Good work = salvation is it true?

[Philthy]

I don’t believe this is unambiguous.

I can tell this is gonna be fun

Let me ask the question another way. Is it the Catholic position that Romans 4:2 refers only to “works of the law” when Paul writes “works”? Y or N

No it is not.

If that is not clear enough, then I will clarify with, “N”.

Mind you, I have no problem answering the question although you’ll seem to think I do lol. I just want to get a clear answer on the current issue before moving on

.
You now have a clear answer to the question but that does not clarify the issue, as I stated previously.

Maybe you are a victim of entering the discussion a bit late, but this does need to be cleared up. The claim was made that Paul was only referring to OT “works of the law” in an attempt to prove we are indeed justified before God by our NT works. Obviously my position is contrary to this so the discussion began. In order for me to understand Catholic understanding of the text I need to know if this is standard Catholic teaching.

Standard Catholic teaching, which began expressing itself prior to the establishment of the NT, expresses itself clearly by speaking more directly than Scripture often does. So if you want “Standard Catholic teaching” it is this: the moral choices we make during our lives have an impact on whether or not we will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell.

Just looking for a Y or N

So am I…on the issue of OSAS

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

Pretty sure I’m not off base. What verses are you using to support your claim that we are not to “judge” whether or not someone is a believer?

The onus is upon you to support your claim that we are to prove ourselves to others. James doesnt say it, nor does Paul and yet you offered that concept as the means through which James 2 should be interpreted. Although I did not claim to derive my statement from Scripture, I certainly see Matt 7 as supporting it, ““Stop judging,* that you may not be judged.”

Seems that would cause lots of problems with false teachings.

I disagree. Individuals who make such judgments without license to do so have produced and continue to produce the vast majority of false doctrine. In fact, that is why non-Catholics - Protestants in particular - have so many contradictory doctrines: individual judgments. Christ established a visible Church with his Apostles as the “pillar and foundation of Truth” through a unique charism of the Holy Spirit. They subsequently passed on that honor and responsibility to others by the laying on of hands. The apostolic faith given to the original Apostles remains completely intact and recognizable by virtue of the visible and verifiable hierarchy established by Christ.

Aren’t you judging my doctrine?

Yes I am, but I am not judging your salvation - the latter being what I admonished, not the former. Further, I judge you (and I) has having no authority whatsoever to promulgate doctrine as anything more than personal opinion.

It is only “poorly articulated” if you don’t agree, otherwise it’s articulated well enough.

It is poorly articulated because a range of interpretations present themselves which are, at a minimum, confusing and at worst contradictory and therefore one is unable to agree without knowing precisely what was intended by your comment. When you throw out the terms “salvation” and “saved” I don’t precisely what you mean. That is why I differentiated my understanding of the terms (and supported that understanding from the verse itself) and why that differentiation results in a potentially different understanding than your relatively ambiguous use of the terms. And let the record show that you failed to address what I actually said in favor of claiming that your statements were “clear enough if you agree with them”. That really isn’t genuine communication.

Blessings

 

[Philthy]

It definitely has and it seems this “mega theme” was lost on Jesus as well, so I think I’m in good company.

Well, that’s great that you “think” your in good company, but lets see if you will actually defend your claim - that faith APART FROM A RESPONSE BY THE FAITHFUL was rewarded, or if you will simply expect others to arrive at the conclusion you do…

Insert a bunch of uninterpreted scripture vs here

The fact of the matter is that Jesus’ focus was always on faith and belief.

I will simply reiterate my original claim, rather than the straw man you have constructed: Not a single person was healed who did no ACT ON THEIR FAITH. Not one of the verses you sited contradicts that claim and so you have done nothing to further your argument. If you disagree, show me precisely which person was saved by faith alone rather than by faith combined with action(approaching, touching, speaking, etc.) What you have done instead is shown that faith is necessary, but we all already agree with that. What you are supposed to be doing is showing that acting on faith is UNNECESSARY, since salvation is by faith alone.

No attention to “works” what so ever. Why do you think that is?

As has already pointed out, but to which you have chosen not to respond, Christ speaks of works plenty and does so in relationship to salvation in Matt 25. He does so in plenty of other places both in the Gospels and in the rest of Scripture. But you apparently ignore all (“no attention…whatsoever”) because, IMHO, you have a theological agenda or, perhaps a blindspot.

Due to the evidence it is much more likely that you’ll are reading your beliefs into the text rather than me.

What evidence precisely? Your “belief” that Matt 25 is apparently too complicated for you to explain even though it seems very straightforward as to it’s relationship to Heaven (final salvation) and works?

Follow Jesus and you’ll never go wrong… follow man and…

Follow Jesus how, exactly? What he said was necessary to follow him was to “take up our cross daily”. I’ve always thought of our cross as the burdens and lures of this world and that taking it up means by grace, through faith, to love our neighbor and to avoid sin through denial of self. But perhaps you have a more “complicated” understanding that you’d like to share. As it stands I have no idea what you mean when you say “Follow Jesus” - you listed it after he performed a number of miraculous healings - should we be doing that?? That would be a logical conclusion from your post, but I doubt it’s what you mean. Once again you have allowed ambiguity and the presumption that your thoughts are apparently universally self-evident thoughts prevent you from explaining yourself. I do look forward to hearing you clarify some of these topics although I’m getting the sense that we should pick one as it relates to salvation and go from there…

Blessings!

