Good passages in the Book of Mormon

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PaulDupre said:
How is it that we ex-Mormons know all about this but the TBMs do not?

'Tis a puzzlement. :hmmm:
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Plenty of us know, but we also know that Joseph Smith showed little or no interest in them.
The truth of the Book of Mormon is enough for us to know that Joseph Smith was indeed called of God. Not to mention (for those of us who enjoy further research than the book itself) the number of things in the book that are correct, despite there being no knowledge about those things available to anyone in Joseph Smith’s time, let alone Joseph Smith himself, from any source other than a true ancient record.
Writing histories on plates, anyone?
Use of cement in ancient mesoamerica?
Names and language stuctures?
 
Why didn’t Christ and His apostles reveal this at His fulfilled time?

Joseph Smith came with a new story, a new calling, a new kind of god men…premortals fully cognizant…who had free will of their own …why didn’t anyone ever know of this until Joseph Smith?

Why did he have to put on glasses when Christ alone is all Light…the Holy Spirit is the Light, not Joseph Smith.
 
Plenty of us know, but we also know that Joseph Smith showed little or no interest in them.
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Joseph Smith never preached from the Book of Mormon, except in describing “Zelph” the Lamanite.

Plots from Shakespeare, Clavigero, Snorre Sturlason, Geoffrey of Monmouth, the Deuterocanon, and many other sources? Passages lifted in their entirety from the Bible?

Ruins on Greenland?
 
Jerusha said:
Joseph Smith never preached from the Book of Mormon, except in describing “Zelph” the Lamanite.

Plots from Shakespeare, Clavigero, Snorre Sturlason, the Deuterocanon, and many other sources? Passages lifted in their entirety from the Bible?

Ruins on Greenland?
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Ruins on Greenland? What??
 
Snorre Sturlason’s opus, omacl.org/Heimskringla/ contains some stories, including Eric the Red (exiled from Iceland for murder) which parallel some of the story of the Book of Mormon. It is a very good read, although LONG.

Paradoxically, as I read through it, I found many parallels between the first half and the BoM. Went dry about half-way through. I only later discovered that the second half was not yet available in English at the time.
 
KathleenGee said:
Joseph Smith came with a new story, a new calling, a new kind of god men…premortals fully cognizant…who had free will of their own …why didn’t anyone ever know of this until Joseph Smith?
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They did, but as the church grew, and the Apostled died, these ideas did not sit well with existing (and emerging) theologies from the Jewish and Greek ideas.
Jerusha said:
Snorre Sturlason’s opus, omacl.org/Heimskringla/ contains some stories, including Eric the Red (exiled from Iceland for murder) which parallel some of the story of the Book of Mormon. It is a very good read, although LONG.
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so you feel that parallels between Jesus and Horus (Egyptian sun god) detract from the truth of The Bible and of His divine mission?
How about links and obvious similarities between The Bible and Greek Mythology?
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
They did, but as the church grew, and the Apostled died, these ideas did not sit well with existing (and emerging) theologies from the Jewish and Greek ideas.so you feel that parallels between Jesus and Horus (Egyptian sun god) detract from the truth of The Bible and of His divine mission?
How about links and obvious similarities between The Bible and Greek Mythology?
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Actually no, the Apostles ordained Bishops and Church contined as it has for 2000 years in unbroken Apostolic Sucession. The writtings exist from 62-AD foward through 100 with Ignatius of Antioch etc etc etc…till today!

Existing theology of Egypt or Babylon have “zip” to do with the Christian Church in relation to a Sun God. Its been well studied and documented for centuries. GK Chesterton, off the top of my head wrote on this.

Of course you would agree with Parker, Joe Smith “never” believed in a “CREED”. In fact he was stated as saying “We have NO Creed” How could you possibly disagree. All it indicates about Joe Smith is his distain for the Apostolic Church which was self-evident as a learned behavior which he never was able to overcome, and crippled him as a young adult. What you choose to view as some divine “private” revelation could be nothing more then illusion in truth. How would we know, and is in fact why Private Revelation is exactly that in the Apostolic Church. However it could never change the deposit of faith which Joe Smiths so obviously did.

A self-proclaimed prophet who was killed during the course of committing a “felony” and with a gun in his hand. Come, come now. At last reality that is a known applies to Joe Smith.

Love his translations. “Turn the other cheek” completely “lost” the original meaning by Christ

Now you believe the Church went into apostasy at some point. But you do not know “when”. Thus a circular argument built on a strawman. You have as much proof of this as the horse’s and cattle in America in 4-AD.

To boot a claim of a “private revelation” with “NO” proof to confirm it.

And we think LDS and Mormans are good honorable people also. 🤷

Lets look at that “Turn the other Cheek” trans. of Joe Smith, I just love that one. 👍

So did the new “divine utterance” come? Is this the 4th year? What was it? Could you share it? 🤷
 
@ Gary-- I enjoy the teamwork.

