Good work = salvation is it true?

[I_v_I]

Really? You and I had this conversation before? Could you please cite the thread or post?

The specific topic then was suicide some pages ago, but same premiss i think. No prob though, it let me expound upon my understanding of “free will”.

Ah, the Faux Believer paradigm. There are True Believers; and therefore there must be False Believers.

That is a curious paradigm as it essentially negates Once Saved Always Saved doctrine. For if one believes there’s such a thing as someone who* thinks* he’s saved but actually isn’t, then one can’t know* for certain* that he’s saved, right?

Once Saved Always Saved does not depend on whether or not someone doubts their Salvation. If someone is Saved, they are Saved even if they have temporary doubt.

 

[Nicene]

I haven’t posted here in a long time however it seems certain debates will always continue.

To be honest I really don’t see how difficult to understand the difference between initial justification, faith apart from works (essentially the context regards circumcision) and final justification by your works you will be justified. Both St. James and St. Paul make this point (as well as the gospels but I think that has been covered adequately already.

St. Paul never says faith alone, in fact you’ll also find this in Romans which hasn’t been brought up in the thread yet, which in St. Pauls theology is final justification:

**Rom 2:**13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Basically it can be boiled down to a simple question; Why were you given the Holy Spirit? It wasn’t a pointless gesture by God. In the NT you’ll find multiple answers to that, to grow in holiness, to do Gods works, but it is easily summed up in one easy phrase in the NT. We have been given the Holy Spirit to do the will of God, This is exactly what he promised in Ezekiel:

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my commands…

So v25 God cleanses us in baptism and v26 gives us a new heart and spirit (this is initial justification) then He expects us to walk in His commandments v27 with His help.

Scripturally, neglecting to do Gods will after he has given you this great gift has consequences. He doesn’t hide that fact, in fact He is pretty blunt about it.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[steve_b]

Once Saved Always Saved does not depend on whether or not someone doubts their Salvation. If someone is Saved, they are Saved even if they have temporary doubt.

5 passages from scripture clearly teach against the idea.

2 Pet 2:20 :
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”
iow, One must persevere till the end of their life.

1 Cor 9:27, Paul is a man of great faith. And even a chosen apostle has to acknowledge
" I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
iow, Paul wasn’t presumptuous about his salvation*.*.

1 Cor 10:12, Paul even warns against smug overconfidence regarding our salvation:
“Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”
Therefore, “once saved, always saved” is NOT a biblical doctrine, and in fact scripture says the opposite.

Paul says to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” Phil 2:12. And why do that if one knows in advance, their eternal security is already sealed no matter what? Paul is saying, no one is truly saved until they die and are safely in God’s hands.

We are forbidden to judge (as in judging one’s eternal destiny) Matt 7:1, and that includes we don’t judge our own eternal destination as well ! When people say “I am saved”, THEY are judging their own eternal destiny, which is the job of Jesus ALONE.

 

[PRmerger]

The specific topic then was suicide some pages ago, but same premiss i think. No prob though, it let me expound upon my understanding of “free will”.

Yeah, I wasn’t part of that conversation.

It’s part of the culture here on the CAFs that people come and join the discussion at different phases. No one need apologize for not reading all of the previous posts. It’s just the way it is. Conversely, no one also need repeat that which has already been discussed.

Once Saved Always Saved does not depend on whether or not someone doubts their Salvation. If someone is Saved, they are Saved even if they have temporary doubt.

No, l v l, you misunderstand. OSAS does not fall apart because a True Believer “doubts” (Not sure where you got that from. My example ala Martignoni showed someone who had great assurance in his own salvation.)

OSAS falls apart if you believe there are such things as Faux Believers.

And it seems that you do.

If there’s such a thing as a FB, then you cannot have assurance of salvation, because, alas, *you *may one of those hapless folks that thinks he’s a TB, but, sadly is actually a FB.

And there seems to be no way to know which one you are: for every FB thinks he’s saved, just like you do, but actually isn’t. Everything the FB believes is exactly in concert with your beliefs, except the poor soul just doesn’t know he actually isn’t saved. Even if he said the Sinner’s Prayer (which is not found in the Bible, BTW.), came down for an altar call (not in the Bible either :nope and confessed that Jesus is his Lord and Savior, he actually isn’t saved.

Curious!

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by I v I
That being said, I cannot say whether the Lord would allow a truly Saved person to commit such an act. However, if He did they would certainly still be Saved through the Grace and Mercy of the Lord

If you actions depend on what Jesus allows you to do, then you are not acting freely
If are saved despite unrepentant sin, then God is not being just.

