Good work = salvation is it true?

[I_v_I]

Hello I v I. Welcome.

Thanks.

Since the last chapter of St. Paul’s ended with Him speaking of the works of the law, then it’s natural flow to the following chapter would be saying that ‘IF’ Abraham were justified by those same works of the law, he has glory, but not with God.

I would have nothing to say to that if Abraham had the Law. But he didn’t so this can’t be the meaning. It would be pointless for Paul to be saying this. Further, Paul reinforces this by telling us how he obtained the credit of righteousness. Once again, through faith, not of works (Rom 4:3). The exact same theme again and again.

St. James confirms a distinct separation between both types of works when He speaks of Abraham being Justified by His Works which in Catholic terms, is speaking of the Doctrine of Increase Justification mentioned in Trent after first being Justified by His faith.

James 2

21 *Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works, offering up Isaac, his son, upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did co-operate with his works: and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying: *Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.

Des take a little time to think about what you are saying. You are saying that Paul referred to Abraham in works of the Law. Then you say it’s substantiated because Abraham offered his son on the altar. Can you see that this proves my point? The offering of Isaac was not a work of the Law it was simply a work. Just as I said Paul was referring to, any and all works - be they of the Law or not.

Additionally, James refers to Rahab as being considered righteous. She was not a Jew and therefore didn’t have the Law either. Neither of the examples James gives us were works of the Law.

There is indeed a difference in perspective of “works” between Paul and James. Paul says you need no works for justification. James says you need works for justification. How do we reconcile this? Paul’s point of view is works before God while Jame’s point of view is works before man.

Paul tells us that no works are needed to receive the free gift from God because his topic was Salvation - something only God needs to know in order for it to be true to Him.

James tells us that works are needed in order for one to prove to man they have received Salvation - something man needs to know in order to distinguish between those who are Saved and those who are not. His topic was true/false professors and distinguishing between the two.

False profession - James 2:14 … if a man claims to have faith…; James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that…

James is telling us that those who have true faith prove to have that faith by the actions of how they live their life. This aligns perfectly with Paul: Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, **created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. **

Proving true faith to man with works - James 2:18 … I will show my faith by what I do.

 

[I_v_I]

Ave Maria l v l, hope yoiu enjoy CAF

So you agree the Septuagint is authentic. Which means you accept the deuterocanonical books?

Interesting. Will enjoy doing some research on the Deuterocanonical books, I’m not familiar with these. Were there any quotes used from or references made of these texts in the NT? Why do you believe they were not included?

I think he’s asking how did we recieve the canon of Sacred Scripture? What was and what wasn’t going to be in Sacred Scrpture, and if it’s open or closed. Who was the authority that decided the table of context and which books/letters were inspired by God? We all know the answer, even yourself, but I think he wants you to say it

Quite sure your answer is very different from mine by the way you worded your statement. My answer is God, as He is the prevailing Author and Authority of all that occurs. He is most definitely the prevailing Author over His Word and its presentation. I will not definitively say that other books are not truth, however, I choose only to acknowledge those books He decided to present as His Word in the Bible as unquestionably true. If there are other “books of truth” that did not get canonized, then God for whatever reason did not want them to be so. If He did, you’d better believe they would have been.

I am sure many will think I am trying to sidestep the question. I most definitely am not…

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

God has His reasons, I don’t question Him anymore, I just try my best to trust Him and yield to His Will.

 

[steve_b]

The exact words do not need to be in a statement in order to understand that the words are the gist of the statement. What would you say to me if I said, “purgatory is obviously an incorrect interpretation because the exact word is not in the Bible”? What about the trinity?

My point is, faith is NOT alone. Faith can’t be isolated and say it is alone.
I:

This is not reading into the text. It is understanding it.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 *not by *works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, *which God prepared in advance for us to do. *

From “by grace” we understand that absolutely no work was needed to obtain the free gift, otherwise the giving of the gift is not grace but payment.

Grace comes first THEN faith. Therefore faith is NOT alone. You do know there are 2 types of works spoken of here. They are not the same thing

• works = works of law (the 612 Mosaic laws)
• good works done in faith

The ONLY place “faith alone” appears in the entire bible is James 2:24. And the word NOT is in front of it.
I:

From “you have been saved through faith” we understand that Salvation came by the free gift of faith. True it doesn’t say “you have been saved by faith alone” but then again it does because this is all Paul tells us we have been saved by.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is NOT alone. AND we must do good works. they are not an option
I:

Further we see that Salvation has already been completed by those who have received the free gift due to the usage of the past tense.

