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sedonaman
Guest
For … cryin’ … out … loud. Does it have to be a literal “sword” for the invocation to violence to be valid? What a lame, thread-bare excuse for an attempt to skate out of that one. If you think you can get any more mileage out of it, think again.
Does Khomeini mean that if a Muslim kills an infidel but uses a different weapon, he won’t go to paradise? Do Muslim armies arm their troops all with swords? Do you have an actual [as opposed to literal] sword in your closet just in case tomorrow is the last day when you fight the Jews? If not, you better be on the safe side and get one; it is your “key” to Paradise. The time has come for the “Minutemuslim”.
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Agabriel
Guest
planten has on most threads always denied the use of the sword in Islam. In the very first battle that Muhammed waged he lobbed the heads off of all the men and boys ‘with hair’. I wonder how planten thinks that Muhammed and his followers did that? Maybe as we saw Daniel Perls head taken off - with a knife it was carved off. The sword was very important in its early years of imperialistic conquest. Later the Muslims would take inventions from others (never their own) and use them as weapons.
Look at what they use now! Vehicles that they do not invent, or manufacture. Homemade bombs they strap on their men, women and too often children. Rifles and other bombs that they buy with the money they get from the other Muslims who tell us they are ‘peaceful’ via Muslim charities, and also oil money. Airplanes that they do not manufacture, but they overtake and terrorize the passengers and crew to flying into buildings.
Here are a few of the surahs prescribing fighting - and it is not fighting a defensive war, but offensive wars against people.
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. (2:216)
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)
(basically, Muhammed figured out that killing all the infidel men off wasn’t such a good idea - if he had them working and he could tax them, humiliate them, basically just have their way with them. Sometimes the subjugated ones would be taxed even after their deaths!)
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).
To ask planten to study history is probably futile since he has an opportunity to do so, I would suppose, while on these threads but has chosen not to. I can’t believe his versions of history, they get so ‘out there’.
But we shouldn’t be surprised. There is a whole series of articles on faithfreedom.org that they are now twisting India’s history to suit their agenda.
DISTORTION OF INDIAN HISTORY FOR MUSLIM APPEASEMENT, Part 1
Part 2
And you can go further in these if you so desire - there are about five parts so far.
And this is what we are doing in Act for America - trying to stop their revision of our own history, and theirs too. They want to put fairy tales about the history of Islam in our kid’s history books. Currently, we are not even supposed to mention their genocide of the Armenian Christians. They don’t even mention the active role that Muslims played in Nazi Germany. Or the spider web of ties between the Nazis, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and such persons and organizations as Arafat, Saddam, The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Wahabbism, etc.
Look at what they use now! Vehicles that they do not invent, or manufacture. Homemade bombs they strap on their men, women and too often children. Rifles and other bombs that they buy with the money they get from the other Muslims who tell us they are ‘peaceful’ via Muslim charities, and also oil money. Airplanes that they do not manufacture, but they overtake and terrorize the passengers and crew to flying into buildings.
Here are a few of the surahs prescribing fighting - and it is not fighting a defensive war, but offensive wars against people.
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. (2:216)
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (9:5)
(basically, Muhammed figured out that killing all the infidel men off wasn’t such a good idea - if he had them working and he could tax them, humiliate them, basically just have their way with them. Sometimes the subjugated ones would be taxed even after their deaths!)
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29).
To ask planten to study history is probably futile since he has an opportunity to do so, I would suppose, while on these threads but has chosen not to. I can’t believe his versions of history, they get so ‘out there’.
But we shouldn’t be surprised. There is a whole series of articles on faithfreedom.org that they are now twisting India’s history to suit their agenda.
DISTORTION OF INDIAN HISTORY FOR MUSLIM APPEASEMENT, Part 1
Part 2
And you can go further in these if you so desire - there are about five parts so far.
And this is what we are doing in Act for America - trying to stop their revision of our own history, and theirs too. They want to put fairy tales about the history of Islam in our kid’s history books. Currently, we are not even supposed to mention their genocide of the Armenian Christians. They don’t even mention the active role that Muslims played in Nazi Germany. Or the spider web of ties between the Nazis, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and such persons and organizations as Arafat, Saddam, The Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, Wahabbism, etc.