Gilgamesh? Larger culture documenting some kind of local catastrophic flood.

Pandora’s Box? Acknowledged. Definitely Jewish to Greek.

Akhenaten’s brief Egyptian monotheistic revolution? Either spontaneous or Jewish to Egyptian.

From this we can surmise either Jewish influence on the cultures around them, or a broader culture which influenced all. So what?

Now, back to the massive 1777-1830 influences on the Book of Mormon.
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
I’m intrigued as to where and how you (collectively) believe Joseph Smith plagarised from the bible and other sources when evidence and accounts indicate he didn’t have access to many (if any) of the works and titles suggested, and never used another text, even noes, at any point during translation.
This probably needs a thread to itself…
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About 27,000 words in the BOM were taken from the 1611 KJV.

Here’s an article about Mormonism that every Catholic should read – from the Roman Theological Forum, written by theologian and professor Father Brian Harrison of Australia.

rtforum.org/lt/lt96.html - This is Part II. Part I is /lt95.html.
 
Fact is, Joseph Smith included many things in the Book of Mormon which were completely unknown to anyone in his era, but the facts were discovered years later; writing on plates such as the ones he translated from being just one such example. Things which Jospeh Smith could not have known were correct (because nobody then, or for a long time after publication, knew about them) and therefore anyone trying to create a hoax would never include such guesses. Yet he did, and has been shown to be correct by future archaeology and studies.
 
Mormon Cultist…

What are the Greek and Jewish sources that do not sit well…with Smith’s ideas?..Please clarify…

You are giving us a new story in regards to the Great Apostasy and when it happened…a new story now…
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
Fact is, Joseph Smith included** many things** in the Book of Mormon which were completely unknown to anyone in his era, but the facts were discovered years later; writing on plates such as the ones he translated from being just one such example. Things which Jospeh Smith could not have known were correct (because nobody then, or for a long time after publication, knew about them) and therefore anyone trying to create a hoax would never include such guesses. Yet he did, and has been shown to be correct by future archaeology and studies.
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List three
 
Mormon_Cultist said:
Fact is, Joseph Smith included many things in the Book of Mormon which were completely unknown to anyone in his era, but the facts were discovered years later; writing on plates such as the ones he translated from being just one such example. Things which Jospeh Smith could not have known were correct (because nobody then, or for a long time after publication, knew about them) and therefore anyone trying to create a hoax would never include such guesses. Yet he did, and has been shown to be correct by future archaeology and studies.
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Really? Which things? The bees? The elephants? Steel? Reformed Egyptian? Entire civilizations that had zero contact with any actual civilizations of the time and left no trace of their existence except some supposed golden plates? The horses?
Yeah. That’s why anyone outside of Mormon circles considers the Book of Mormon a complete and utter forgery, with absolutely zero historical and archaeological value whatsoever. Have we found the weapons and armor of the Stripling warriors yet?

I’ll be holding my breath.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Now you believe the Church went into apostasy at some point. But you do not know “when”.
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There is no single date at which suddenly the whole early church turned completely apostate, but there are many doctrines and practises that do not fit well with the Biblical teachings of Christ and His apostles (The Trinity, Prophets, revelation) in addition to scriptural prophecies that an apostasy was foretold.
Stephen168 said:
List three
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theidler said:
Really? Which things? The bees? The elephants? Steel? Reformed Egyptian? Entire civilizations that had zero contact with any actual civilizations of the time and left no trace of their existence except some supposed golden plates? The horses?
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Well, where to begin.
Writing on plates in the ancient world: this is something that Joseph Smith was ridiculed for suggestion when he first claimed to have found this record. It was completely unknown even to scholars in his day, yet now is known to have been a practise among the Jews and other nations living in the regions round about with who they had contact and trade.
(jefflindsay.com/LDSMetal.shtml)

While on the subject of the plates, their manner of concealment: buried in a stone box and sealed up. “No such records were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages” [M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, the Book of Mormon: Is It from God? (New York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), p. 11], yet since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls this idea has found much more prominence as an established practise.
(jefflindsay.com/bme10.shtml)

And still on the subject of the plates, how about the use of metal: steel as you pointed out. Are we to apply the same principle to the Old Testament also, therefore it must be found to be false due to references to steel in 2 Sam. 22:35 (which refers to a steel bow, perhaps similar to the one Nephi had), Psalms 18:34, Job 20:24, and Jeremiah 15:12? “It seems evident that by the beginning of the tenth century B.C. blacksmiths were intentionally steeling iron” [Robert Maddin, James D. Muhly, and Tamara S. Wheeler, “How the Iron Age Began,” Scientific American 237/4 (October 1977): 127].
(jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_metals.shtml)

Well, that’s three; but let’s have a look at what else there is.