Yes salvation is completed. That doesn’t mean EVERYONE can presume THEY are saved. A person who dies in mortal sin for example will go straight to hell. The easiest mortal sins to commit are sexual sins.

• fornication
• adultery, (which can also encompass divorce and remarriage, both commit adultery)
• homosexual activity
• and all the variations of immorality within these categories.

But there are other sins as well that are mortal and people oftentimes don’t take them seriously.
I:

From “this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”, we see that this free gift had nothing to do with anything we did. It came freely from God Himself. This directly tells us no work was needed to receive the gift.

Salvation is a gift from God. But there are alot of IF statements in scripture that make salvation statements conditional. Know this, you WILL be judged on what you do or don’t do.
I:

From “not by works” Paul is telling you… it is not by works. This couldn’t be any more clear.

From “we are God’s handiwork” we understand again that the work of our Salvation was done by God and God alone.

From “created in Christ Jesus to do good works” we understand that God’s handiwork through the Spirit of Christ Jesus leads us to do good works. These works are a result of the Holy Spirit working in us, not of ourselves.

we do good works because we are told we are created to do them. Therefore, we must do them. If we DON’T do good works God will curse US like he did the fig tree. Good works is grace and faith in action.

It’s like when Paul said, I wouldn’t know coveting was a wrong if the law didn’t tell me it was wrong.
I:

From “which God prepared in advance for us to do” we have confirmation that the good works came from God’s work in preparing them, not from man’s decision to do them.

Of course man freely makes a decision to do them. EVERYTHING we do requires a decision.
I:

Paul belabors the point again and again and again in this piece of text that the work, all of the work, is of God. This is the entire point of the text, every bit of it attempts to tell us that Salvation is from God and only God by His grace through the faith He mercifully gives. To God be the glory and none to man.

Of course salvation is from God. And God tells us in detail what is necessary for salvation. And Eph 2:10 tells us we MUST do good works. It’s not a suggestion. It’s a requirement.
I:

Just because the word “alone” doesn’t appear here doesn’t mean we can be blind to “not by works”.

Salvation is attained through faith, not by works.

works there = works of law. Don’t confuse works of law with good works.

Salvation is attained by faith working in love. iow, faith without good works is dead. And a dead faith is useless.
I:

No tree or person produces fruit unless God wills it. Those He wills to produce fruit through Salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit produce good fruit. Those who do not are cursed.

God desires ***all ***to be saved. No one is outside of that desire. God doesn’t predestine ANYONE to hell. He desires NONE to be lost. OTOH, That doesn’t translate to everyone is therefore saved. Or that everyone will obey Him. We make choices and ultimately we are obedient to the faith we have been given or we are not. Hell exists because people disobey the instructions given for salvation, and if the disobedience is of a serious variety, and one ultimately dies in their condition, they won’t be saved. Scripture is clear on that.

 

[Des]

I would have nothing to say to that if Abraham had the Law. But he didn’t so this can’t be the meaning. It would be pointless for Paul to be saying this.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe there were Chapters or numbered verses in the the Epistle of Paul to the Romans as we have in our Bible’s of today. So if we read the end of the Chapter 3 before and continue with that in mind while going to Chapter 4, it would seem problematic to suggest all of the sudden, Paul is talking about all kinds of works, when just prior it was about the works of the Law. This can be shown even further up in verse 13 of Chapter 4 when it’s clear He’s still talking about the works of the Law. I mean if we still keep with your interpretation here, He technically shouldn’t have used the Law as another example when speaking about the promise of Abraham being the heir of the world through the justice of faith right. Why since as you suggest, the law wasn’t even started yet.

*13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed, that he should be heir of the world, but through the justice of faith.
14 For if they who are of the law, be heirs: faith is made void, the promise is made of no effect.

Further, Paul reinforces this by telling us how he obtained the credit of righteousness. Once again, through faith, not of works (Rom 4:3). The exact same theme again and again.

Yes, that is Catholic teaching as well. We are Justified first by faith.

Des take a little time to think about what you are saying. You are saying that Paul referred to Abraham in works of the Law. Then you say it’s substantiated because Abraham offered his son on the altar.

Sorry you misunderstood my post as I can see now I wasn’t that clear. What I meant was that James proves Paul was referring to the works of the Law when speaking of Abraham once he said we are Justified by works of love through a living, not dead faith.

Can you see that this proves my point? The offering of Isaac was not a work of the Law it was simply a work.

Correct. Isaac was not a work of the law but a work of faith by Grace.

Additionally, James refers to Rahab as being considered righteous. She was not a Jew and therefore didn’t have the Law either. Neither of the examples James gives us were works of the Law.