Quote:
Be honest with yourself.

This openness to truth will ultimately save you…

Quote:
What you are describing is not free will. You are describing man as a puppet of God being manipulated every step of the way to carry out God;s purpose.

No, I never agreed to any definition where man is not free to make his own choices on whether to follow God or to turn from him. But lets be clear here, we don’t have unlimited options. Every person has a set of skills that makes some options more realistic than others. Some are good at math, some an sing, some can dance, some are athletic, some are blind or deaf or dumb or mentally retarded. But everyone was created with a purpose in mind and was given the skills to carry out that purpose. I like to tell my CCD classes the story of St. Bernadette Soubirous, the visionary at Lourdes. She was exceptionally poor, sickly, small and illiterate at age 14 when she saw the Virgin Mary at Lourdes, yet she was absolutely perfect for the job at hand, which was to bring people back to God in athiestic, mid-nineteenth certury France through her unassuming witness to what she had seen. Now granted, she was given great graces to be given 18 visions of the Blessed Virgin, yet she was also subject to great temptations and unbelieveable pressure from her family, the church and the state. She made choices on a daily basis, just like everyone else (albiet in heightened circumstances) that ultimately led to her becoming a saint (read her story on line or by reading the best seller , The Song of Bernadette (which was made into the academy award winning movie in 1943)

Quote:
In fact, you have even described a situation where God is causing someone to act unjustly by robbing a home and killing a child.

Yes, you are right. God is NOT the cause of evil. And you are also right that God allows men the opportunity to indulge themselves. But it is up to the man to withstand those temptations and follow the will of God and hence be sanctified.

Quote:
How could a loving God do that?

I agree that there are more characteristics to his person. I was pointing out that God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just. He will show mercy to all that ask, but to those that don’t ask for his mercy, he will enact his judgement.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
What’s more, you are defining two types of people. The believers who are destined to be saved and the unbelievers who are manipulated for the benefit of the ones who are saved.

We are dancing around some basic theological discussions so lets be explicit. You are describing a common Protestant concept of the saved and the reprobate. In this concept, God creates some men for the purpose of his Glory and are saved before they are born (the believers) and others who are damned (or the unbelievers) to hell before they are born. I know that Romans 9 is the favorite proof text for this view and indeed, it is easy to come to this conclusion if you read Romans 9 in a vacuum. But as we discussed, scripture must be interpreted in a way that there are no contradictions with other scriptures. And in John 12:32, Jesus says" And when I am lifted up from the Earth, I will call every one to myself". Now if Jesus calls all men to himself, how can there be a reprobate class, condemned to Hell before they are
born? So there must be another intepretation for Romans 9 and indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that there is no reprobate class and that all men have a legitimate choice to be saved or not saved based on their own decisions and actions. So how are we to interpret Romans 9. The requires understanding the Catholic Concept that life is a test to see whether we will choose heaven or hell. Our tests include both “positive” situations when things go well and negative situations where we have hardships. Often, the positive tests are more difficult than the negative tests because people are lulled into thinking that their successes are of thier own doing and that they are superior to those with lesser gifts, resulting in arrogance and falls from grace (as you so often see with the rich and famous). So Jacob is given a larger role than Esau and both are tested by it. And Pharoah was given the power to free the Hebrews. But he failed his test because he was looking out for himself and ingoring the will of God in his arrogance. God put him in this situation and in fact gave him the power to do His will, but the pharoah declined to do so, which he also had the power to do and hence, lost much more than jus the slaves.

Quote:
But God shows no partiality (as shown in the quote from Romans above)

Okay, again. All men are called to God. Read Romans 1-3, where Paul talks about the natural law and that God is obvious to all men through his works. And let’s be clear about this concept that believers are not judged. EVERY ONE is judged. And FAith alone doesn’t save. You must demonstrate your faith though action and love. Read 1Corinthians 13 and James 2. That should convince you. Sure, you are initially justified (we call it, entering into the state of grace) through faith when you are baptized, but you only enter heaven if you are sanctified by staying in the state of grace through love.

Quote:
No, man has REAL free will.

Free will is the ability to choose to do right or wrong and this concept is held through out the Bible Starting with Genesis 3, the fall of man.

Quote:
You and every other member of the human race make decisions every day that will effect their salvation.

So how do you reconcile this position with the one where you say there is a reprobate class, who is destined to be condemned?