 

[steve_b]

We are all the same. Nothing in my flesh is any different than what was in Hitler’s. The only difference is God. If it had not been for the grace of God who knows what I would be. All the bad I do is done of my flesh. If I ever want to boast, all I’ll have to boast about are the evil acts I’ve committed. All the good I have ever done has come from the Holy Spirit working through me, not from I v I.

Aren’t ALL people

• given grace?
• loved by God?
• given opportunity by grace, to be saved?

For example, do you think

1. • Hitler, and Judas, etc made their own bad choices freely inspite of grace to do otherwise in their life
   • or do you think Hitler and Judas etc. had no choice, grace was not available to them, and were deliberately predestined by God to be evil.
   I:
   

   Apart from the Spirit of God, we are evil. All of us (Rom 3:9-18).

   Paul is talking there, about everyone being under the power of sin. But is there anyplace on earth where the spirit of God is NOT present?
   I:
   

   Have you ever seen a verse in the Bible that said man of his flesh could do anything good? So why did some in Matt 25 do “good works”? Was it because the flesh of some believers were better than others and therefore worked with grace more so than others? Or was it because the Holy Spirit led those that did good works to do so and did not lead the others to do so?

   Since All are given grace, some worked with grace others didn’t.
   I:
   

   As for both groups calling Him Lord, these are the same two groups of people James spoke of in the 2nd chapter. And the “same” two groups spoken of in Matt 7:21-23. Some truly believe, are filled with the Holy Spirit and led to do good works. Others falsely profess, do not have the Spirit and do evil “works” of their flesh.

   Obviously then, good works is the sign faith is alive.
   I:
   

   Eph 2:10 tells us WE WILL do good works because we are filled with the Spirit of God.
   
   It even makes this more clear by telling us that these are “good works” that God Himself has prepared. We were not and could not have been the source of the good work because all we can do of our flesh is evil.

   No one is saying we are the source of the good works.
   
   Here’s something for consideration regarding good works
   
   " God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life*."* (Romans 2:6)
   
   and
   
   "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." (Galatians 6:7)
   
   The reason a man will reap eternal life for doing good, is because
   
   “we areGod’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” [Eph 2:10]
   
   Therefore, when God rewards us with eternal life for doing good, He rewards in us HIS own work that HE prepared in advance, which He created us to do. ergo, He crowns His own work in us. That’s why Paulsays, it’s no longer me, but Christ in me doing the work.
   I:
   

   James tells us we must do these good works in order to prove our profession to be true and if we don’t then we have a false faith that does not save and we will end up in the goat fold or the group that Jesus tells “I never knew you…”.

   true

 

[Philthy]

And how would you know if it is irrelevant? Must be because a man has already given you the complete infallible understanding of this text.

Not at all - allow me to explain. We are debating in an apologetics forum. Everyone has opinions, but one person claiming to believe a particular opinion to be true is irrelevant as it relates to actually establishing truth in an apologetics debate. Does that make more sense?

I have no burdens nor contradictions from this or any other text, nor do I have the burden of placing my eternal Salvation in the hands of Popes.

Of course not - you are totally free and that last little comment you threw in demonstrates your command not only of Catholic theology, but your command over your own temper.

lol @ “try dealing with reality”. Such arrogance and so little understanding. How bout you try dealing with scripture instead of your “reality”?

I’d be happy to deal with debating precisely what we can and cannot infer from Scripture. Let’s see if, once again, you actually present your argument or simply expect me to understand what you infer from certain verses:

Galations 5: 16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19** The acts of the flesh** are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

It looks like you are back to your old games. Let me ask you a question from verse 19: with which part of your body are you jealous?

So the God you believe in needs your cooperation too?

I never said that.

My LORD doesn’t need anything from me. Nothing at all.

Im sure you believe this to be relevant to some point, but it’s relevance escapes me. God requires nothing from anyone or anything…so what?

My God never fails!

Nor mine.

My God never attempts!

When I wander like a lost sheep, my God constantly calls me in an attempt to return me to his fold…does yours? That seems like attempting to me…but, again you might wish to explain it’s relevance to the topic.

My God never asks me to do anything.

Not even to repent and believe?

When a true believer sins, they sin of their own flesh, apart from the Spirit of God. At that time the believer is “walking by the flesh”.Anytime they do good they are “walking by the Spirit” apart from the flesh.

Oh - that clears it up: the flesh always does the walking, but when it’s good walking we call it an “act of the Spirit” and when it is bad walking we call it an “act of the flesh”. So back to the good works that God plans for us, which don’t include these works of the flesh. What exactly is it called when we fail to walk in the good works that God prepared in advance for us? Is there any eternal consequence to doing this?

I see the God you believe in is able to be overpowered by man. This is not a characteristic of my God.

Not at all, God is omnipotent according to Catholic theology. I understand that it is difficult for you to actually address my comments and that out of frustration you mischaracterize them. Why don’t you tell us why you believe I believe that God can be “overpowered by man”, and perhaps we can discuss it.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

"Philthy:

That’s a bold statement - that the books of “the Bible” are there “by the Will of God” - was that revealed to you personally or publicly?? How exactly do you know this?

Not bold at all. Revealed personally and publicly.