Here again, we agree. The Works James was speaking about was the works of true faith, not works of the Law.

James is telling us that those who have true faith prove to have that faith by the actions of how they live their life. This aligns perfectly with Paul: Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, **created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. **

Proving true faith to man with works - James 2:18 … I will show my faith by what I do.

I v I, James isn’t saying He has to prove anything. He’s making a point to show what true faith looks like involving good works. The same kind that Justified Abraham (2:21), the same kind that isn’t a dead faith (2:14), and the same kind that saves a man (2:20).

 

[I_v_I]

My point is, faith is NOT alone. Faith can’t be isolated and say it is alone.

alone = not by works (of man)

Don’t take my word for it, take Paul’s: Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Grace comes first THEN faith. Therefore faith is NOT alone.

Amen! Grace is indeed God’s work on us causing us to have faith in Him. I thought it was understood that I was speaking of “works of man”. God does all the work in Salvation, man receives the free gift.

You do know there are 2 types of works spoken of here. They are not the same thing

• works = works of law (the 612 Mosaic laws)
• good works done in faith

The ONLY place “faith alone” appears in the entire bible is James 2:24. And the word NOT is in front of it.

Yes I do. I’ve addressed it several times.

“not by works” does not refer to Mosaic Law. Please explain how you come to this conclusion. You tell me I can’t say “alone” because it’s not in the text of Romans 4 so I showed why it is equivalent and now say “not by works (of man)” because it is in the text. Please show me why you believe this refers only to works of the Law.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is NOT alone. AND we must do good works. they are not an option

So are we “saved by grace through faith” or are we “saved by grace and works”?

Yes salvation is completed. That doesn’t mean EVERYONE can presume THEY are saved.

So is “salvation completed” or is “salvation possibly completed”? Does Paul tell us “we have been saved” or does he tell us “we may have been saved”?

A person who dies in mortal sin for example will go straight to hell. The easiest mortal sins to commit are sexual sins.

• fornication
• adultery, (which can also encompass divorce and remarriage, both commit adultery)
• homosexual activity
• and all the variations of immorality within these categories.

But there are other sins as well that are mortal and people oftentimes don’t take them seriously.

So Paul does tell us “you may have been saved”? Please share the verses that these mortal sins stem from. Are there any sins that aren’t mortal? Please share those with me with scripture reference. Does the Bible say “the wages of sin is death” or “the wages of mortal sin is death”?

Salvation is a gift from God. But there are alot of IF statements in scripture that make salvation statements conditional. Know this, you WILL be judged on what you do or don’t do.

Conditional upon faith? Sure.

My man, if I were judged on what I’ve done, I’d have a one way ticket to Hell. Thank God he has credited the righteousness of Christ to my account.

we do good works because we are told we are created to do them. Therefore, we must do them. If we DON’T do good works God will curse US like he did the fig tree.

When you do your “good works” are they from yourself or are they from God working through you?

If they are of yourself, then you must repent and believe and be filled with the Holy Spirit which will enable you to do good works that are pleasing to God.

Phil 2:13 for** it is God who works in you** to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Good works is grace and faith in action.

I agree. And both of these are from God.

Of course man freely makes a decision to do them. EVERYTHING we do requires a decision.

Perhaps I wasn’t totally clear. My aim was to point out that the ability to do good works comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not simply by the decision of man.

Of course salvation is from God. And God tells us in detail what is necessary for salvation. And Eph 2:10 tells us we MUST do good works. It’s not a suggestion. It’s a requirement.

He sure does. But why do you leave out the part that actually talks about the details for Salvation?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Those are the details of Salvation.

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is the effect of Salvation which leads to good works. The exact same thing James 2 tells us we must have in order to be considered to have true faith as apposed to a false profession.

works there = works of law. Don’t confuse works of law with good works.

You keep saying this. I would love to hear the reasoning behind your understanding. Please don’t just tell me that Paul always only speaks of works of the Law when he says this. I need more than that to be convinced.

God desires ***all ***to be saved. No one is outside of that desire. God doesn’t predestine ANYONE to hell. He desires NONE to be lost. OTOH, That doesn’t translate to everyone is therefore saved. Or that everyone will obey Him. We make choices and ultimately we are obedient to the faith we have been given or we are not. Hell exists because people disobey the instructions given for salvation, and if the disobedience is of a serious variety, and one ultimately dies in their condition, they won’t be saved. Scripture is clear on that.

Well my man. I wont kick that bee hive just yet lol. If we ever get to that point though, I’d refer you to Romans 9. It is grade A, eye bulging material!

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Interesting. Will enjoy doing some research on the Deuterocanonical books, I’m not familiar with these. Were there any quotes used from or references made of these texts in the NT? Why do you believe they were not included?