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planten
Guest
BZ W, your post is extra ordinarily long. Why is that?. It is so that I cannot add even one line in reply to your post. The system will reject my reply post. So I tell you that your post is based on wrong beliefs, wrong knowledge. Do not quote weak hadith to malign Islam.I never said they were persecuted in Medinah, I said they were persecuted elsewhere. What crime were the Jews of Spain guilty of? Or the Christians and Jews of Jerusalem, or the Christians of Constantinople? What punishment did they deserve? Where was the “due process of justice”?
Furthermore, the Jews may have been guilty of “many frauds and mischief” against Muslims (although I think this was not always true), however, if Mohammad comes from the same line as Christ, why would he have entire tribes killed? Christ never commanded entire tribes to be annihilated, and neither did His early followers.
Islam was spread by the sword. By the end of the eighth century Islam controlled most of the Middle East, North Africa, and southern Spain, and it was all through military conquest. This is the only reason why the Muslims own those lands today.
I’m also aware of the quote from the Koran that there is no compulsion in Islam - however, the context of this is in regards to non-Muslims interested in Islam only. Otherwise, the Muslims of Mohammad’s time gave a strange application of it. I’ll quote an example I gave Zaki:
Narrated Abu Burda:
…The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’” [Sahih Bukhari 9:58/9:271]
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’” [Sahih Bukhari 4:260]
If there is no compulsion in religion, then who cares if a person stops being Muslim? Why burn them? Why kill them? Where is this religious tolerance that I often hear about? Furthermore, explain this:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [S. 9:29; emphasis mine]
Many Muslims claim war in the Koran is only in self-defense, but the order here is clear: don’t stop fighting non-Muslims - even people of the book - until they pay the Jizya and feel subdued. This is the Yusuf Ali translation: Pickthal translates the last part as “brought low”; Shakir translates it as “in a state of subjection.” This is not self-defense, this is aggression and oppression.
The jizya tax and dhimmi system are by themselves sign of an intolerance against other faiths, and here they are in the Koran.
I’m sorry, but those are not “facts of history,” because they’re wrong.
The reason the Byzantines were there was because the Roman Empire had previously ruled there, and as the west fell the eastern empire obviously kept their lands. Furthermore, the Romans and Persians were at that time at war with each other, a war which had been costly for both, the latter fact being one of the only reasons Islam spread so rapidly in the region at the initial outset of their conquest.
The very reason war began was because it was started by Mohammad, who sent a threatening letter to the emperor:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
…Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah’s Apostle which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: “In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants)…” [Sahih Bukhari 1:1:6; emphasis mine]
Muslim historian al-Tabari added to this story:
According to Ibn Humayd – Salamah – Muhammad b. Ishaq – Khalid b. Yasar – a very old Syrian, who said: When Heraclius was about to leave the land of Syria for Constantinople because of the report he received about the Messenger of God, he assembled the Romans and said: “People of the Romans, I shall present certain matters to you. Consider what I have decided…let me give him tribute each year, so that I can avert his vehemence from me and find rest from his warfare by means of money that I can give him.” [emphasis mine]
The attacks by the early Muslims against unbelievers were not self-defense.
NOTE: I shortened your quotes to make room for my post, not to hide your arguments
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
My post is long to explain myself and make my point clear, so that it doesn’t become a short statement of “your post is based on wrong beliefs, wrong knowledge.”
You were welcome to either leave my post out and directly respond to me, or quote brief segments just to make sure I knew what you were addressing. Please do not create conspiracies and accuse me of making it long on purpose so that you “cannot add even one line in reply” to my post. It’s an insult to me, and I think everyone here on this forum knows I wrote my post without any evil intent planned for the length.Also I have to say I’m a bit shocked…Sahih Bukhari is a weak hadith? The very title sahih means it is reliable. Bukhari’s collection, done over years of research and shortened down from hundreds of thousands to only tens of thousands that he knew were reliable, is considered by Muslim scholars to be one of the most reliable hadith sources in Islam.
I’m sorry to say this, but this is a common double standard I’ve found in some Muslim apologetics: when a hadith is fitting they quote it with glee, but if you take from the same hadith sources (quoting companions from the prophet no less) stories that are embarrassing for Muslims or Islamic theology, then suddenly the “Oh, that’s a weak hadith” excuse is played. I’m well aware of “strong” and “weak” hadith chains, however these are not the case. If you can provide some scholarly basis rather than blanket reasoning, I’d be willing to hear it. In any case, it is to me like if a Roman Catholic quoted Saint Ignatius to a Protestant and they responded, “Oh don’t quote some random church father!”