Quote:
Don’t you recognize this or do you really believe that nothing you do matters?

The danger here is that how we intepret scripture is often a matter of our internal bias. Catholics have an advantage here in that the Church interprets scripture for us, explaining the context in which the scriptures were written

Quote:
And if nothing matters, why do you pray, why do you evangelize, why are you spending so much time on this website. Your vary actions deny your stated position.

So, lets make it abundantly clear. Do you agree that if we do God’s will after entering the state of grace, then we will enter heaven? And do you also agree that if we sin instead of doing God’s will, then we will be condemned? If you can’t agree to this, then you need to explain how our actons matter, if they don’t effect our going to heaven, the only thing that really matters in life?

 

[I_v_I]

Yeah, I wasn’t part of that conversation.

It’s part of the culture here on the CAFs that people come and join the discussion at different phases. No one need apologize for not reading all of the previous posts. It’s just the way it is. Conversely, no one also need repeat that which has already been discussed.

I tried to make it abundantly clear that it was no problem and I was looking for no apologies??? At any rate, the conversation went on while you were “here”, you just must have missed it. However, like I said it caused me no problems.

No, l v l, you misunderstand. OSAS does not fall apart because a True Believer “doubts” (Not sure where you got that from. My example ala Martignoni showed someone who had great assurance in his own salvation.)

OSAS falls apart if you believe there are such things as Faux Believers.

And it seems that you do.

If there’s such a thing as a FB, then you cannot have assurance of salvation, because, alas, *you *may one of those hapless folks that thinks he’s a TB, but, sadly is actually a FB.

And there seems to be no way to know which one you are: for every FB thinks he’s saved, just like you do, but actually isn’t. Everything the FB believes is exactly in concert with your beliefs, except the poor soul just doesn’t know he actually isn’t saved. Even if he said the Sinner’s Prayer (which is not found in the Bible, BTW.), came down for an altar call (not in the Bible either :nope and confessed that Jesus is his Lord and Savior, he actually isn’t saved.

Curious!

I assure you PR, you are the one who misunderstands this…

You are looking at things from the wrong vantage point, OSAS is in the hands and eyes of God. It is separate from the mindset of an individual, the assurance is in the hands of God and never changes. When God Saves a person they become a TB. And they will always be a TB. Among the TBs there are FBs who have never been Saved and therefore have never had true faith. This means the FB does not believe what the TB believes, nor have they ever. They do not have a true faith in Christ and indeed they never have had it.

btw… my church does not promote the ridiculous “sinner’s prayer”, nor do we do alter call.

 

[PRmerger]

I tried to make it abundantly clear that it was no problem and I was looking for no apologies??? At any rate, the conversation went on while you were “here”, you just must have missed it. However, like I said it caused me no problems.

And, like I said, you have every right to not want to repeat it. If you want to revisit it, that’s cool, too.

I just wasn’t part of the conversation, and to say, “We’ve already discussed this” as in
“l v l and PR” is untrue.

I assure you PR, you are the one who misunderstands this…

You are looking at things from the wrong vantage point, OSAS is in the hands and eyes of God. It is separate from the mindset of an individual, the assurance is in the hands of God and never changes.

I have no problem with that paradigm.

When God Saves a person they become a TB.

Yes, and they become “saved” when they die and join Him in heaven.

And they will always be a TB.

Yep, because no one who’s a TB leaves heaven, eh?

Among the TBs there are FBs who have never been Saved and therefore have never had true faith. This means the FB does not believe what the TB believes, nor have they ever. They do not have a true faith in Christ and indeed they never have had it.

Fair enough.

Now, how does one know if one is a TB or a FB?

In your hypothetical this FB believed exactly the same things that you believe. So what distinguishes him from you?

tw… my church does not promote the ridiculous “sinner’s prayer”, nor do we do alter call.

Excellent! It is indeed ridiculous to be a SS advocate yet proclaim a “sinner’s prayer” which is not found in the pages of Scripture.

And it’s ridiculous to have an altar call, where there is no altar, no?