Yes, quite a few references. James Akin covered that here:
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm
Another great read on the references is John Salva’s work:
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

“Why do you believe they were not included?” They were included since the beginning, and when I mean beginning I mean when the 72 wrote the Septuagint 3rd-1st century BC (wish I can give you an exact date). Even all the Protestants from the revolution, I mean reformation, held on to the books. Jewish leader did away with the deutero books, after the destruction of the temple, because they prefigured Christ. After the reformation, Protestant theologians wanted them removed because they weren’t part of the Hebrew Scriptures, funny enough the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls solved that issue as the deutero books were found in Hebrew. Luther wanted them removed because they teach Catholic theology, never got his chance though and only had the books moved to the back of his bible. This was reaffirmed by a Scottish printing press whose members were freemasons that openly fought the Church; I believe their reasons for excluding the deutero books were “because they teach Catholic theology.” The reason why modern day Protestants keep them out of their bibles is mostly for that reason even though the earliest versions of King James have the deutero books. But the books have been and will ever be the word of God.

Quite sure your answer is very different from mine by the way you worded your statement. My answer is God, as He is the prevailing Author and Authority of all that occurs. He is most definitely the prevailing Author over His Word and its presentation. I will not definitively say that other books are not truth, however, I choose only to acknowledge those books He decided to present as His Word in the Bible as unquestionably true. If there are other “books of truth” that did not get canonized, then God for whatever reason did not want them to be so. If He did, you’d better believe they would have been.

We know He was inspiring the authors but who was God working through to decide what was the inspired word of God?

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

Yes, but good works follow. Paul is saying law + flesh won’t save, since the law supplies no power. One needs Jesus!

What do you think will be looked at on judgment day? We believe sanctification will be looked for…and has to be there. Protestants generally do not.

Do you believe Rom 2:5-10 will be fulfilled? It says “will render”…so I think it will!

Rom 2:5-10

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Do you believe sanctification has to be there?

Look at 1 Cor 11:32…**"**But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world."

This implies we have to be in shape on judgment day, correct? It’s not something like Jesus is “seen” in our place, etc. (Jesus is the judge).

That’s the big issue with the protestants…they separate justification (not being condemned) from sanctification…saying all that’s looked at is a once-for-all imptued righteousness. But that would invalidate the above passages, correct?

God bless you,

 

[steve_b]

alone = not by works (of man)

Don’t take my word for it, take Paul’s: Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

The name for such a belief i.e. salvation by your own efforts is called Pelagianism. It surfaced in the 400’s by Pelagius. And Pelagianism was declared a heresy and condemned by the Catholic Church. This is not news.

That does NOT mean good works aren’t essential to salvation. Otherwise Paul would be contradicting himself all over the place.
I:

Amen! Grace is indeed God’s work on us causing us to have faith in Him. I thought it was understood that I was speaking of “works of man”. God does all the work in Salvation, man receives the free gift.

God doesn’t work so that we can just sit back with our faith and relax. That’s a said faith and it’s worthless.
I:

“not by works” does not refer to Mosaic Law. Please explain how you come to this conclusion. You tell me I can’t say “alone” because it’s not in the text of Romans 4 so I showed why it is equivalent and now say “not by works (of man)” because it is in the text. Please show me why you believe this refers only to works of the Law.

Here is
Rom 4:

1 What then shall we say about * Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2* For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3* For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4* Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5* And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7* “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.” 9 Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11* He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13* The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14* If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15* For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants– not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all, 17* as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations” --in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18* In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” 19* He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22* That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” 23* But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25* who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification. "

Circumcision / uncircumcision, is the tip off to what/who Paul is talking about and to whom he is addressing… Circumcision is a Jewish law. It’s entrance into the dynamics of the LAW of the old covenant… Ergo Paul is talking about works of law when he says “works”. He is NOT talking about “good works”. That’s why there is a difference between “good works” and “works of law” in Eph 2: 8-10

to be continued

 

[steve_b]

continued

So Paul does tell us “you may have been saved”? Please share the verses that these mortal sins stem from. Are there any sins that aren’t mortal? Please share those with me with scripture reference. Does the Bible say *“the wages of sin is death” or “the wages of mortal sin is death”? *

Glad you asked

*16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. *. [1 Jn 5:16-17]

So what’s the deal? “not all sins are deadly” [1 Jn 5:17] yet the wages of sin is death… [Rm 6:23] and everyone sins. So how is it not all sins lead to death? Is this a contradiction or a distinction? Paul is talking about the flesh ( because everyone sins) and John is talkinjg about grace in the soul.