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Agabriel
Guest
Ishaq is indeed a valid source and his writings are more commonly called the Sira. And along with Bukhari, and Muslim who was his student, are highly regarded hadiths. There are three more authentic translations too.
Without the Sira and hadith there would be no intelligible Quran. And without the Sira and Hadith there would be no Sharia laws - those human rights disaster of a set of laws.
Without the Sira and hadith there would be no intelligible Quran. And without the Sira and Hadith there would be no Sharia laws - those human rights disaster of a set of laws.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
The context of Surat 111 would indeed be a bit hard to understand without the hadith sources explaining it.
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real2all
Guest
Well if I want to join a religion that states"kill the infidel" Islam will be my first choice. If I want a religion that you can have many wives, when one is more than enough, I will choose “Islam”. When I start to look at young children and think to myself I can’t wait till shes at least 9 years old to marry and have sex with my new child wife, I will choose “Islam”. When I get tired of my many 6-9 year old wives, I will state in the presents of 3 males “I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you”, Then go out to the local kindergartens to look for more wives, I will choose “Islam”. Well, sorry but can’t seem to find anything appealing about this, nope not one thing. Also the K,K,K, is not a religion its a organization, The “Crusades” and “Spanish Inquisition” are not exactly in the current events at the moment either, How about something a little more current like in this past century to now.
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real2all
Guest
Who wrote the “Hadith”? Was that person married to the person that claimed to be a prophet? How old was she when she was married to this “Prophet”? How old was this young child when he did consummate his marriage to this young, and I mean extremely young person?
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Agabriel
Guest
Groups like the KKK are not following the teachings of Christ. In fact, they follow the Nazi agenda which many Muslims did indeed follow while Hitler was alive. One notable was Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
Al Husseini was instrumental in the ‘systematic extermination of European Jewry’. Husseini convinced Hitler that the Jews should not just be expelled from Europe. NOthing less than extermination was suitable for them. He was the one who convinced Hitler to put them in Concentration Camps.
In radio addresses he would routinely say to ‘kill the jews whenever you find them’. (does that sound familiar to the most recent protests of Muslims in January of this year - ‘send them back to the ovens’, along with their signs of anti-semitism and other spewing of hatred?!) It also sounds familiar to what bin Laden says of what should be done to Americans. Just replace the word ‘Jew’ with ‘American’ - ‘kill the Americans wherever you find them’.
Husseini was waiting for Germany to be triumphant in Europe in order to begin the mass extermination of the Jews in all Arab lands.
Husseini was also in the military and took part in the mass extermination of the Armenian Christians before he hooked up with Hitler. In fact, this is the example that Hitler got from this extermination - that no country made any outcry, or did anything, about this extermination of the Christians. In fact, our ship (and I think it was a British ship) sat outside the harbor and when anyone swam to them they wouldn’t let them onboard while the extermination went on. It is sort of what we did when we helped Muslims slaughter more Christians during the Clinton years - we just went ahead and did it without knowing the history and who were the real aggressors of the area. (source for this Bosnia bit: The Revenge of The Prophet)
source: ‘The Link, The Secret Relationship between Saddam and Al Qaida’, Chapter 5,page 101-103.
More from this book - Husseini was the major role player in Project Odessa which gave an escape route to many of the Nazis. Many settled in Egypt and reverted to Islam.
He not only did radio propaganda for the Nazis, but he also led espionage and fifth column activies in Muslim regions of Europe and the Middle east. He formed Muslim Waffen SS and Wehrmacht units in Bosnia-Hercegovina, Kosovo-Metohija, and Western Macedonia, North African and Nazi occupied areas of the Soviet Union. And lastly formed schools and training centers for the Muslim imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht Units.
in fact it is Al-Husseini that is at the root of the current radicalization today. The wahabbis, who export their imams to our countries, are one of those offshoots along with the Muslim groups in the USA - many are funded by the Saudis too - along with mosques and madrassas.
I keep harping on the tie between this guy, the Muslim Brotherhood (who uses the MSA/MSU in our schools as a tool), and has ties to the Hamas, Al Qaeda, etc - and also some dead notables such as Arafat and Saddam.
So basically what we are battling in Islam is the dregs of what was the Nazis.
So, the Muslims can harp on the KKK - it pales in comparison to their ties.
We see this anti-semitism growing on our college campuses and that should be stopped and not tolerated, but our left wing liberals seem to want to appease and stick their heads in the sand instead. They are just ‘useful idiots’.
