seems to work well:
businessweek.com/printer/articles/84322-is-concierge-medicine-the-future-of-health-care
 
This is precisely what they would have to do in order to qualify for an exemption from the HHS mandate as a religious organization. The HHS, which has taken it upon itself to decide what constitutes religion, says they must serve only Catholics in order to be exempt from the mandate. But serving only Catholics would be a violation of Catholic moral principles!

As an aside, here is an article about Atlas Medical which provides primary care on a fee for service basis, and accepts no insurance. It seems to work well:
businessweek.com/printer/articles/84322-is-concierge-medicine-the-future-of-health-care
I"m still trying to figure out why serving only Catholics would be a violation of moral principles.
a) there was a time when all of Europe was at least nominally Catholic. What did we do then?
b) there are about as many Catholics that need evangelizing as non-Catholics. 80% of Catholics don’t even bother to go to weekly mass. Why aren’t they worth evangelizing if we’re supposed to be evangelizing?
c) there are no poor Catholics? I doubt that.
 
I"m still trying to figure out why serving only Catholics would be a violation of moral principles.
a) there was a time when all of Europe was at least nominally Catholic. What did we do then?
b) there are about as many Catholics that need evangelizing as non-Catholics. 80% of Catholics don’t even bother to go to weekly mass. Why aren’t they worth evangelizing if we’re supposed to be evangelizing?
c) there are no poor Catholics? I doubt that.
To pracitice their religon, Catholic institutions are bound to practice the spiritual and corporal works of mercy; feed the poor, shelter the homeless, help the sick. They simply won’t turn away people because they aren’t Catholic. A food kitchen only for Catholics would have to turn away a lot of hungry people.
 
To pracitice their religon, Catholic institutions are bound to practice the spiritual and corporal works of mercy; feed the poor, shelter the homeless, help the sick. They simply won’t turn away people because they aren’t Catholic. A food kitchen only for Catholics would have to turn away a lot of hungry people.
Then the food kitchen will have limited options:
a) shut down.
b) go secular.
c) pay enormous fines and put the parent organization (diocese, religious order, etc) at risk of paying enormous fines.

Perhaps we shouldn’t be running food kitchens & food banks anymore. There are plenty of ways to serve and they don’t have to involve taking government money.

This also doesn’t answer my questions. What did people do when all of Europe was at least nominally Catholic? Did they violate those principles then?
 
Then the food kitchen will have limited options:
a) shut down.
b) go secular.
c) pay enormous fines and put the parent organization (diocese, religious order, etc) at risk of paying enormous fines.

Perhaps we shouldn’t be running food kitchens & food banks anymore. There are plenty of ways to serve and they don’t have to involve taking government money.

This also doesn’t answer my questions. What did people do when all of Europe was at least nominally Catholic? Did they violate those principles then?
When the whole of Europe was Catholic, of course they served mostly Catholics, there weren’t a lot of other religions around. I don’t think they turned anyone away, regardless of religion. The Church has always been in the business of providing for the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. It’s part of Catholicism.

But just to address your other comment, government money has nothing to do with it. If the Church didn’t operate food kitchens, it would still practice the corporal works of mercy, perhaps by having parishes provide food. But if parishes provide food for non-Catholics, they would still be in violation of the HHS mandate, which would then consider the parish a non-religious entity.

The mandate doesn’t just apply to institutions which accept government money. It applies to ALL employers regardless of federal funding or no federal funding. Any employer who finds its provision unconscienable will either have to pay fines or go out of business or reject his beliefs.
 
When the whole of Europe was Catholic, of course they served mostly Catholics, there weren’t a lot of other religions around. I don’t think they turned anyone away, regardless of religion. The Church has always been in the business of providing for the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. It’s part of Catholicism.

But just to address your other comment, government money has nothing to do with it. If the Church didn’t operate food kitchens, it would still practice the corporal works of mercy, perhaps by having parishes provide food. But if parishes provide food for non-Catholics, they would still be in violation of the HHS mandate, which would then consider the parish a non-religious entity.

The mandate doesn’t just apply to institutions which accept government money. It applies to ALL employers regardless of federal funding or no federal funding. Any employer who finds its provision unconscienable will either have to pay fines or go out of business or reject his beliefs.
Food banks and soup kitchens are recent inventions and there is no requirement that we have them. We need to shut all this stuff down and find other ways of fulfilling this.

I also question the assumption that we have to go outside the Catholic community to do these things, which was the reason I asked you the question. I don’t think we do. I think it’s perfectly possible to do these things in the context of the Catholic community.
 
Food banks and soup kitchens are recent inventions and there is no requirement that we have them. We need to shut all this stuff down and find other ways of fulfilling this.
I don’t think that they are recent inventions. Monasteries in the middles ages served the poor; that’s the equivalent of a food kitchen.

But fine, if we shut down all our food kitchens, schools, hospitals, free clinics, adoption agencies, homeless shelters, counseling centers, does such a retreat into Catholic isolationism help or hurt society?

I suspect the government would like it if we did shut down everything and hand it all over to them. But that wasn’t Christ’s command.
 
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