Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

[CaptFun]

Right. And you and what army are going to put all this together? CaptFun. Reality check:

A little over 20% of the country says they’re Catholic. Of that 20%, only about 20% show up at mass weekly. 20% of 20% is 4%. Do you even realize this?

10% of the population says it’s ex-Catholic.

“Catholic” statistics for birth control, abortion, divorce and other social behaviors are roughly the same as the general population. Wake up.

I wasn’t speaking of numbers at all iloveangels.

I disagreed with the Government making Catholic Universities and Hospitals violating their principles due to threats against them. Putting what together? Some schools are fighting this without my help. Gonzaga looks to have compromised and I guessed that under Fr. Spitzer they might not have.

SINCE they have decided upon such a compromise … are all the DETAILS of the compromise worked out? I noticed that cigarettes are legal yet had warnings posted all over them … probably in opposition to the wishes of the manufacturers who’d probably
rather have things like "True tobacco flavor … " or something written on their product.

Thanks for putting “Catholic” in quotes. There are distinctions. Anyone baptised a Catholic is one (that’s a definition). THEN there are Catholics who try to live the faith.
AND “Catholics” who relate to it as an identity and claim to be Catholic but feel no
obligations toward the Church or its teachings. Perhaps this last group is who you are calling my attention to.

Numbers don’t matter so much in the FINAL assessment. When Jesus speaks of the MANY who will choose the broad road that doesn’t lead to salvation and the FEW that find the narrow door … it’s a warning that goes opposite of the idea of a Catholic opinion poll that has equal access to the keys of the Church’s teaching office and unlocks any forbidden door it pleases.

Contraception is not the issue here either. It is the state coercing a religious body to violate its own teachings under threats of government action.

Didn’t mean to ruin your day, and I don’t know or care (personally) if you happen to use, or have used or intend to use the kind of product I allude to here.

My suggestion is semi-humorous and meant to unmask a double standard regarding which legal products government is pushing and which it coerces into making announcement on its (legal but controversial) products due to public health concerns.

There ARE public health concerns relating to artificial birth control products that could
be more immediately deadly than cigarettes actually. As I noted. The “safe sex” canard for one if an infected person becomes active again and threatens the life of a partner because he thought he was being “safe”.

And my suggestion was only for those products sold on Catholic ground. If a Catholic University can have entrance exams and boards of people to determine who gets into their school … why not similarly difficult levels of bureaucracy to maneuver for those who’d INSIST on buying their artificial contraceptives (including abortificients as it stands now) on a Catholic Campus or Hospital … and maybe sue if they can’t get their way.

If I’ve overstated this … how? HERE are the mandates. HOW did anyone deal with
“problem” in the past … when most Catholic Campuses and Hospitals did not sell these items … and even if they WERE sold in some little nook like a pharmacy, the individual
school or hospital wasn’t billed for it against their will.

I hope the suits against the HHS mandate are all successful. We may disagree on that.

 

[Digitonomy]

Which countries?

I am trying to dig this up, but am having some trouble. In some countries I suppose the schools would not be culpable because the healthcare is provided by the state, rather than privately as we have in the US.

I did come across this chart about domestic insurance coverage from the National Women’s Law Center, which must be taken with a grain of salt given the source, but I suspect a portion of it is still true:

Sampling of Catholic-Affiliated Institutions that Provide Contraceptive Coverage

I also found this from Franciscan University, which implies that Franciscan may be required to offer its students or employees health insurance under Austrian law, but that’s just a guess, and I don’t know what other requirements may be present regulating the features of such plans:

Those who study for a semester in Austria while students at Franciscan will be covered under a different plan—contact the Study Abroad Director for further information. Students will need to waive this plan to avoid being charged for it automatically.

 

[iloveangels]

I am trying to dig this up, but am having some trouble. In some countries I suppose the schools would not be culpable because the healthcare is provided by the state, rather than privately as we have in the US.

I did come across this chart about domestic insurance coverage from the National Women’s Law Center, which must be taken with a grain of salt given the source, but I suspect a portion of it is still true:

Sampling of Catholic-Affiliated Institutions that Provide Contraceptive Coverage

I also found this from Franciscan University, which implies that Franciscan may be required to offer its students or employees health insurance under Austrian law, but that’s just a guess, and I don’t know what other requirements may be present regulating the features of such plans:

Yes, this has been going on all over some big “Catholic” universities, and you’ll find it in some “Catholic” hospitals as well. Many of them are not going to change of their own accord either. Whether the bishops will call them on it, or disaffiliate with them over it, is an open question. This is where the “we will not comply” business is at its most acute. Both bishops and institutions are going to have to come clean about exactly what this arrangement between diocese and university and hospital is, or they’re going to get called on it.

Another very real problem for each bishop is his own diocesan organizations. Most diocesan organizations, K-12 schools and so on, have not been offering contraception in their insurance plans, as there are self-insured plans out there that they’ve been using. However, some of these things won’t be able to get an exemption from Obamacare, so some of them are going to have to figure out what to do next, or pay mega-big-fines.