Also right at the start of The Book of Mormon, the story of a journey through the Arabian peninsula. In Joseph Smith’s day, in upstate New York, little was known about this area; a prime candidate to set a hoax, clearly, as nobody would be able to pick up on it with proper evidence to the contrary. Because what was known was that this area is primarily desert, Joseph Smith was ridiculed for his suggestions that a trip cold be made such as is described, especially through fertile valley and areas with plentiful wildlife to hunt. With so little practical, first-hand evidence available, then, a perfect setting for a con; why, then, are scholars now discussing which of a number of candidates are most likely for the areas described? How could Joseph Smith possibly have hit the nail right on the head describing correct directions (even a route used by people in the area at the time), descriptions of specific places and even a correct place name of a burial place (Nahom).
“By describing in such precise detail a fertile Arabian coastal location, as well as the route to get there from Jerusalem (complete with directions and even a place-name en route), Joseph Smith put his prophetic credibility very much on the line. Could this young, untraveled farmer in rural New York somehow have known about a fertile site on the coast of Arabia? Could a map or some writing other than the Nephite record have been a source for him? The answer is a clear no. Long after the 1830 publication of the Book of Mormon, maps of Arabia continued to show the eastern coastline and interior as unknown, unexplored territory. In fact, until the advent of satellite mapping in recent decades, even quite modern maps have misplaced toponyms and ignored or distorted major features of the terrain.” [In the Footsteps of Lehi (p29) by Warren P. Aston and Michaela K. Aston (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Comp., 1994)]

You mention Reformed Egyptian: another Common complaint against Joseph Smith’s claims. The fact is that there are known scripts that can very well be described as Reformed Egyptian: including forms called Demotic and Hieratic. Also well known is writing in one language but utilising characters of another in some way;
“We have, in fact, an ancient illustration that comes remarkably close to the Book of Mormon itself. Papyrus Amherst 63, a text from the second century B.C., seems to offer something very much like “reformed Egyptian.” It is a papyrus scroll that contains Aramaic texts written in a demotic Egyptian script. (Aramaic is a language closely related to Hebrew. of the Old Testament book of Daniel is written in Aramaic, and it was the spoken language of Jesus and his apostles.” [Daniel C. Peterson in Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 5, 1993, pp. 43-45 (available online)].
Another common claim is that the Egyptians were old enemies of the Jews, therefore they would never use Egyptian language in any way. Clearly it is true now that the Jews do not use any form of Egyptian: but this is no surprise given that the language is now dead. However it can be easily seen that they have translated the Bible into the languages of their “historic enemies” the Arabs, Greeks and Aramaeans.
(jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml#egyptian)
 
Okay, let me pose one request, Mormon_Cultist. Give me one neutral source, one source that is not Jeff Lindsay or a BYU scholar, to prove the truth of, well, anything you just said. Looking to find truth within an organization is easy to find, especially in the Mormon world where you are trained from a Sunbeam for the “mental gymnastics” to keep the faith.

Here specifically are some things I’d love for you to find a neutral, non-Mormon source for proving:
  1. The translation of the scrolls from Abraham (which has been proven since 1966 to be a complete and total fabrication)
  2. Archeological evidence, even so much as one “senine” coin, proving the evidence of the societies of the Book of Mormon
  3. The DNA evidence that proves that even one member of the indigenous people of the American continent had one drop of Jewish blood (instead of the overwhelming evidence that shows that the DNA was mongoloid (Asian) in origin)
These hot-button issues are just a handful of small evidences that simply cannot be proven without a huge, Olympic-sized event of mental gymnastics.

The truth is that all of your arguing is not going to take those of us away who have met the true God, who have seen His body and blood, soul and divinity which lives in the blessed sacrament at the Catholic altars of the world. We have consumed Him, not a piece of bread and cup of water “in memory” of Him. We have suffered His passion with him and pray daily for the conversion of souls like yours who have been deceived.

You ask us to believe Joseph Smith. We ask you to believe the son of the Almighty God, when he said “Take and eat ye all of this, FOR THIS IS MY BODY.” You ask us to believe a 200-year old book, and we ask you to believe a 2000-year old tradition of veneration of the tabernacle who carried God in her womb for 9 months and continues to pour grace on those who have love for her and her Son. You ask us to believe that there really was horses in America, no, really! We ask you to believe that God is here with us, and that He loves us and humbles himself to be with us every single day on every single altar in the whole world. You ask us to believe in a church and in a man. We ask you to believe in Christ as he truly is.

All the logic in the world cannot change the truth that the Catholic Church, in its most central act, continues to practice the liturgy originated by Christ and his apostles. I will pray for your soul, and for all of the souls who have been deceived by the lies of the LDS church.

Our lady, Queen of Carmel, pray for us. Father Augustin of the Blessed Sacrament and St. Edith Stein, pray for us. Glória Patri, et Fílio, et Spirítui Sancto, amen. :signofcross:
 
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