You received a personal revelation of what is and what is not the canon of Scripture? Awesome! Would you care to share it with us? It will be interesting to see when it was publicly revealed as well…

Didn’t forget to mention anything. I was not asked to mention this. Further, the particular canon is not the issue. The issue is the teachings and the understanding of these teachings.

Uhhh, this is a huge issue, and you have officially been asked - twice. If you cannot state what is Scripture and what is not (ie the canon) then how can you throw verses around as if they are the word of God from which we are to determine our “teachings”?

We are not Saved by the canon. We are Saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. Whatever canon that can be put together without contradiction subtraction or addition to what Jesus or the apostles taught is just fine.

You’re dodging and not masterfully! You are actually starting to sound very Catholic here…how would we ever know what Jesus and the Apostles taught apart from Scripture…hmmm.
I understand better than you think why you must follow this road…

It seems the focus here is on the wrong thing. Undoubtedly many people have been Saved after reading only portions of scripture, and others not reading it at all, but simply hearing parts of it. Of course the more the merrier, but a beautiful aspect of the Bible is that you don’t need it all to know enough of the Truth to be Saved. As long as you understand who Jesus is, your sinful nature and that you need to place your faith in Him only, you can be Saved.

Scripture is unnecessary for salvation - got it!

 

[Philthy]

Forgive me for not taking your expert understanding of scripture.

No offense taken! I, like you, am dust - God did not leave me in charge of preserving the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

No one ever said believers don’t sin constantly sir.

But you did attempt to convince us that James 2 is about how we can recognize a true believer (ie by their works), and now it turns out that you admit that some believers appear to be a lot like unbelievers: they sin “constantly”. That seems to reduce your arguments so far on James 2 to be nothing but folly. Here’s what we can gather so far:
Sinners can appear to do the same works - both good and bad - as believers, and judging another’s belief status based on works is inaccurate. This - in addition to the other failings I pointed out - is why your interpretation of James 2 is found to be so lacking IMHO.

“For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

Clear as a bell if you can bear to hear it…and it has nothing to do with proving anything to anyone else.

Blessings!

 

[I_v_I]

Aren’t ALL people

• given grace?
• loved by God?
• given opportunity by grace, to be saved?

Steve you are trying to start something lol.

All given grace, yes.

All loved by God, no.

All given opportunity by grace to be Saved, no.

And yes I do believe in “once Saved always Saved”.
For example, do you think

1. 
   

   • Hitler, and Judas, etc made their own bad choices freely inspite of grace to do otherwise in their life
   • or do you think Hitler and Judas etc. had no choice, grace was not available to them, and were deliberately predestined by God to be evil.

   A little of both. I believe Hitler and Judas did exactly as they wanted to do. They acted on the desires of their will. At the same time however, I believe nothing happens unless it is in the Sovereign will of God and therefore all that happens, happens just as God intends it to happen including the actions of Hitler and Judas.
   

   Paul is talking there, about everyone being under the power of sin. But is there anyplace on earth where the spirit of God is NOT present?

   Well I think it is clear that natural man does not have the indwelling of the Spirit. However, this does not mean the Spirit can’t work on natural man of course. As for the Spirit of God being everywhere, I can’t say for sure, but even if He is I know He doesn’t act the same in all places or all people at all times.
   
   1 Cor. 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
   

   Since All are given grace, some worked with grace others didn’t.

   Grace is not an on off switch or one size fits all. There is the grace that allows everyone who is living to live, there is grace that moves someone to do a “good work”, there is grace that convicts a natural man of his sinful nature and brings him/her to Christ, etc.
   

   Obviously then, good works is the sign faith is alive.

   Do you not believe that someone who is not a believer, can do a “good work”?
   

   No one is saying we are the source of the good works.

   I hear you’ll saying you are not the source, however, you all are saying the “good work” needed you in the sense of “power from you” in order for it to be done. Your faith + works = God + you.
   
   My understanding is all the power to do a “good work” comes from God. Not because of my flesh, but despite it. My faith + works = God - me(power).
   
   You’ll believe a sort of power comes from you that God needs in order to work a good work through you. I believe God commands a good work to be done and **MAKES **one willing to do it, He doesn’t ask one to do it. My God does not need our help to do anything. He is indeed all powerful.
   

   Therefore, when God rewards us with eternal life for doing good, He rewards in us HIS own work that HE prepared in advance, which He created us to do. ergo, He crowns His own work in us. That’s why Paulsays, it’s no longer me, but Christ in me doing the work.

   It sounds like I would agree with this statement, but this is contrary to what you’ll have been saying. I believe Paul is saying, it is God and God alone doing the work in him. But you’ll are saying, it is God and you doing the work.
   
   ex. your quote "Since All are given grace, some worked with grace others didn’t. "

 

[I_v_I]

I can tell this is gonna be fun

Seems this is your trouble. Too busy having fun and not busy enough reading for understanding.
.

You now have a clear answer to the question but that does not clarify the issue, as I stated previously.

Just because it doesn’t clarify any issues for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t clarify any issues.

Standard Catholic teaching, which began expressing itself prior to the establishment of the NT, expresses itself clearly by speaking more directly than Scripture often does. So if you want “Standard Catholic teaching” it is this: the moral choices we make during our lives have an impact on whether or not we will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell.

Wow! This is the best confession I’ve ever heard from a Catholic stating they trust the teachings of man over God. I am in awe.

How many early churches in the Bible can you find that were perfect?