PS. There have been some Catholic universities that have not covered these things in their insurance plans. I believe that Franciscan University is one of them.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The answer to all of this is MAKE the government put people in jail and put so many in jail that eventually the administration can not take the political heat.

Look–if Catholics died in the Roman coliseums because they would not deny their Lord Jesus–then it’s time to step up and say we won’t sin for the government by providing contraception coverage in health care policies–put us in jail–kill us–take over the hospitals–do whatever you want to do government but we WILL NOT bend!

The only way to beat the strong is to be stronger!

If the Roman Empire can be beat by the love of Christ–the American Empire can be beat by the love of Christ!

 

[iloveangels]

I wasn’t speaking of numbers at all iloveangels.

…

I know. You’re prescribing for the whole country, regardless of the fact that 75% of the country isn’t Catholic and hasn’t any intention of becoming Catholic.

 

[iloveangels]

The answer to all of this is MAKE the government put people in jail and put so many in jail that eventually the administration can not take the political heat.

Look–if Catholics died in the Roman coliseums because they would not deny their Lord Jesus–then it’s time to step up and say we won’t sin for the government by providing contraception coverage in health care policies–put us in jail–kill us–take over the hospitals–do whatever you want to do government but we WILL NOT bend!

The only way to beat the strong is to be stronger!

If the Roman Empire can be beat by the love of Christ–the American Empire can be beat by the love of Christ!

Jerry, this is very nice big bravado, but this is not how it works. The IRS will take it out of withholding, which they collect regardless of Obamacare. Besides, if you check the numbers I put in above, you’ll see how few committed Catholics there really are in this country. I suspect that people who can’t be bothered to show up for 45 minutes a week wouldn’t volunteer to go to jail for this, even if that were the likely outcome.

 

[JimG]

The answer to all of this is MAKE the government put people in jail and put so many in jail that eventually the administration can not take the political heat.

Look–if Catholics died in the Roman coliseums because they would not deny their Lord Jesus–then it’s time to step up and say we won’t sin for the government by providing contraception coverage in health care policies–put us in jail–kill us–take over the hospitals–do whatever you want to do government but we WILL NOT bend!

The only way to beat the strong is to be stronger!

If the Roman Empire can be beat by the love of Christ–the American Empire can be beat by the love of Christ!

If people can devote as much energy to demonstrating in favor of their religious liberty as in the past they did against Nixon, for example, during the Vietnam War, they can change things. Of course, I don’t expect OWS to be agitating for freedom of religion!

It’s true, Catholics are a minority. Can the government throw us all in jail?
Maybe it can.

 

[iloveangels]

If people can devote as much energy to demonstrating in favor of their religious liberty as in the past they did against Nixon, for example, during the Vietnam War, they can change things. Of course, I don’t expect OWS to be agitating for freedom of religion!

It’s true, Catholics are a minority. Can the government throw us all in jail?
Maybe it can.

I think it can. But I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen. And I don’t think you’d get more than a handful of Catholics willing to try it either.

That was my point in putting all those statistics in here. Only about 20% of Catholics can be bothered to show up at mass for 45 mins per week. LOL. The last time you had a bible or catechism class at your parish that lasted longer than 6 or 8 weeks (if you’ve ever had one!) how many people showed up and kept coming?

 

[JimG]

I think it can. But I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen. And I don’t think you’d get more than a handful of Catholics willing to try it either.

I agree. But I would like to see Jerry-Jet’s action program at least tried.

 

[iloveangels]

I agree. But I would like to see Jerry-Jet’s action program at least tried.

Have at it, if you want. But don’t be surprised when you’re out there alone.

The bishops have to deal with the mess at these institutions before I’m going to get too excited about this.
The bishops say they won’t comply. I want to see that.

 

[JimG]

Have at it, if you want. But don’t be surprised when you’re out there alone.

The bishops have to deal with the mess at these institutions before I’m going to get too excited about this.
The bishops say they won’t comply. I want to see that.

Well yes, I think the bishops should close down institutions rather than pay fines or comply. But the government won’t like the economic effects of that either. More unemployment, more unemployment claims. And parents won’t like it if Bishops shut down school systems. In some cities the only hospitals are at least nominally Catholic. Those ought to shut down too. Private employers ought to shut down rather than comply with the mandate.

But you’re probably right. Catholics will go out with a whimper, not a bang.

 

[iloveangels]

Well yes, I think the bishops should close down institutions rather than pay fines or comply.

Precisely which institutions are you referring to? The diocesan ones or the big universities/hospitals? They’re very different.

But the government won’t like the economic effects of that either. More unemployment, more unemployment claims.

The government cares less about this than you probably think. For one thing, the government really doesn’t think all these hospitals and universities are going to shut down. I don’t either. What their standing with the bishops is going to end up being, I don’t know either. THAT will be interesting to see.

And parents won’t like it if Bishops shut down school systems.

You’re right, they’ll be really angry. The big question is what will the bishops do? Will they:

1. re-organize so that teachers and clients are primarily Catholic and get the exemption?
2. shut them down?
3. or something else?

In some cities the only hospitals are at least nominally Catholic. Those ought to shut down too. Private employers ought to shut down rather than comply with the mandate.

What’s the likelihood of these shutting down, do you think? (Catholic hospitals, Catholic universities and private businesses owned by Catholics)

But you’re probably right. Catholics will go out with a whimper, not a bang.

I’m not sure how this is going to turn out yet, myself. On a national level, yes, of course, we’re only a few percent really. But what will this do to the Church, inside the Church? That’s the real question.

 

[JimG]

I don’t know how it’s going to turn out. I think that every institution and every business with an owner or a management with moral objections to the mandate ought to shut down rather than comply.

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t know how it’s going to turn out. I think that every institution and every business with an owner or a management with moral objections to the mandate ought to shut down rather than comply.

That’s not what I asked. “Ought” and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The government can’t MAKE anybody comply–if they want to steal money through the IRS then they can certainly do it but they can’t MAKE anybody do anything they will not do.

The people who say they can are really saying–shut up and take it!

What’s the government going to do–keep beating up people until they MAKE them comply?

What do you think the pictures will look like when poor people are denied care and when other hospitals can’t provide all the care needed?

It’s called let’s play stupid–the side that can take stupidity to the furthest end will win!

People died in the Civil war to end slavery–people died in world War II to end the genocide of the Jews–sometimes things worth standing for carry a price.

The real question is this: would Jesus comply?

 

[iloveangels]

The government can’t MAKE anybody comply–if they want to steal money through the IRS then they can certainly do it but they can’t MAKE anybody do anything they will not do.

The people who say they can are really saying–shut up and take it!

What’s the government going to do–keep beating up people until they MAKE them comply?

What do you think the pictures will look like when poor people are denied care and when other hospitals can’t provide all the care needed?

It’s called let’s play stupid–the side that can take stupidity to the furthest end will win!

People died in the Civil war to end slavery–people died in world War II to end the genocide of the Jews–sometimes things worth standing for carry a price.

The real question is this: would Jesus comply?

Jesus wouldn’t have gotten himself into this mess in the first place.

For people who don’t comply with the law, they will pay a fine (okay, tax). Anyway, it will come out of their withholding. I’m going to assume that you know what withholding is. They won’t have a choice in the matter. It will simply be charged to them. They can’t not pay it.

For large institutions and so on, the government doesn’t have to wait a whole year. The government will know pretty quickly if they’re trying not to pay. It’d be expensive and stupid if it came to this. Pray that this doesn’t happen because it won’t help because we are so leveraged out with inconsistencies. It’ll only make matters worse.

 

[JimG]

Jesus wouldn’t have gotten himself into this mess in the first place.

For people who don’t comply with the law, they will pay a fine (okay, tax). Anyway, it will come out of their withholding. I’m going to assume that you know what withholding is. They won’t have a choice in the matter. It will simply be charged to them. They can’t not pay it.

For large institutions and so on, the government doesn’t have to wait a whole year. The government will know pretty quickly if they’re trying not to pay. It’d be expensive and stupid if it came to this. Pray that this doesn’t happen because it won’t help because we are so leveraged out with inconsistencies. It’ll only make matters worse.

Ideally, the government won’t have to wait to know if an institution is trying not to pay or not to comply. It should announce right up front that it will not pay and will not comply, and will not turn the institution over to others. Shut it down. Is this what the government wants? Let them have it. Let them own it. (Not the institution, but the mess created by the wholesale closing of Catholic institutions mandated by government edict.)

 

[Dawnia]

For people who don’t comply with the law, they will pay a fine (okay, tax). Anyway, it will come out of their withholding. I’m going to assume that you know what withholding is. They won’t have a choice in the matter. It will simply be charged to them. They can’t not pay it.

What do you mean they will withhold it from your pay? If someone doesn’t pay the fine/tax, there are no collection options in the law. That is one of the reasons why SCOTUS deemed it a tax & not a penalty.

The most they could do is take it from any refund you might be owed, but they cannot take it out of your paycheck.

 

[iloveangels]

What do you mean they will withhold it from your pay? If someone doesn’t pay the fine/tax, there are no collection options in the law. That is one of the reasons why SCOTUS deemed it a tax & not a penalty.

The most they could do is take it from any refund you might be owed, but they cannot take it out of your paycheck.

Even if they can’t garnishee you for it, I’m pretty sure they can fine you for it from the IRS like unpaid taxes. It’s sort of the like the case where you don’t put in enough dependents on the W2 form and then you owe them back taxes. You have to pay up. This sort of thing happens now and then to small business owners too. You owe what you owe.

 

[JimG]

Even if they can’t garnishee you for it, I’m pretty sure they can fine you for it from the IRS like unpaid taxes. It’s sort of the like the case where you don’t put in enough dependents on the W2 form and then you owe them back taxes. You have to pay up. This sort of thing happens now and then to small business owners too. You owe what you owe.

And the IRS, which will be the enforcement agency here, if unable to seize earnings or assets, will be able to seize property or anything of value that a person or institution owns.

Just consider yourself fortunate if you do not wind up in a detention camp or re-education facility for Catholics, before the decade is out, sort of like the Japanese-American camps during WW-II.