 

[I_v_I]

You are describing a common Protestant concept of the saved and the reprobate. In this concept, God creates some men for the purpose of his Glory and are saved before they are born (the believers) and others who are damned (or the unbelievers) to hell before they are born. I know that Romans 9 is the favorite proof text for this view and indeed, it is easy to come to this conclusion if you read Romans 9 in a vacuum…And in John 12:32, Jesus says" And when I am lifted up from the Earth, I will call every one to myself". Now if Jesus calls all men to himself, how can there be a reprobate class, condemned to Hell before they are born? So there must be another intepretation for Romans 9 and indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that there is no reprobate class and that all men have a legitimate choice to be saved or not saved based on their own decisions and actions. So how are we to interpret Romans 9. The requires understanding the Catholic Concept that life is a test to see whether we will choose heaven or hell. Our tests include both “positive” situations when things go well and negative situations where we have hardships. Often, the positive tests are more difficult than the negative tests because people are lulled into thinking that their successes are of thier own doing and that they are superior to those with lesser gifts, resulting in arrogance and falls from grace (as you so often see with the rich and famous). So Jacob is given a larger role than Esau and both are tested by it. And Pharoah was given the power to free the Hebrews. But he failed his test because he was looking out for himself and ingoring the will of God in his arrogance. God put him in this situation and in fact gave him the power to do His will, but the pharoah declined to do so, which he also had the power to do and hence, lost much more than jus the slaves.

I believe “all men” would be the better translation in that verse and it refers to “all kinds of men” i.e. Jews and Gentiles. Specifying that Salvation is not only for the Jews.

As for your interpretation of Rom 9, I think you would have a VERY hard time proving that verse by verse with an in depth study. There is one very strongly pushed idea of Rom 9 and it is God’s Sovereignty in Salvation.

Okay, again. All men are called to God. Read Romans 1-3, where Paul talks about the natural law and that God is obvious to all men through his works. And let’s be clear about this concept that believers are not judged. EVERY ONE is judged. And FAith alone doesn’t save. You must demonstrate your faith though action and love. Read 1Corinthians 13 and James 2. That should convince you. Sure, you are initially justified (we call it, entering into the state of grace) through faith when you are baptized, but you only enter heaven if you are sanctified by staying in the state of grace through love.

John 5: 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

James 2 warns of false profession. Those who have true faith WILL do good works, therefore if you do not do “good works” then you may have a false faith.

So how do you reconcile this position with the one where you say there is a reprobate class, who is destined to be condemned?

Those who reject Christ do so of their own will. They want to do it, they are happy to do it, they willfully do it. They are not made to reject Christ against their will, they are simply left to reject Him without being made to do otherwise.

They are left to do exactly as they will to do.

The danger here is that how we intepret scripture is often a matter of our internal bias. Catholics have an advantage here in that the Church interprets scripture for us, explaining the context in which the scriptures were written

Catholics believe they have an advantage… I’ll ask you a question I’ve asked several times and have yet to get an answer. How many “early churches” can you find in the Bible that were infallible? Now how many can you find that were screwed up? Now why do you believe “early church” interpretations were infallible?

So, lets make it abundantly clear. Do you agree that if we do God’s will after entering the state of grace, then we will enter heaven?

I am not familiar with what this “state of grace” is? Where is it in scripture?

I believe someone who has been Saved by Christ WILL do good works after they have been Saved.

And do you also agree that if we sin instead of doing God’s will, then we will be condemned?

No. I believe TBs still fall to sin, however I do not believe they “live in sin” (i.e. slaves to sin). The TB is not condemned because:

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

If you can’t agree to this, then you need to explain how our actons matter, if they don’t effect our going to heaven, the only thing that really matters in life?

As I have said TBs WILL do “good works”. Their life is changed when they are Saved. This does not mean that they become perfect however.

As far as getting to Heaven, it is of the Will of God. Man left to His original nature/original will will always reject Christ and will always do only works of the flesh. Without God changing the persons heart, and giving them the Spirit, all their “good works” will be as filthy rags soiled by the underlying evil that they are spawned from.

It is not by the work of man the he is Saved it is by the work of God.

Rom 9:11…so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

 

[paul_c]

I believe “all men” would be the better translation in that verse and it refers to “all kinds of men” i.e. Jews and Gentiles. Specifying that Salvation is not only for the Jews.

How does that effect the point that Jesus calls all men to himself, not “some men.”

As for your interpretation of Rom 9, I think you would have a VERY hard time proving that verse by verse with an in depth study. There is one very strongly pushed idea of Rom 9 and it is God’s Sovereignty in Salvation.

There is no doubt that God is sovereign in salvation. The question is different. The question is whether man can turn from God. Nothing in Romans or in fact scripture denies that he can.

John 5: 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Yes, this is true of course. This refers to the faith that leads to baptism. But it does not follow that if you lose your faith and apostacize, that you will still be welcomed into heaven.