How many can you find that were imperfect?

Now tell me why you believe early church practices should be followed.

Are their teachings “speaking more directly” and aligning with scripture, or could they be “speaking more directly” and not aligned with scripture.

You have just admitted that you use early church traditions to interpret scripture. As if early churches were infallible (rolling eyes). This is the whole problem.

 

[I_v_I]

The onus is upon you to support your claim that we are to prove ourselves to others. James doesnt say it, nor does Paul and yet you offered that concept as the means through which James 2 should be interpreted.

It’s not just about proving yourself to others, but also to yourself. It is a chapter that tells us what we should expect from true believers and that if we don’t see these things then we have room to question. It tells us not to believe we are secure if we do not show fruit of the Spirit. And it also tells us that if we don’t see the fruit of the Spirit in professing believers that we may need to intervene to make sure the professing person understands the actual effects of Salvation.

Although I did not claim to derive my statement from Scripture, I certainly see Matt 7 as supporting it, ““Stop judging,* that you may not be judged.”

I would hope you are “claiming” all your statements are “derived” from Scripture.

Mat 7: 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, **first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. **

Matt 7 tells us to not make hypocritical judgments, but to make right judgments after first getting ourselves right. Again, you just see the part of text that you like and leave the rest behind.

… Individuals who make such judgments without license to do so have produced and continue to produce the vast majority of false doctrine.

lol. I agree totally.

The apostolic faith given to the original Apostles remains completely intact and recognizable by virtue of the visible and verifiable hierarchy established by Christ.

Enter “individuals without license”.

Yes I am, but I am not judging your salvation - the latter being what I admonished, not the former.

Firstly, when I wrote the word judge, I wrote it because you phrased your question or statement with that word. I therefore wrote “judge” in quotes. A more accurate word would be discern.

No one can discern ultimate Salvation besides God. However, we can sometimes discern whether or not a professing brother or sister(including ourselves) exhibits fruit of the Spirit. If we do not see these fruits, then we should be concerned for the state of the persons soul.

It is poorly articulated because a range of interpretations present themselves which are, at a minimum, confusing and at worst contradictory and therefore one is unable to agree without knowing precisely what was intended by your comment. When you throw out the terms “salvation” and “saved” I don’t precisely what you mean. That is why I differentiated my understanding of the terms (and supported that understanding from the verse itself) and why that differentiation results in a potentially different understanding than your relatively ambiguous use of the terms. And let the record show that you failed to address what I actually said in favor of claiming that your statements were “clear enough if you agree with them”. That really isn’t genuine communication.

Like I said, only if you disagree. If you agreed it would be fine. As far as my clarification of Salvation, I had already informed you of what I was waiting for before addressing that topic so you shouldn’t have expected a clarification.

Now for the clarification: I believe when the Lord God Saves He Saves. He does not attempt to Save, He does not try to Save, He does not simply want to Save without full ability, He cannot be overpowered by man, He indeed has all power and Saves all He wills to Save! My God never fails and my God needs no help from man to accomplish His will.

Once Saved always Saved!

 

[Philthy]

Steve you are trying to start something lol.
All given grace, yes.
All loved by God, no.
All given opportunity by grace to be Saved, no.

Ironic for me that you were poking fun at my God!! To think of God as being anything but all-loving (God is love) and wanting all to come to the salvation for which they were created is, well, not really the God I have come to know and love. “For God so loved the world…” as John 3:16 says. All means all, of course, and the world is sinful man. “But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us…” expresses the same idea. “…we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all…” 2Tim:4

And yes I do believe in “once Saved always Saved”.

Im shocked! No offense, but it is at best a worthless theology and at worst a dangerous one.

A little of both. I believe Hitler and Judas did exactly as they wanted to do. They acted on the desires of their will. At the same time however, I believe nothing happens unless it is in the Sovereign will of God and therefore all that happens, happens just as God intends it to happen including the actions of Hitler and Judas.

There are a number of problems with this reasoning, but one of the greatest IMHO is that your stated belief above may, according to your portrayal of God’s Sovereign design, actually simply be a delusion that you cannot see. No more can we rely on reason to evaluate truth for just as the will of Hitler freely chooses wrongly, so too, your mind freely chooses and does so wrongly (potentially) because God in his sovereignty, has made it so. This is not a solid foundation to build upon.

Well I think it is clear that natural man does not have the indwelling of the Spirit. However, this does not mean the Spirit can’t work on natural man of course. As for the Spirit of God being everywhere, I can’t say for sure, but even if He is I know He doesn’t act the same in all places or all people at all times.

The Spirit is not limited by space and time. It is limited only by our choice to limit the Spirit within us.

Do you not believe that someone who is not a believer, can do a “good work”?

Of course! This, again, is another reason why your claim of James 2 being about demonstrating to others misses the mark.

I hear you’ll saying you are not the source, however, you all are saying the “good work” needed you in the sense of “power from you” in order for it to be done. Your faith + works = God + you.

We are free to reject both faith and works, so the same criteria that you apply to works also applies to fiath. Faith alone still requires that we do something, namely believe.

My understanding is all the power to do a “good work” comes from God. Not because of my flesh, but despite it. My faith + works = God - me(power).