Sanctifying Grace is what dies from mortal sin in our immortal soul. Without sanctifying grace, the soul, can’t go to heaven. Sanctifying grace must be restored once lost. Non mortal sins (venial sin) wound the soul but don’t kill sanctifying grace. Because Mortal sin is such a grave offense against God it kills sanctifying grace in the soul. That’s what John AND Paul are saying but in different ways. It’s why scripture names some sins, that if one dies with them on their soul won’t go to heaven . When you see THAT warning, you know the sin is mortal. That means the soul spends eternity in hell.

btw, the soul being immortal

• doesn’t sleep
• doesn’t die
• has memory intellect and will fully functional for all eternity
• this power enables us to experience fully, the next life.
• and the second the body dies the soul leaves the body and is judged by Jesus. One knows immediately where they will be spending eternity.

**which are the deadly (mortal) sins that scripture mentions can send a soul to hell? **

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious (schismatic, heretic etc)man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man

Notice how many times sexual sins are brought up? It’s been said, more souls go to hell for sexual sins than any other sin. Look at how many people today, sleep around, live with their significant other without marriage, have abortions, homosexual activity, divorce and remarriage without annulment of the previous marriage, (that’s adultery also)…etc. and think nothing of it.

Notice also, non mortal sin can be prayed about and God forgives the sin. But not so for mortal sin. Why not? Notice that John makes that distinction as follows?

[1 Jn 5:]
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that

Catholics get rid of mortal sin in sacramental confession. Because priests have been given that power to forgive sins…ALL sins [Jn 20:23]

Q: How does a non- Catholic then, get rid of mortal sin, when scripture says mortal sin is not necessarily forgiven by prayer like non deadly sins are?

to be continued

 

[steve_b]

continued

My man, if I were judged on what I’ve done, I’d have a one way ticket to Hell. Thank God he has credited the righteousness of Christ to my account.

I refer back to my previous post.

You have seen the list of mortal sins. Are you still in any of them? Don’t overlook schism.
I:

When you do your “good works” are they from yourself or are they from God working through you?

Of course it’s God working through me. But I’m still cooperating with Him. I’m not a robot.
I:

If they are of yourself, then you must repent and believe and be filled with the Holy Spirit which will enable you to do good works that are pleasing to God.
Phil 2:13 for** it is God who works in you** to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

When Pelagianism and semi pelagianism popped up, the Catholic Church condemned them over 1500+ years ago.
I:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

true
I:

Perhaps I wasn’t totally clear. My aim was to point out that the ability to do good works comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not simply by the decision of man.

iow we cooperate with grace.
I:

He sure does. But why do you leave out the part that actually talks about the details for Salvation?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Those are the details of Salvation.

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This is the effect of Salvation which leads to good works. The exact same thing James 2 tells us we must have in order to be considered to have true faith as apposed to a false profession.

There are no details there. It’s at best summary statements. I gave details for example when I quoted Mt 25 in the seperation of sheep and goats. All those people being judged, both good and bad, called God Lord. That didn’t save the ones who didn’t do good works. They otoh, were cursed and condemned.
I:

You keep saying this. I would love to hear the reasoning behind your understanding. Please don’t just tell me that Paul always only speaks of works of the Law when he says this. I need more than that to be convinced.

refer to my last post. Paul distinguishes between works of law and good works.
I:

Well my man. I wont kick that bee hive just yet lol. If we ever get to that point though, I’d refer you to Romans 9. It is grade A, eye bulging material!

Well my man, you DO realize this letter was written to the Church of Rome. I think the Church of Rome understands this book quite well.

 

[MrJaundicedEye]

I’d just like to point out, for anyone on the same wavelength as me, that the original poster “KJV888” only posted once, and never responded to any of the subsequent posts. This is thread #1,386,455 about faith and works since Al Gore invented the internet, and this one was lit off by an obvious and unimpressive troll. I wonder if that is good or bad.

 

[Philthy]

While I agree Paul and James were referring to “works” in two different senses, I don’t agree with your conclusion. Paul is telling us that “works” are not a part of receiving Salvation from the Lord (Romans 3:28). He tells us it is only through faith that Salvation is given.

We enter into salvation by faith, but faith alone does not get us to Heaven. The OP’s position - and yours as well - overlooks the fact that salvation is not instantaneous, complete and permanent at the moment one comes to faith. Our salvation begins with faith (what Paul addresses in Ephesians 2: 8&9) but requires perseverance in loving God primarily through loving others (What James 2 addresses). If we fail to persevere in faith, hope and love the salvation that we received by faith will unfortunately be wasted.

On the other hand, James is telling us that anyone who professes to have faith and yet they do not show their faith outwardly through their lives, then they are false professors and they deceive themselves. Check out the context of James, the focus is on those who claim to believe yet do not live as believers do.

The context is perfectly obvious from the intro verse 14: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
So the context is clear: can a faith without works save? And the answer, (from verse 26) is no: “For just as the body without a spirit is dead so faith, if it does not have works, is dead.” Dead faith does not save you; a living faith does, and all living faith - if presented the opportunity- has works.
Now it is clear that your take on it is that the discussion is solely on one who “claims to have faith”, but you are mistaken. While the issue may have been introduced by James in this fashion for very practical reasons(ie there were some among them doing exactly that:claiming to have faith), he makes a number of statements regarding the relationship between faith and works that do not include the “claim” concept, but is merely described as “faith”.
Verse 17: So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Please note that he is not discussing a "claimed faith: notice how he doesn’t say a “claimed faith”, if it does not have works, is dead? He says, "…faith, if it does not have works, is dead.
Verse 20: “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that* faith without works* is useless?”
Same idea: it is not merely a “claimed” faith being discussed here - ANY faith without works is…“useless”.
Verse 26: “For just as the body without a spirit is dead so faith, if it does not have works, is dead.”

The reason the two do not contradict one another is because Paul is speaking of works before Salvation and James is speaking of works after Salvation.

This I agree with.

Works are not needed to obtain Salvation, however, they are needed to prove to others we are indeed Saved.

This, however, is very poorly worded IMHO. Works are not needed to obtain salvation, they are needed to complete our faith in order to be judged worthy of Heaven. Again you seem to be laboring under the illusion that being saved at a point in our lives guarantees that at the end of our lives we will go to Heaven (ie OSAS). James addresses this directly…James 2:22-24 “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. T****hus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” In short, Abraham’s faith was active along with his works and THUS was he “credited with righteousness”.

In 8 and 9 we are told that Salvation is obtained through faith alone apart from works. Verse 10 tells us exactly what James tells us in his book. That after Salvation, we are led to do good works by the Holy Spirit which now dwells in us. These are the works that attest to others that we are truly Saved.

Nope. The stakes are much higher than that: these works are the good deeds prepared in advance by God for us to walk in. They are His Will for us. And if we choose to reject them, we are rejecting God and His will for us. It is that simple.
Have you bothered to read the rest of Ephesians BTW? If what you are purporting were true, Paul would never say this (Ch 5):So be imitators of God,* as beloved children,and live in love…Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones…Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure…person has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.
Paul is warning them (he does exactly the same thing in 1 Cor 6 and Galatians 5) that their behavior has eternal consequences, and one of them is that you can lose your salvation.

 

[I_v_I]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe there were Chapters or numbered verses in the the Epistle of Paul to the Romans as we have in our Bible’s of today. So if we read the end of the Chapter 3 before and continue with that in mind while going to Chapter 4, it would seem problematic to suggest all of the sudden, Paul is talking about all kinds of works, when just prior it was about the works of the Law.

My argument has never been that I don’t agree because there is a chapter division. I don’t see why he couldn’t switch from works of the law to “works” in general without issue. I think it is more problematic to suppose Paul used someone without the Law to make a point about the Law.

This can be shown even further up in verse 13 of Chapter 4 when it’s clear He’s still talking about the works of the Law. I mean if we still keep with your interpretation here, He technically shouldn’t have used the Law as another example when speaking about the promise of Abraham being the heir of the world through the justice of faith right.

I don’t have a problem with Paul switching from “works of the law” to “works” in general, back and forth. These methods are needed in order to make certain points when comparing Salvation to those who have the Law and those who don’t.

The point of this chapter is to prove that it is faith and faith alone that justifies man before God. Be that faith from one with the Law (Jews) or those without (Gentiles). This is why Paul switches back and forth. He is saying that whether you have the law and are circumcised or don’t have the law and are not circumcised, righteousness before God is by faith apart from works.

Verse 13 tells us directly that it was not by law that Abraham received the promise and in fact we know it couldn’t have been because he didn’t have it.

Why didn’t Paul simply write “works of the law” when he was speaking specifically of Abraham at the beginning of ch 4? He obviously had no problem writing it later in verse 13 as you point out. Do you think this was just coincidence or could it be that Paul was attempting to make a point by doing so?

After juxtaposing those with the law/circumcision to those without the law/uncircumcision, Paul comes to the conclusion in verse 16 that they all are Justified by faith, apart from works of the law(Jews) and apart from works(Gentiles).

In verse 16 we also see that Paul was well aware that Abraham was not of the law and groups him accordingly. If this is the case, why would Paul use him as an example of someone who was of the Law in verse 2? He wouldn’t. He would have used Moses or someone else under the law. He purposely used Abraham because he was not and therefore we should understand that “works” is just that and not “works of the law”.

Sorry you misunderstood my post as I can see now I wasn’t that clear. What I meant was that James proves Paul was referring to the works of the Law when speaking of Abraham once he said we are Justified by works of love through a living, not dead faith.

Although we have only had very little conversation, I know your deductive skills are better than that. James can’t prove Paul was referring to the works of the law because there is no connection between Abraham and the law.

Correct. Isaac was not a work of the law but a work of faith by Grace. … Here again, we agree. The Works James was speaking about was the works of true faith, not works of the Law.

Exactly. So James uses Abraham as an example of one who did a good work apart from the law, just as Paul did in Romans 2.

I v I, James isn’t saying He has to prove anything. He’s making a point to show what true faith looks like involving good works. The same kind that Justified Abraham (2:21), the same kind that isn’t a dead faith (2:14), and the same kind that saves a man (2:20).

This is incorrect. In the same way Paul was comparing two groups James is using the same technique to make a point.

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Here James asks if someone who CLAIMS to have faith (i.e. a professing Christian), but does not exhibit any fruits of the Spirit, is their profession of faith true or false?

2:15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Here we see James gives an example that shows the worthlessness of a professed faith that bares no fruit.

2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Here we see the blatant comparison James is using to make his point.
“Show me your faith without deeds” - The false faith of a professor

vs.

“I will show you my faith by my deeds” - The true believing Christian who bares fruits of the Spirit.

 

[I_v_I]

I believe their reasons for excluding the deutero books were “because they teach Catholic theology.” The reason why modern day Protestants keep them out of their bibles is mostly for that reason even though the earliest versions of King James have the deutero books.

While I am ignorant to these texts, I would be skeptical of this statement because of discussions like we are having right now. We are reading the “exact” same words and understand them two totally different ways. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder it would seem.

We know He was inspiring the authors but who was God working through to decide what was the inspired word of God?

My point was that God controls it all. Whether directly inspired by the Holy Spirit as in the authors or simply God’s sovereign will. Whatever His reasons, He chose for them to be separated.

 

[I_v_I]

The name for such a belief i.e. salvation by your own efforts is called Pelagianism. It surfaced in the 400’s by Pelagius. And Pelagianism was declared a heresy and condemned by the Catholic Church. This is not news.

That is good to hear. Please tell me how you believe Salvation is attained. And when you say works tell me who is the one initiating the work.

That does NOT mean good works aren’t essential to salvation.

Good works are essential… but they are essential to prove our Salvation not to attain it (Rom 4, Eph 2, James 2). If we attain our Salvation with faith+works we could boast and we would have worked for and earned our free gift.

Circumcision / uncircumcision, is the tip off to what/who Paul is talking about and to whom he is addressing… Circumcision is a Jewish law. It’s entrance into the dynamics of the LAW of the old covenant… Ergo Paul is talking about works of law when he says “works”. He is NOT talking about “good works”. That’s why there is a difference between “good works” and “works of law” in Eph 2: 8-10

Steve tell me what your understanding of this chapter is please.

You realize you put circumcision/uncircumcision right? Then you seem to forget and then only see “circumcision”. Why is that? “Uncircumcision” is still there as you have already attested to. Does this mean I can say Paul is only talking about those without the law and totally disregard “circumcision”? Of course not! We must see them both and realize the chapter is about both those with the law and those without. Meaning we can expect references to both (i.e. circumcision/works of the law, uncircumcision/works).

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

While I am ignorant to these texts, I would be skeptical of this statement because of discussions like we are having right now. We are reading the “exact” same words and understand them two totally different ways. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder it would seem.

Maybe, maybe not. At any rate I hope you read them. Best translations I suggest are RSV-CE, RSV-2CE, and Rheims. NAB is great as well, though I’m not a fan of some it’s poorly translated verses.

My point was that God controls it all. Whether directly inspired by the Holy Spirit as in the authors or simply God’s sovereign will. Whatever His reasons, He chose for them to be separated.

Are the Gospel of Thomas inspired? What of Judas? There are various of other texts that are not in Sacred Scripture. For what reason are they excluded from Sacred Scripture?

 

[I_v_I]

continued

Glad you asked

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. . [1 Jn 5:16-17]

So what’s the deal? “not all sins are deadly” [1 Jn 5:17] yet the wages of sin is death… [Rm 6:23] and everyone sins. So how is it not all sins lead to death? Is this a contradiction or a distinction? Paul is talking about the flesh ( because everyone sins) and John is talkinjg about grace in the soul.

Sanctifying Grace is what dies from mortal sin in our immortal soul. Without sanctifying grace, the soul, can’t go to heaven. Sanctifying grace must be restored once lost. Non mortal sins (venial sin) wound the soul but don’t kill sanctifying grace. Because Mortal sin is such a grave offense against God it kills sanctifying grace in the soul. That’s what John AND Paul are saying but in different ways. It’s why scripture names some sins, that if one dies with them on their soul won’t go to heaven . When you see THAT warning, you know the sin is mortal. That means the soul spends eternity in hell.

btw, the soul being immortal

• doesn’t sleep
• doesn’t die
• has memory intellect and will fully functional for all eternity
• this power enables us to experience fully, the next life.
• and the second the body dies the soul leaves the body and is judged by Jesus. One knows immediately where they will be spending eternity.

**which are the deadly (mortal) sins that scripture mentions can send a soul to hell? **

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious (schismatic, heretic etc)man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man

Notice how many times sexual sins are brought up? It’s been said, more souls go to hell for sexual sins than any other sin. Look at how many people today, sleep around, live with their significant other without marriage, have abortions, homosexual activity, divorce and remarriage without annulment of the previous marriage, (that’s adultery also)…etc. and think nothing of it.

Notice also, non mortal sin can be prayed about and God forgives the sin. But not so for mortal sin. Why not? Notice that John makes that distinction as follows?

[1 Jn 5:]
16 If any one *sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life *for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that

Catholics get rid of mortal sin in sacramental confession. Because priests have been given that power to forgive sins…ALL sins [Jn 20:23]

Q: How does a non- Catholic then, get rid of mortal sin, when scripture says mortal sin is not necessarily forgiven by prayer like non deadly sins are?

to be continued

All I can say at this point is wow. This is another bee hive I’ll leave for the time being. Wow.

 

[I_v_I]

continued
I refer back to my previous post.

You have seen the list of mortal sins. Are you still in any of them? Don’t overlook schism.

Again, I am “in” no sin. I “have been Saved by grace through faith”.

Of course it’s God working through me. But I’m still cooperating with Him. I’m not a robot.

Well GOD must feel really blessed that you “cooperate” with HIM. I don’t cooperate with my LORD. I am simply a servant who must yield to his MASTER.

Isaiah 10:5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
6 I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says.
9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria—
11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”

12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:

“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this,
and by my wisdom, because I have understanding.
I removed the boundaries of nations,
I plundered their treasures;
like a mighty one I subdued[a] their kings.
14 As one reaches into a nest,
so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations;
as people gather abandoned eggs,
so I gathered all the countries;
not one flapped a wing,
or opened its mouth to chirp.’”

15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it,
or the saw boast against the one who uses it?
As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up,
or a club brandish the one who is not wood!

There are no details there. It’s at best summary statements. I gave details for example when I quoted Mt 25 in the seperation of sheep and goats. All those people being judged, both good and bad, called God Lord. That didn’t save the ones who didn’t do good works. They otoh, were cursed and condemned.

There are no details of Salvation in this???

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Again, wow. I could literally bold every single word.

refer to my last post. Paul distinguishes between works of law and good works.

I still haven’t heard why Abraham was used instead of someone who actually had the law since you believe Paul was speaking of works of the law (Rom 4:2).

Well my man, you DO realize this letter was written to the Church of Rome. I think the Church of Rome understands this book quite well.

Not sure why this matters. Why do you think that? Do you believe that church was infallible?

 

[I_v_I]

Maybe, maybe not. At any rate I hope you read them. Best translations I suggest are RSV-CE, RSV-2CE, and Rheims. NAB is great as well, though I’m not a fan of some it’s poorly translated verses.

Thanks for all the great info.

Are the Gospel of Thomas inspired? What of Judas? There are various of other texts that are not in Sacred Scripture. For what reason are they excluded from Sacred Scripture?

I do not believe either of these are inspired. Like I said though, there is a possibility that there are inspired books out there that are not canonized. This does not bother me however. Those that are in the Bible are there by the Will of God, those that are excluded are excluded by the Will of God. That’s enough for me.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

I do not believe either of these are inspired. Like I said though, there is a possibility that there are inspired books out there that are not canonized. This does not bother me however. Those that are in the Bible are there by the Will of God, those that are excluded are excluded by the Will of God. That’s enough for me.

And God’s Will was being exercised through whom to decide what was canon? Note, were speaking of who canonized Scripture, not who wrote it.