James 2 warns of false profession. Those who have true faith WILL do good works, therefore if you do not do “good works” then you may have a false faith.

Exactly. If you have true faith, you will do works of love. But if you don’t do works of love, your faith is worthless. So works of love are the measure of your faith.

Those who reject Christ do so of their own will. They want to do it, they are happy to do it, they willfully do it. They are not made to reject Christ against their will, they are simply left to reject Him without being made to do otherwise.

They are left to do exactly as they will to do.

Agreed. Those you reject God / Jesus do so of their own free will. It is not their destiny, it is their choice.

Catholics believe they have an advantage… I’ll ask you a question I’ve asked several times and have yet to get an answer. How many “early churches” can you find in the Bible that were infallible? Now how many can you find that were screwed up? Now why do you believe “early church” interpretations were infallible?

I don’t know who you have been asking. The answer is not difficult at all. The teachings are infallible. However, inevitably people fail to understand and to follow those teachings perfectly. That is why there is continual correction of those people in the new testament epistles and in revelation.

I am not familiar with what this “state of grace” is? Where is it in scripture?

The state of grace simply means people who have God’s grace. You certainly recognize that throughout the new testament, the authors talk about people who have God’s grace. That’s what we are talking about.

I believe someone who has been Saved by Christ WILL do good works after they have been Saved.

Exactly. This is exactly what the Church Teaches. You are saved when you are baptized and then you gain the grace to do good works…

No. I believe TBs still fall to sin, however I do not believe they “live in sin” (i.e. slaves to sin). The TB is not condemned because:

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

As I have said TBs WILL do “good works”. Their life is changed when they are Saved. This does not mean that they become perfect however.

Yes, this is true. But through the continual gaining of grace through the eucharist and the forgiveness of sins through the sacrament of reconciliation, you can get a lot closer to perfection.

As far as getting to Heaven, it is of the Will of God. Man left to His original nature/original will will always reject Christ and will always do only works of the flesh. Without God changing the persons heart, and giving them the Spirit, all their “good works” will be as filthy rags soiled by the underlying evil that they are spawned from.

Yes, when baptized properly, original sin is forgiven.

It is not by the work of man the he is Saved it is by the work of God.

Rom 9:11…so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

True, God calls us to be baptized and if we respond affirmatively, he gives us the grace to do good works. If we continue to cooperate, we will go to heaven. You are starting to understand the CAtholic position now.

 

[I_v_I]

And, like I said, you have every right to not want to repeat it. If you want to revisit it, that’s cool, too.

I just wasn’t part of the conversation, and to say, “We’ve already discussed this” as in
“l v l and PR” is untrue.

The “we’ve” was stated as a collective of the whole, as in the group that has been discussing, not just you and I.

…In your hypothetical this FB believed exactly the same things that you believe…

The FB doesn’t believe exactly what a TB believes. They make “claim” that they believe exactly what the TB believes for whatever reason (to fit in for social reasons, to take advantage, true delusion, ect).

Now, how does one know if one is a TB or a FB?..So what distinguishes him from you?

This is exactly what James 2 addresses. Those that “claim” to have faith yet show no evidence through “good works”. Therefore they have a faith that is not a true faith in Christ and therefore is not a faith that Saves.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone **claims **to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

And it’s ridiculous to have an altar call, where there is no altar, no?

Indeed.

 

[I_v_I]

Would you’ll tell me exactly what you find non Biblical with my representation here. I happen to think this is quite Biblical and can’t see why you would think otherwise.

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man (Believer who killed his wife). And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will, rob the man’s home and in the process kill the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I hope this clears up my understanding…

 

[Jaaanosik]

It’s a long thread.
Was the salvation defined along the way?
How is it understood in this thread?
Is the salvation process or one time thing of becoming God’s child?

 

[PRmerger]

The “we’ve” was stated as a collective of the whole, as in the group that has been discussing, not just you and I.

Fair enough.

The FB doesn’t believe exactly what a TB believes. They make “claim” that they believe exactly what the TB believes for whatever reason (to fit in for social reasons, to take advantage, true delusion, ect).

So I’ll ask you the question Mr. Martignoni asked of his OSAS advocate: can someone be a Faux Believer but think he’s actually a True Believer?

 

[PRmerger]

Would you’ll tell me exactly what you find non Biblical with my representation here. I happen to think this is quite Biblical and can’t see why you would think otherwise.

There’s nothing unbiblical about it, l v l, in the sense that you, well, quote Bible verses.