You are correct, but the fact that remains is that you are not a robot; you can still choose to waste the “power” that God has provided by not doing the good work he prepared in advance (just as Eph 2:10 says, “should walk”, not “will walk”). After all, if you see someone in need ("least of brethren"cf Matt 25) and you choose to do nothing, you have chosen not to walk in the “good works prepared” by God, and God did not force you into this choice nor was it his Will. God allows it, is still ultimately sovereign, but you have chosen evil over good and God has bound himself to reward them differently (“God will reward each according to His works” cf Rom). And before you get too excited here, realize that it is all grace, we have not earned anything of ourselves. It is only by grace (ie a gift) that God has bound himself to reward our cooperation with Him at all - justice does not require it, but His love enables it. And that, ultimately, is why…“no man can boast”.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Seems this is your trouble. Too busy having fun and not busy enough reading for understanding.

You say that as if I have made a choice and am responsible for my actions, and that God has not sovereignly willed that I be busy having fun and not reading enough. That certainly doesnt square with your alleged explanation of free will.

Just because it doesn’t clarify any issues for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t clarify any issues.

Nor does it exclude that possibility! You need to brush up on your logic…

Wow! This is the best confession I’ve ever heard from a Catholic stating they trust the teachings of man over God. I am in awe.

Why is it you do this? I never said I take the teachings of man over God. What has happened, instead, is that you have made another in a very long list of logical errors. You have ASSUMED that YOUR understanding of the teachings of the Church (which is that they are not the teachings of God) is also my understanding. You are wrong regarding my understanding of those teachings! Furthermore, you then use this error that you have created to not only reveal your ignorance in this respect, but to use it in an inflammatory way. Why?
The fact of the matter is that I believe the teachings of the Church are God’s teachings expressed through His Church and through the Scripture that He revealed to the world through the same Church. So I havent placed anything over God’s teaching.
And your belief exactly? **ISTM You believe in your own ability - over everyone else’s - to interpret Sacred Scripture as the means God has chosen to reveal his Truth. ** Of course you would never admit to that, and perhaps you don’t even realize it, but when pressed to reveal who or what revealed the truth to you regarding any number of ambiguous verses from Scripture you would have no one but yourself to point to. No doubt you’d try to dodge the facts of the matter by giving full credit to the Holy Spirit for your interpretations, but you won’t give that same benefit of the doubt to anyone who claims the same source and yet disagrees with you. That is hypocritical IMHO.

How many early churches in the Bible can you find that were perfect?
How many can you find that were imperfect?

Perfect in what sense?

Now tell me why you believe early church practices should be followed.

Because the authority to lead the Church was given to the Apostles by Christ: I am responsible to God to follow their leading; they are responsible to God in how they lead. But the bigger question is, “Why do you think you, or your system, is any better?”

Are their teachings “speaking more directly” and aligning with scripture, or could they be “speaking more directly” and not aligned with scripture.

I trust that God has preserved his Teaching through the “pillar and foundation of Truth” and as such their teaching is the teaching of Scripture. And don’t forget you still haven’t answered exactly how you know a single text of Scripture - you have only dodged the issue.

You have just admitted that you use early church traditions to interpret scripture. As if early churches were infallible (rolling eyes). This is the whole problem.

You mean traditions like, say, that Jesus actually existed? That he was born of the Virgin Mary? That he rose from the dead? etc etc etc Tell me what you know apart from the Church and I’ll show you more of your fallacious assumptions.
Are you ready for a jolt? Scripture is not only the word of God, it is also Church Tradition. Deal with it!

Blessings!

 

[steve_b]

Steve you are trying to start something lol.

Guilty!!!
I:

Steve you are trying to start something lol.

1. • All given grace, yes.
   • All loved by God, no.
   • All given opportunity by grace to be Saved, no.
   • And yes I do believe in “once Saved always Saved”.

1. 
   Ya see, that wasn’t so hard, was it? I know you knew, where I was going with my questions. I didn’t want to presume, but I did assume you are a OSAS Calvinist because I was seeing TULIP sprinkled throughout your posts…right?
   
   Now that we have that out of the way, hope you don’t mind, I converted your points into numbers for ease of response
   • We agree on #1
   • We disagree on #2. I refer to Rom 8:39
   • We disagree on #3. I refer to 1 Tim 2:4
   • We disagree on #4. I refer to my previous post regarding mortal sins. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49 is THAT why you didn’t want to respond to that post?
   I:
   

   A little of both. I believe Hitler and Judas did exactly as they wanted to do. They acted on the desires of their will. At the same time however, I believe nothing happens unless it is in the Sovereign will of God and therefore all that happens, happens just as God intends it to happen including the actions of Hitler and Judas.

   God knowing in advance what a person will do, does not translate into God intends for one to do evil and they have no choice in the matter. Think about it. If God caused Hitler to do what he did, Hitler then, is not guilty of anything he did. Because he didn’t do it, it was God. As I understand it, that’s what we would call double predestination
   I:
   

   Well I think it is clear that natural man does not have the indwelling of the Spirit. However, this does not mean the Spirit can’t work on natural man of course. As for the Spirit of God being everywhere, I can’t say for sure, but even if He is I know He doesn’t act the same in all places or all people at all times.
   
   1 Cor. 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
   
   Grace is not an on off switch or one size fits all. There is the grace that allows everyone who is living to live, there is grace that moves someone to do a “good work”, there is grace that convicts a natural man of his sinful nature and brings him/her to Christ, etc.

   maybe we can cut to the chase. Jimmy Akin was a Calvinist who became Catholic and is an apologist for Catholic Answers. He wrote a piece *“tiptoe through TULIP”. *Take a look at the following link. You’ll see where we can agree and can’t agree regarding Calvin’s theology.
   