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real2all
Guest
Sorry kind of long, but i will do my best to understand. I thought the K,K,K was formed by William Bedford Forest. I thought he and his followers rode around causing hate and discontent towards people of color in the south? Predjudise, I also thought that the K,K,K allied them selfs with other hate groups like the “Aron Brotherhood”, Nazi Lowriders and to say the least a lot more Gangs too many to mention. Which has nothing to do with “what is the good points of islam”.
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Agabriel
Guest
There are 6 accepted translations of the hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim (was Bukhari’s student), Sunan Abu Dawud, Maliks Muwatta, al-Tirmidhi, and Qudsi (I haven’t found too many from him).Who wrote the “Hadith”? Was that person married to the person that claimed to be a prophet? How old was she when she was married to this “Prophet”? How old was this young child when he did consummate his marriage to this young, and I mean extremely young person?
The person who was married to Muhammed (when he was 52 years old) was a 6 year old called Aisha. He would rub his organ on her (thighing her), take baths with her, but did not have penetration until she was 9 years old. (yeah - pretty disgusting)
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234
Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Here is another article from a different source on it.
you can look in the hadith yourself for these passages of all of this. Be prepared, there is usually a backlash from the Muslims when we discuss this because they don’t like us infidels discussing this sort of thing. And if they are Shia they just think Aisha was a liar (that is why I posted Hisham’s words (Aisha’s father) instead of Aisha. They are ok with Allah and Muhammed lying, but not a little girl of 6-9 years old. go figure. But, there is no reason for her to lie. And we read about this happening in Islam all the time - child brides. The clerics lead the way in this behavior too.
This you can read for yourself. I am not going to quote from it because it gets pretty disgusting.
Thighing Aisha and washing off his semen
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Agabriel
Guest
It is sort of the same agenda - I didn’t mean it was the Nazis. It is basically a group of people who think they are superior over others and so the others who they feel are inferior should be terrorized and killed. It is what is also contained in the Quran about what Muslims should do to the Jews, Christians and other pagans.
I only answered the part where someone tried to link the KKK with the Christians and their wrong doings (basically a tu quoque type of argument to excuse their own wrongdoings).
So, I am sorry - I went off on a tangent.
For what is good in Islam? … thinking… still thinking… well, I better leave this thread since I know too much about Islam and can’t think of anything good about it…
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real2all
Guest
I know all of this, I just wanted other people in the forum to put the pieces together, So they can see as I have seen the utter disgusting nature of all that is present. With such perverse actings do you truly believe that a angel came down or a devil? Angel or devil, you decide, one word.
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real2all
Guest
No,No, No
I love to read your post, I can’t think of a single thing either but I do enjoy reading from people that know what they’re talking about.
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planten
Guest
**Jakasaki, I can give you a very early time report. Some Muslim traders and preachers had gone to a nearby christian country (State) which was under the protection of Caeser, the Roman Christain King. When they preached Islam, they were in the foriegn country and quite unarmed. They were killed by the Roman Catholics.
So the Caliph demanded an explanation from the ruler of that state. They The RC’s were haughty and arrogant feeling their own super power. So the Caliph gave them an ultimatum to get ready for war. He sent his forces to take account of the killing of poor Muslims. The result was bad for the Roman Catholics. They (The RC) were defeated. So the trouble developed which went on to the complete defeat of the christians.
They had no right to kill any preacher. Afterwards, of course, it was open for all who wanted to fight. Muslims did not press any one to fight if they desisted from fighting. jakasaki, try to read the correct early history.**
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Agabriel
Guest
I think that it was Lucifer.
But, I also think that Muhammed had a lot of mental problems. I wrote a couple of posts about it on the ‘Why do you hate Islam’ thread. #297, #298.
The book I refer to is a very good book written by Ali Sina (www.faithfreedom.org) a former Muslim. He has many former Muslims write articles for him on his website.
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real2all
Guest
I’m sorry, How about something a little more present in our time. Here’s one the recent “Election” in “Iran”. If they don’t stop protesting the “Supreme Leader” is going to stop the “Protesting” for them with the use of force. Nope, still can’t seem to find anything good, sorry.
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real2all
Guest
Thank you very much.
I went and looked at that link you posted and I must say, it really turned my stomach. My wife (only have one and she’s not 9 to say the least) asked me what was wrong. I simply stated “the truth”. Also I must say Devil.
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real2all
Guest
okay still can’t seem to find a good point.
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