It’s just that you exclude all the* other* verses in Scripture.

Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses will cite verses that state that Jesus is a man and inferior to Jehovah by citing, say, John 14:28 and a few others, but they exclude all the others that proclaim Jesus as God Incarnate.

 

[steve_b]

Catholics believe they have an advantage… I’ll ask you a question I’ve asked several times and have yet to get an answer. How many "early churches" can you find in the Bible that were infallible?

some Protestants today, seem to make infallible statements about themselves being “saved”, in spite of [Phil 2:12] etc etc…true?

But to your question,

• the Church of Rome never taught error. All the other early churches actually taught heresy. For example, Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jersualem, all of them taught Arianism.

I:

Now how many can you find that were screwed up? Now why do you believe “early church” interpretations were infallible?

• If you look at the Churches mentioned in scripture, AND those that received a letter or letters from an apostle, the Church of Rome is not only here today, but covers the world. I find that significant given the promises Jesus gave to Peter.
• The NT was written in, by, for and canonized by the Catholic Church. If Protestants say the Catholic Church is NOT infallible, they’re screwed. Because the very book they take as their sole source of faith, is OUR book, written and compiled by the Catholic Church. Now if the Catholic Church goofed, because it’s NOT infallible on faith and morals, protestants have nothing but a fallible collection of fallible books with alot of fallible ideas in them. In fact R. C Sproul couldn’t get himself to say that but instead he said, regarding the canon of scripture, “we have a fallible collection of infallible books”. Oh really? You gotta admit, Sproul really didn’t think THAT statement through.

I:

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

True, but note: That’s a conditional statement, and one that presumes a whole lot of prerequisites have been met and are in place in the individual, and maintained by that individual till their last breath…

 

[kristine105]

People from other sectors or religions are often mistaken about the views of most Catholics about salvation that’s why they thought of us, Catholics that we can only be saved by our good works. Well, definitely no, There should always be faith and to live a righteous life. It will all be nonsense if you are so faithful yet you live your life as a full-time sinner.

 

[I_v_I]

5 passages from scripture clearly teach against the idea.

2 Pet 2:20 :
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.”
iow, One must persevere till the end of their life.

I agree one must persevere till the the end. I’ve never said otherwise.

Those spoken of here again were never TB, they were never Saved. They were professing believers, not only in word but to a point in their outward actions (though not inwardly). However, they turned their back on the way of righteousness so that they would be made manifest that they were never Saved.

1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 Cor 9:27, Paul is a man of great faith. And even a chosen apostle has to acknowledge
" I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
iow, Paul wasn’t presumptuous about his salvation*.*.

1 Cor 10:12, Paul even warns against smug overconfidence regarding our salvation:
“Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”
Therefore, “once saved, always saved” is NOT a biblical doctrine, and in fact scripture says the opposite.

Paul says to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” Phil 2:12. And why do that if one knows in advance, their eternal security is already sealed no matter what? Paul is saying, no one is truly saved until they die and are safely in God’s hands.

We are forbidden to judge (as in judging one’s eternal destiny) Matt 7:1, and that includes we don’t judge our own eternal destination as well ! When people say “I am saved”, THEY are judging their own eternal destiny, which is the job of Jesus ALONE.

I agree with all this scripture. I have never said anything contrary to these scriptures.

You are also looking at OSAS from the wrong perspective. It is not the man who knows they are eternally held in the Lord’s hand, it is God who knows it. A TB must definitely question his/her faith continually.

 

[I_v_I]

So I’ll ask you the question Mr. Martignoni asked of his OSAS advocate: can someone be a Faux Believer but think he’s actually a True Believer?

Absolutely. They will be the ones saying, “Lord, Lord…”

 

[I_v_I]

There’s nothing unbiblical about it, l v l, in the sense that you, well, quote Bible verses.

You obviously misunderstood my question or did not read the post altogether. It referred to the quoted text below the question. There is actually no scripture quoted there.

It’s just that you exclude all the* other* verses in Scripture.

Well that is just a bold faced lie. I actually expected more from you PR. Please point out the verses I have excluded from scripture. Take your time lol.

Similarly, Jehovah’s Witnesses will cite verses that state that Jesus is a man and inferior to Jehovah by citing, say, John 14:28 and a few others, but they exclude all the others that proclaim Jesus as God Incarnate.

Again, please justify this expounding of your lie.

But first, please address my initial question from above. Since my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” is so non Biblical I would like to know what exactly Catholics find in it that is against scripture.