   Total depravity
   Unconditional election
   Limited atonement
   Irresistable grace
   Perseverance of the saints
   
   cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm
   I:
   

   Do you not believe that someone who is not a believer, can do a “good work”?

   We can’t please God on our own. It 1st requires grace.
   I:
   

   I hear you’ll saying you are not the source, however, you all are saying the “good work” needed you in the sense of “power from you” in order for it to be done. Your faith + works = God + you.

   We aren’t robots. God would NOT have given us free will if it wasn’t free. He would NOT give us choices if we can’t truly make choices. He would NOT have created us with a rational soul if we weren’t capable of reason. He would NOT say we (as in ALL humanity) are made in the image and likeness of God if we really aren’t.
   I:
   

   My understanding is all the power to do a “good work” comes from God.

   True
   I:
   

   Not because of my flesh, but despite it.

   True in a certain sense. If my flesh wasn’t necessary in the equation, i.e. my saying yes to God, what then is the purpose of the incarnation, and what is the necessity of ME doing anything good? Since God can do it all, why is there even a necessity for me to exist?
   I:
   

   My faith + works = God - me(power).

   Why do you discount humanity and the part we MUST play? God incarnated, lived, suffered, died, and ascended back to heaven for us and our sins. WHY? God did all this for worthless creatures that He really doesn’t want? That makes nonsense out of the incarnation, grace, faith, good works, authority, the Church, the sacraments, heaven, hell, scripture, etc etc etc.
   I:
   

   You’ll believe a sort of power comes from you that God needs in order to work a good work through you.

   I call it free will. Can God overpower me? Of course. He can do what He wants. But why does He give me free will then? Why give me grace?
   I:
   

   I believe God commands a good work to be done and **MAKES **one willing to do it, He doesn’t ask one to do it. My God does not need our help to do anything. He is indeed all powerful.

   ergo the** I** in TULIP…right? Irresistable grace ?
   
   This was answered in the link above
   I:
   

   It sounds like I would agree with this statement, but this is contrary to what you’ll have been saying. I believe Paul is saying, it is God and God alone doing the work in him. But you’ll are saying, it is God and you doing the work.
   
   ex. your quote "Since All are given grace, some worked with grace others didn’t. "

   I defer to the link above

 

[SwissGuard25]

Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation! Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith alone justifies!

I don’t know why did Martin Luther change that verse?

You my friend need to some research. Martin Luther, to prove his blasphemous teachings, change that verse so people would actually believe him.
Here go to this link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible#Theology

If you went to the link you can see that Martin Luther changed it. Also read James 2:24 “for you see man is save through works and not by faith alone.”

So basically what we have hear is a verse changed by a man vs. a traditional verse written by the Holy Ghost.
Do you understand my friend?

Take care and
God Bless.

 

[Philthy]

No one can discern ultimate Salvation besides God. However, we can sometimes discern whether or not a professing brother or sister(including ourselves) exhibits fruit of the Spirit. If we do not see these fruits, then we should be concerned for the state of the persons soul.

I believe when the Lord God Saves He Saves. He does not attempt to Save, He does not try to Save, He does not simply want to Save without full ability, He cannot be overpowered by man, He indeed has all power and Saves all He wills to Save! My God never fails and my God needs no help from man to accomplish His will.

Once Saved always Saved!

So to sum it up, even though “no one can discern ultimate Salvation besides God”,and that “when the Lord God Saves He Saves” and that God “needs no help from man to accomplish His will”, you still believe that at times we “should be concerned for the state of the persons soul.” The illogical part of this series of thoughts - and they are all yours - is two fold:
Firstly, why would you be concerned about another? After all, if it is God’s Sovereign will that someone not be among those he offers grace to (you said God does not offer grace to all) - why would you not trust His wisdom in determining this.

Secondly, why be concerned when there is nothing you or that person can do about it? You did claim that God doesnt need your help or anyone else’s to accomplish salvation - why not simply rest in the confidence that God’s will be done?

Your concerns and actions speak differently than your espoused theology of, to paraphrase, God does it all.

Blessings!

 

[steve_b]

Let me ask the question another way. Is it the Catholic position that Romans 4:2 refers only to “works of the law” when Paul writes “works”?

Y or N

Let me ask you, do you see anything in Rom 4 that links “works” with “good works”? I DO see, a major emphasis put on faith v law and actions regarding the “law”, and I don’t see good works being discussed here…

For example

Look at the emphasis on circumcision. Is circumcision a

1. • good work
   • or work of law?
   It’s #2
   
   As I read Rom 4, there is a major discussion between
   • faith v “work of law”,
   • not faith + “good works”.
   Here is Rom 4:
   
   1 What then shall we say about * Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3* For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4* Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5* And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6 So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7* “Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.” 9 Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11* He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13* The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14* If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs,** faith** is null and the promise is void. 15* For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants-- not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all, 17* as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations” --in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18* In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” 19* He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22* That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” 23* But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25* who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.*

 

[I_v_I]

Ya see, that wasn’t so hard, was it? I know you knew, where I was going with my questions. I didn’t want to presume, but I did assume you are a OSAS Calvinist because I was seeing TULIP sprinkled throughout your posts…right?

Thank you very much for not assuming! I do agree with Calvinists on these points. Not sure about everywhere else though…

Now that we have that out of the way, hope you don’t mind, I converted your points into numbers for ease of response

• We agree on #1
• We disagree on #2. I refer to Rom 8:39
• We disagree on #3. I refer to 1 Tim 2:4
• We disagree on #4. I refer to my previous post regarding mortal sins.

No prob, if we want to go at these let’s see if we can possibly (may not be totally possible due to the overlapping nature) do them one by one so that things will be manageable.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8521589&postcount=49 is THAT why you didn’t want to respond to that post?

Yes and no. I knew this topic could possibly overshadow what was the current topic and also I saw just how far apart our doctrines are. I wouldn’t have known where to start without us going in more slowly.

God knowing in advance what a person will do, does not translate into God intends for one to do evil and they have no choice in the matter.

Logically, I can’t see how this could be the case.

A few questions:

1. Do you believe God is always omniscient?
2. Do you believe God can ever fail to do exactly as He wants?
3. Do you believe God created everyone the way He wanted to (i.e. each persons’ human characteristics [looks, voice, mind, vision, etc.])?

Think about it. If God caused Hitler to do what he did, Hitler then, is not guilty of anything he did. Because he didn’t do it, it was God. As I understand it, that’s what we would call double predestination

How surprised would you be if scripture didn’t agree with this statement? How would that change your understanding?

maybe we can cut to the chase. Jimmy Akin was a Calvinist who became Catholic and is an apologist for Catholic Answers. He wrote a piece *“tiptoe through TULIP”. *Take a look at the following link. You’ll see where we can agree and can’t agree regarding Calvin’s theology.

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistable grace
Perseverance of the saints

cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

I will take a look at it, but I prefer to stick with scripture, your personal understanding and my personal understanding because he may make statements about believers of Predestination that I don’t believe are accurate as well as teachings of Catholicism for you. Since we both agree that scripture is true, this “pulls out some of the slack” between our doctrines. And then we don’t have to battle with “once Calvinists, now Catholics” and “once Catholics, now Calvinists”) lol. The Word of God is always my focus.

We aren’t robots. God would NOT have given us free will if it wasn’t free. He would NOT give us choices if we can’t truly make choices. He would NOT have created us with a rational soul if we weren’t capable of reason. He would NOT say we (as in ALL humanity) are made in the image and likeness of God if we really aren’t.

I guess that all depends on your definition of free will.

My definition of free will: The ability to do exactly as we please/want/will to do.

True in a certain sense. If my flesh wasn’t necessary in the equation, i.e. my saying yes to God, what then is the purpose of the incarnation,…

When I say “flesh” I mean “power of the flesh” or “power of yourself” or “natural power”. When anyone believes on the Lord, it is not of their own power, it is by supernatural power. From what I’ve read, I think we agree on this point? In the same way, the power to do good works also comes from the Spirit of God and not from the power of our flesh. Do we agree here?

The purpose of the incarnation was so that Christ could bare believers’ sins on the cross in their place.

…and what is the necessity of ME doing anything good?

It is necessary for believers to do good because they are being formed into the image of Christ and they are to be the salt and light of the world.

Since God can do it all, why is there even a necessity for me to exist?

You are a part of God’s Sovereign plan. He does as He pleases, and it pleases Him to make you a part of it.

Why do you discount humanity and the part we MUST play? God incarnated, lived, suffered, died, and ascended back to heaven for us and our sins. WHY?

Please don’t think I discount humanity, we are indeed made in His image and likeness. I wouldn’t dare discount any of God’s creations. At the same time, I understand man’s place when compared to God.

God died for the sins of believers because He loves them in a way that you or I probably cannot comprehend. And He has loved them since before the foundations of the earth.

I call it free will. Can God overpower me? Of course. He can do what He wants. But why does He give me free will then? Why give me grace?

Tell me your definition of grace please, so that I know exactly what you are saying.

 

[I_v_I]

Let me ask you, do you see anything in Rom 4 that links “works” with “good works”? I DO see, a major emphasis put on faith v law and actions regarding the “law”, and I don’t see good works being discussed here…

I believe there is an unwritten understanding that “works” in Rom 4 is “good works” because it speaks of Abraham as being justified by them (works). I think we all agree that if we were to be justified by works they would be “good works”. Also James refers to this same “work” in James 2:21 as proving Abraham to be Righteous. Paul also talks of them (works) in a sense that after doing them, one deserves payment. Payment isn’t normally obligated for “bad works”.

For example

Look at the emphasis on circumcision. Is circumcision a

1. • good work
   • or work of law?

1. 
   It’s #2
   

   As I read Rom 4, there is a major discussion between
   

   • faith v “work of law”,
   • not faith + “good works”.

   Here is a brief look at what I understand Rom 4 to be saying:
   forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8523823&postcount=52
   
   Hey Steve, quick question… do you find anything strange about those verses where Jesus heals the sick and he always refers to the faith and belief of the person?
   
   Scale 1 to 5: 1 Not strange at all - 5 Very strange
   
   If you’d rather not answer no prob, just curious.

 

[I_v_I]

.

lol. ok Philthy I think we speak two totally different languages ahahaha.

You act as if you have a perfect grasp on the scriptures, but when I post relatively uncomplicated verses you tell me you need them broken down. I break scripture down and you say I’m wrong lol. How do you know? Which is it? Do you understand it or not?

You said:

“When we are successful in doing good, it is firstly, and contingent upon God’s having empowered us with His Spirit, but it is secondarily dependent upon us** choosing to cooperate with God**.”

I said: “So the God you believe in needs your cooperation too?”

You said:

I never said that.

What???

Im sure you believe this to be relevant to some point, but it’s relevance escapes me. God requires nothing from anyone or anything…so what?

Relevance escaping you seems to be an increasing theme… and I can’t figure out why.

When I wander like a lost sheep, my God constantly calls me in an attempt to return me to his fold…does yours? That seems like attempting to me…but, again you might wish to explain it’s relevance to the topic.

No. My God does not “attempt to return me to his fold”. My God returns me to His fold - the end. There is no question of whether I will cooperate. He wills me to do as He wants me to do and what He wants me to do I also want to do.

I wrote: "My God never asks me to do anything. "

You wrote:

Not even to repent and believe?

No, not even to repent and believe. He does not ask this, He COMMANDS it!

I wrote: “When a true believer sins, they sin of their own flesh, apart from the Spirit of God. At that time the believer is “walking by the flesh”.Anytime they do good they are “walking by the Spirit” apart from the flesh.”

You wrote:

Oh - that clears it up: the flesh always does the walking, but when it’s good walking we call it an “act of the Spirit” and when it is bad walking we call it an “act of the flesh”. So back to the good works that God plans for us, which don’t include these works of the flesh. What exactly is it called when we fail to walk in the good works that God prepared in advance for us? Is there any eternal consequence to doing this?

I give you the scriptures, you say you don’t understand. So I give you the breakdown, you say you don’t understand. Not because of any fault in yourself, but a fault of mine in both instances. And all the while you have this attitude of supreme knowledge. I would strongly suggest you dive deep into the Bible and humble yourself so that you will one day be able to learn what it teaches.

FWIW. Believers can’t “fail to walk in the good works that God prepared in advance for us”. The work is done by God and we’ve already agreed that God cannot fail. And yes there is a wonderful eternal consequence of this - an eternity with God.

Not at all, God is omnipotent according to Catholic theology. I understand that it is difficult for you to actually address my comments and that out of frustration you mischaracterize them. Why don’t you tell us why you believe I believe that God can be “overpowered by man”, and perhaps we can discuss it.

You believe God tries/attempts to bring all His sheep into the fold correct? Ok.

You believe many people will not come to Him because they don’t cooperate or they reject Him (i.e. His power/grace) with their “free will”, correct? Ok.

Soooo, you believe man can reject the power of God (i.e. overpower God because God is trying remember) with his/her free will.

I already know you will say “your logic is totally off” etc etc lol

 

[steve_b]

No prob, if we want to go at these let’s see if we can possibly (may not be totally possible due to the overlapping nature) do them one by one so that things will be manageable.

You go 1st.
I:

Logically, I can’t see how this could be the case.

A few questions:

1. Do you believe God is always omniscient?
2. Do you believe God can ever fail to do exactly as He wants?
3. Do you believe God created everyone the way He wanted to (i.e. each persons’ human characteristics [looks, voice, mind, vision, etc.])?

1. Yes
2. No
3. I believe God desires the best for everyone. But that doesn’t mean if he foreknows a person will go to hell, that He will absolutely prevent that person from being born.

I:

How surprised would you be if scripture didn’t agree with this statement? How would that change your understanding?

Which scripture?

Since you mention you might not be 100% Calvinist, maybe we can probe where we have similarities. Here’s a short article. Your thoughts?
catholic.com/magazine/articles/predestined-for-freedom
I:

I will take a look at it, but I prefer to stick with scripture, your personal understanding and my personal understanding because he may make statements about believers of Predestination that I don’t believe are accurate as well as teachings of Catholicism for you.

You’ll find, any article I give, is full of scripture references to support the position we’re speaking of…
I:

Since we both agree that scripture is true, this “pulls out some of the slack” between our doctrines. And then we don’t have to battle with “once Calvinists, now Catholics” and “once Catholics, now Calvinists”) lol. The Word of God is always my focus.

The references I quote will always have copious quotes from scripture.
I:

I guess that all depends on your definition of free will.

My definition of free will: The ability to do exactly as we please/want/will to do.

That’s pretty much it.

I think we can agree, a properly formed conscience impacts our will positively, such that we freely choose to act in certain ways and NOT in other ways, because of our developed conscience. The opposite would also be true.
I:

When I say “flesh” I mean “power of the flesh” or “power of yourself” or “natural power”. When anyone believes on the Lord, it is not of their own power, it is by supernatural power.

True, but it is also our choice made freely to accept or reject the grace given. For example, scripture says, a fool is one who says in his heart there is no God. Did that person “fool”

• not get grace
• or did he reject grace that was given freely, because God is inconvenient to their lifestyle

I:

From what I’ve read, I think we agree on this point? In the same way, the power to do good works also comes from the Spirit of God and not from the power of our flesh. Do we agree here?

Agreed.
I:

Tell me your definition of grace please, so that I know exactly what you are saying.

Catholics have a detailed definition and understanding of grace.
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Grace

but here’s a short answer
Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation, the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim