Good work = salvation is it true?

[Philthy]

I actually did tell you exactly what I do:
“delete all seeming contradictions the Bible contains.”
I even gave examples so you would know what I meant:
"If the Bible says God never fails and God always does as He pleases, then this must hold true throughout all of scripture. If you have made a conclusion that God fails or His will is not done at any point, then you know you have come to an errant conclusion and you must deduce another conclusion that makes both the text you are reviewing and in this case, God’s characteristics true. "
If there are two apposing doctrines (referring to scripture that is sufficiently supportable), the one without contradiction is correct because the Bible does not contradict itself.

This might be an approach for you to resolve an issue with yourself, but it hardly addresses the issue I raised where you and ANOTHER person have a different opinion of what Scripture and the Holy Spirit appear to be leading you to believe.
How does the situation where two people disagree on which “opposing doctrine” is “without contradiction” get resolved? I’m sorry but saying that “if there are two opposing doctrines, the one without contradiction is correct” doesnt resolve the issue because - as the multitude of Protestant denominational and non-denominational theologies clearly shows - there is no way to objectively determine which one is, in fact, the one without contradiction. This solution, much like your free will analysis, doesn’t solve anything - it simply begs the question.

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t mind making a statement Catholics also believe. I am not aligned with a dueling denomination, I am aligned with the Word of God. If it aligns I am all for it. If it doesn’t I’m totally against it.

I was speaking in terms of “cooperating with God’s will”, you spoke as if they had the ability to change God’s plan.

We do. It’s called the Dignity of Causality.

Let me ask you this: does your church have prayer chains? Do you ask others to pray for special intentions in your congregation?

I am not familiar with every single type of Bible-reading Christian denomination, but thus far I have never heard of any pastor who forbids this or, really, who doesn’t encourage it.

If so, what’s the purpose of praying for others in your church?

 

[PRmerger]

My point was it would have been God’s will even if they had chosen a different day. They had no (name removed by moderator)ut in the process besides them doing what they wanted to do. God’s plan was already set and it went off without a hitch.

If they had used birth control, no l v l would be here to be so adamantine about this very peculiar paradigm. :sad_yes:

What was their alternative?

They could have used birth control. They could have been mad at each other and decided to punish each other and go to bed mad. They could have had an abortion. They could have decided to take drugs. They could have decided to go on a spending spree. The imagination boggles as to all the possibilities that they could have done to thwart God’s plan for you to be here.

Since you seem to believe man can alter God’s plan,

Yep–as I said, it’s called the Dignity of Causality.

Pascal says that God ‘instituted prayer in order to allow His creatures the dignity of causality’. It would perhaps be truer to say that He invented both prayer and physical action for that purpose. He gave us small creatures the dignity of being able to contribute to the course of events in two different ways. He made the matter of the universe such that we can (in those limits) do things to it; that is why we can wash our own hands and feed or murder our fellow creatures. Similarly, He made His own plan or plot of history such that it admits a certain amount of free play and can be modified in response to our prayers. If it is foolish and impudent to ask for victory in a war (on the ground that God might be expected to know best), it would be equally foolish and impudent to put on a mackintosh - does not God know best whether you ought to be wet or dry? source

 

[PRmerger]

how do you know it wasn’t God’s plan to have me one day prior, but my parents got delayed because of a flat tire?

Umm…I don’t know. Not sure what you’re asking here.

How do you know I was a blessing in their eyes?

Perhaps you weren’t. I really couldn’t say if they thought of you as a blessing or not. I would hope they did, but if they didn’t then they were in defiance of the will of God that you be considered a blessing.

Would they have been cooperating with God’s will had they been using contraception?

I’m pretty sure you know that the answer to that would be NO.

What if they wanted to, but the only reason they weren’t able to was due to lack of money. Would they still have been cooperating?

If they had prayed before they were married for children, and asked for children at their wedding, and prayed together in their married lives then, yes, they would still have been cooperating with God’s will in enjoying the marital embrace and being open to life.

If they had wanted to use abort you but “the only reason” they weren’t able to was because they ran out of money, then in that they *weren’t *cooperating, but then they decided to go ahead with the pregnancy, and God’s grace brought them back into cooperation.

My mother could have been so distraught that she wasn’t going to be able to take care of me that she was going to attempt mother son suicide, but on her way to the cliff she needed gas and she bought a scratch off lotto ticket with her last dollar and won $10k so she decided to forgo the suicide because now she would have a much better chance. Was she cooperating with God’s will?

Did she steal the lotto ticket or pay for it? Did she do anything that was contrary to Divine Law? If not, then she was indeed cooperating with God’s Will. If she turned her mind and will towards Him, then when she decided not to drive off that cliff, well, then, she chose of her own free will to cooperate.

What exactly are the right things?

Things that are consonant with the moral law.

If there is no set plan there are no “right things” anything would be fine.

How so? Is it not the right thing to remain faithful to your spouse, even if there “is no set plan”?

Is it not the wrong thing to bully someone, even if there “is no set plan”?

So in those cases that they made sinful choices were they cooperating with God’s will

No, they were not.

and if not, was God’s will still done?

Yes, as we’ve already agreed: God’s will is sovereign.

[qutoe]Was God caught off guard by any of their sinful acts because they weren’t in His “plan”?

No, God cannot be caught “off guard” by any of their sinful acts. He has his antecedent will, which we can cooperate with, and then he uses our choices to fulfill his consequent will. But in the end, all is God’s will.

 

[I_v_I]

This is a fair point.

But I think I addressed that in post #128 when I stated: When they did the wrong things (if they did), then it was due to their sinful choices and their lack of cooperation with God’s will, and then God still creates good out of that.

Here’s the deal though. You can’t have it both ways. Either His will is not always done in the instances that people aren’t “cooperating” with His will. In which case God is not Sovereign. Or everyone is always “cooperating” with God in order for His will to be done, whether their actions/intentions are good or bad.

I am sad that you feel that you are not little less than an angel.

Sure I agree with that, but my point was not in comparing man to angels. It is comparing man to God. BIG difference!

Absolutely not. The main point of the Bible is to show us God’s plan of salvation for us.

I never said it was THE main point. I said it was ONE main point. And it most definitely is. In order for man to get to the realization that he/she needs Salvation they must understand how inadequate they are to deal with their situation.

And that we were so loved–and worthy of love–that he gave us his only begotten son.

Like I said. It seems the Catholic teachings have totally missed the mark on man’s state with God. Please show me scripture that states man of himself/herself is “worthy” of love and Salvation.

No, not needs. God needs nothing.

So does He need man to do good work of their own flesh in order to Save them or not?

Does God need man to cooperate with His “grace” in order to Save them as He wishes or not?

God’s will always is accomplished, l v l. You are quite Catholic when you say this. St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this centuries ago when he discussed God’s antecedent will and God’s consequent will.

Sweet! Just call me Saint I v I then.

Absolutely not. Christ’s sacrifice was the only sacrifice which atoned for the sins of the world.

We only see it the way the Bible sees it–we make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ.

(I trust that you don’t have a problem with St. Paul’s words in Colossians 1:24).

Indeed I do not have a problem with Col 1:24, but you do if you think this means Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient to cover all the sins you will ever commit. This is a good example of what I was talking about with Philthy. You’ll seem to be fine with contradictions. Unless you weed them out, your doctrines will be flawed.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Heb 10:0 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. **He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. **

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so** Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many**; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[Philthy]

Here’s the deal though. You can’t have it both ways. Either His will is not always done in the instances that people aren’t “cooperating” with His will. In which case God is not Sovereign. Or everyone is always “cooperating” with God in order for His will to be done, whether their actions/intentions are good or bad.

Here’s the deal: we don’t need to have it both ways. You have simply assumed that God giving us the freedom to make real choices with consequences is NOT part of his Sovereign will. The entire foundation of your argument - that our choices having real consequences and God’s sovereign will are mutually exclusive is simply wrong. You apparently cannot see that, but that does not change the facts. God’s will remains sovereign, and His Will is that our choices have eternal consequences. To claim otherwise is to be a clanging cymbal, simultaneously declaring that God is sovereign yet speaking and acting as if our thoughts and actions (including this exchange) are mere illusions of free will.
As I pointed out earlier (at which you scoffed) one of the biggest lessons of the Incarnation is that human acts have eternal consequences. The existence of a NT, and the contents of it confirm the basic importance of our choices.
Deuteronomy 30:16-19
"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God… then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you…
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore** choose** life, that you and your offspring may live… "

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

To claim otherwise is to be a clanging cymbal, simultaneously declaring that God is sovereign yet speaking and acting as if our thoughts and actions (including this exchange) are mere illusions of free will.

Indeed.

I think that this peculiar paradigm espoused by l v l is a result of a distorted adoration of God’s sovereignty. No one can fault l v l for a lack of reverence for the Almighty. It simply has become aberrant and anomalous in its attempt to elevate God’s sovereignty to the exclusion of all other things.

It occurred to me that this type of theology has much similarity with the Muslim view of God. To Muslims, to say that we are God’s children is an abomination–this viewpoint rises from their supreme reverence for The Creator and coupled with their profession of the supreme (but perverted) humility of the creature.

Thank God that the Catholic Church was able to preserve the Gospel as God intended and we are able to acknowledge the supremacy of the Creator while marrying it to the concept of free will of man!

 

[steve_b]

I disagree. 2 Peter 1 gives us the same idea James gives us. A faith without good works is not proven/confirmed, so it is a dead faith because there is no “eternal gain” from it, nor is there any temporal comfort since you can’t be sure you have been justified.

2 Peter 1: 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith …

[snip for space]

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Do you believe the “good attributes” in 5-7 are spirit led or flesh led?

It’s interesting what you and I choose to highlight.

since EVERYTHING good comes from God, I was looking at the conditional statements that are meant for US. They start with* IF. *Here’s how I would highlight those texts

2 Peter 1: 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness,*** knowledge***; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection,*** love***. 8 For ***if ***you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For** if** you do these things,*** you will never stumble***, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

everybody has a chance but not all will be obedient to this teaching. That’s why there is an IF.Thus, God doesn’t sandbag anybody. Everyone has choices and a chance at salvation. Salvation is offered to everyone.
I:

In verse 10 we see that Peter wasn’t warning us that those who had been Saved and don’t do these things would fall from Salvation, but that their Salvation would not be confirmed.

The point is, Peter doesn’t presume anybody is saved. Peter is absolutely warning everyone, …
I:

This is the same point James makes in James 2. Then Peter goes on to tell us what we can expect as true believers if we do these things, a rich welcome into Heaven. What I was speaking of in the “suicide” posts. Not everyone who is Saved will receive a "rich welcome", even though compared with the alternative it would seem so.

I:

Ex: Two glasses of juice sit in front of us, apple and orange. If we want apple we will never be made to just deal with having to drink the orange against our will. We will pick the apple because that is what we want. But at the same time, that is what the will of God had in store for you before you knew you even wanted the apple juice. So you made your own choice, however, your choice was preordained by God because His Sovereign Will is always done.

iow God knows what we will do, but doesn’t force us to do it. ergo, In the case of commiting deadly sin, this is why we are held culpable for our actions not God.
I:

So if we were to substitute the apple and orange juice for accepting and rejecting God’s gift of Salvation, the same would hold true. God will not make someone who wants to accept the gift reject it.

God doesn’t make ANYONE accept or reject Him. Grace is a gift. Faith is a gift. If one doesn’t do all the things Peter instructs, there is NO gurantee one won’t fall. That’s Peter’s point.
I:

Scripture tells us man cannot turn to God unless God wills it to be so and scripture also tells us that God’s will is always done.

Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in
the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Dead people can do nothing but stay dead without God resurrecting or giving a rebirth.

Job 42: 2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

iow, God moves towards us 1st, because of our fallen nature. Then He gives us grace so we can move towards Him.
I:

Sure they were capable of rejecting God, but only because it was in God’s Sovereign will that it happen. [snip ].

Knowing what will happen doesn’t mean He forced it to happen. There is His permitted will.

 

[Philthy]

Indeed I do not have a problem with Col 1:24, but you do if you think this means Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient to cover all the sins you will ever commit.

She didnt say that - it’s simply another example of your poor logical skills leading you to false conclusions.

This is a good example of what I was talking about with Philthy.

Say what?! You and I talked of nothing of the sort - certainly not about Col and not even about the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.

You’ll seem to be fine with contradictions. Unless you weed them out, your doctrines will be flawed.

You seem to be fine with constructing doctrine from invalid conclusions(ie God’s sovereignty and out free will are mutually exclusive), viewing Scripture through them, and then lecturing others. And when some clear refutations to your position are presented to you, you’re off on other topics - or off to other posters - repeating the same errors that have been pointed out to you. Fortunately there is a great paper trail on the thread so that anyone who wishes to see what has been happening here can see it. I was hoping for a better outcome…

BTW your silence (ie failure to respond to PR) on why you pray if our actions cannot effect change is deafening. If you think that those who are following this thread have overlooked that or forgotten about it simply because you have chosen not to address it, then your are sadly mistaken.

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

Originally posted by Me: You are quite Catholic when you say this

Sweet! Just call me Saint I v I then.

I get that you were being funny when you said this, l v l, but just to make things clear: being a Catholic is not akin to being called a Saint.

 

[PRmerger]

Sure I agree with that, but my point was not in comparing man to angels. It is comparing man to God. BIG difference!

We are by grace what He is by nature.

I think your distorted view of man, as I said earlier, is similar to that which Muslims have, as it compares to their view of man and Allah. We are like bugs who can be squashed, in the Muslim mind, compared to the sovereignty of Allah.

Your view is much closer to the Muslim view.

I never said it was THE main point. I said it was ONE main point.

Well, as the Bible does not state what its main points are–and most certainly does NOT state that your interpretation is a “main point”–then we are left up to our own personal interpretations as to what are main points and what are minor points, no?

And it most definitely is. In order for man to get to the realization that he/she needs Salvation they must understand how inadequate they are to deal with their situation.

Again, this is quite Catholic of you to say. We can do NOTHING to merit salvation. In fact, that is why we baptize little infants–they have done NOTHING in order to merit God’s grace.

Like I said. It seems the Catholic teachings have totally missed the mark on man’s state with God. Please show me scripture that states man of himself/herself is “worthy” of love and Salvation.

The fact that we are Jesus’ friends makes us worthy, don’t you think?

So does He need man to do good work of their own flesh in order to Save them or not?

He needs our cooperation, of course. Otherwise you’re going to have to say that Christ’s atoning death on the cross saved atheists, Hitler, Muslims, pagans–without their having to repent and become Christian.

Does God need man to cooperate with His “grace” in order to Save them as He wishes or not?

Absolutely we are not saved unless we cooperate with His grace.

Again, unless you want to say that every single soul that’s ever been created has been saved by His Atoning Death.

Is that your position?

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s the deal though. You can’t have it both ways.

This is an odd comment coming from a Christian. Is it not the same argument that a Muslim proposes when he says Jesus cannot be a man and God:

Muslim says: Christian, here’s the deal though. You can’t have it both ways. Either Jesus is a man. Or he is God. Which is it?

And, of course, the Christian answers with the proverbial both/and. Yes, He is 100% God and yes, He is 100% man.

But the Muslim, stuck in his fundamentalist thinking, cannot go beyond the “here’s the deal though” thinking and remains fixed in his eternal stultification. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

Sure I agree with that, but my point was not in comparing man to angels. It is comparing man to God. BIG difference!

This brings to mind a story I heard about a former Calvinist minister, Scott Hahn, who converted to Catholicism a while ago.

Hahn and a Muslim scholar were scheduled to debate each other. Prior to the date, Prof. Hahn and the Muslim met to discuss logistics, setting, etc. Hahn kept making references to God as our Father.

The Muslim became increasingly agitated with each reference to God the Father The Muslim said ** “God is not Father, Allah is Master.” ** He argued “God does not love like a Father.” The Muslim then gave this analogy: “I have a dog. I love my dog. But I am moving into an apartment that does not allow dogs. While I love my dog, he is my dog, so I will kill my dog because I can’t take him to my new apartment.” Finally, the Muslim left the meeting in disgust at the blasphemy being proposed of God being anything but a Master–a Sovereign Master who can do as He pleases.

This paradigm of man being evil and depraved is, perhaps, better than what the Muslim proposes, but barely. St. Paul tells us that we are “no longer slaves but sons.”

God took on human nature so that we might come to share in the divinity of Christ.

We are by grace what He is by nature.

 

[Philthy]

It appears that our friend IvI - true to his/her name - prefers the internal debate of I vs I rather than the rigors of confronting “contradictory” opinions from others. Certainly the rubric which he put forward as the means for resolving differences of opinions of interpretations of Scripture is completely unworkable because it fails to account for the fact that the reason people disagree is because they have contradictory opinions of which is the contradictory position.
For those trying to make sense of it all, here’s a brief summary:

Catholics maintain that good works play a role in salvation
IvI maintains that they do not play a role in salvation. He based this opinion on the fact that God is omnipotent and sovereign and that He doesn’t “need” man’s cooperation.
It was gently pointed out - well, I’ll admit maybe not so gently - that while God doesn’t “need” anything from us, He has nonetheless in his omnipotence and sovereignty willed that man’s actions have real, salvific consequences. The entire NT speaks of our actions and their consequences. PRmerger eloquently and gently put forward the challenge that if our actions don’t have consequences - if they don’t affect God or salvific issues - then why do we pray for ourselves, others, change, etc? A deafening silence was heard as this very practical issue was never addressed by I v I, who has apparently chosen to retreat back into the monologue of I v I rather than deal with the contradictions of his theology in the manner he proposed.

Blessings!

 

[paul_c]

Indeed.

I think that this peculiar paradigm espoused by l v l is a result of a distorted adoration of God’s sovereignty. No one can fault l v l for a lack of reverence for the Almighty. It simply has become aberrant and anomalous in its attempt to elevate God’s sovereignty to the exclusion of all other things.

It occurred to me that this type of theology has much similarity with the Muslim view of God. To Muslims, to say that we are God’s children is an abomination–this viewpoint rises from their supreme reverence for The Creator and coupled with their profession of the supreme (but perverted) humility of the creature.

Thank God that the Catholic Church was able to preserve the Gospel as God intended and we are able to acknowledge the supremacy of the Creator while marrying it to the concept of free will of man!

PR, do you ever think about Satan’s role in all this?

Think about the cunning in this distortion. Satan has convinced many people that God is omnipotent (the truth) so there is nothing we can do for Him (another truth). He then extends this to say that since there is nothing we can do for Him, He doesn’t want us to do anything for ourselves (this is the lie). Because after all, God wants us to do good works not because He needs them but because it elevates US and makes us more Godlike and ultimately, if we align ourselves to God, we will be saved. Most of the New Testament describes how to live the Christian life, from the Sermon on the Mount to the admonitions in Paul’s epistles. Doesn’t this make it obvious that we are called to do God’s will?

 

[PRmerger]

PR, do you ever think about Satan’s role in all this?

Think about the cunning in this distortion. Satan has convinced many people that God is omnipotent (the truth) so there is nothing we can do for Him (another truth). He then extends this to say that since there is nothing we can do for Him, He doesn’t want us to do anything for ourselves (this is the lie). Because after all, God wants us to do good works not because He needs them but because it elevates US and makes us more Godlike and ultimately, if we align ourselves to God, we will be saved. Most of the New Testament describes how to live the Christian life, from the Sermon on the Mount to the admonitions in Paul’s epistles. Doesn’t this make it obvious that we are called to do God’s will?

Oh, you are absolutely right. Each lie is only a truth that has been cleverly twisted by the Author of Lies.

 

[paul_c]

Oh, you are absolutely right. Each lie is only a truth that has been cleverly twisted by the Author of Lies.

And isn’t it amazing that that one little twist can make people think that they are treating God with ultimate respect while doing exactly the opposite of what he calls them to do.

There are SO many poor souls that think they are paying God the ultimate respect by simply believing that he will save them while neglecting to do the good works he has called them to do. And they think that those who are trying their best to do God’s will, are vainly trying to work their way to heaven. You can just see the conversation at their judgement because our Lord gave it to them in advance in Matthew 7:21-23:

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.n 22Many will say to me on that day,o ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’p 23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.

 

[steve_b]

You’ll definitely have contradictions with God’s power, there is no doubt. You tell me it is God’s will that everyone is Saved, you say He gives everyone “grace” so that they have the possibility to turn to Him, but they don’t. You tell me He tries as hard as He can, and still people wont believe. This is surely a contradiction if you believe God is All Powerful.

Would you agree the paschal mystery, (life death and resurrection of Jesus) is a phenominal act of God for our behalf? Did He limit that to only a few so that only a few will be able to partake?

Somehow permitted will of God is getting translated into weakness or a contradiction within God. Having made us in the image and likeness of God, and He also offers us participation in His Divine Nature, [2 Pet 1:4] we certainly can’t be surprised He expects much from us.
I:

I have given several verses from the Bible that help us understand His Sovereign will and only one conclusion can be made from them. His Sovereign will is always accomplished, nothing can stop it or go against it. Everything works the exact way He Sovereignly wills it to work. However, you’ll tell me that everyone who doesn’t believe in Christ thwarts His will. You indeed have a contradiction with your idea of free will vs. God’s power.

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

that does NOT mean God overrides a person’s freewill and predestines them to hell without their freewill fully operational.

God’s pemitted will ≠ contradiction of his will

 

[Philthy]

And isn’t it amazing that that one little twist can make people think that they are treating God with ultimate respect while doing exactly the opposite of what he calls them to do.
There are SO many poor souls that think they are paying God the ultimate respect by simply believing that he will save them while neglecting to do the good works he has called them to do.

Unfortunately I don’t believe this is quite the situation: they are not entirely ignorant of the facts. I don’t think God allows anyone to ignorantly follow the path to destruction if they are genuinely attempting to pursue truth. God calls every one of us by grace in that mysterious place called our conscience (ie our “heart” in Scripture). It is there that grace and free will interact and we choose to either follow or wander.
We all have motives for what we do and deep down inside we all know it, and if we don’t God will reveal it to us if we choose to listen. But we have to first be willing to let go of those things we cling to which have replaced God in our hearts…

Blessings!

p.s. If some of this sounds familiar, it is because I got most of it from Guanophore

 

[paul_c]

Unfortunately I don’t believe this is quite the situation: they are not entirely ignorant of the facts. I don’t think God allows anyone to ignorantly follow the path to destruction if they are genuinely attempting to pursue truth. God calls every one of us by grace in that mysterious place called our conscience (ie our “heart” in Scripture). It is there that grace and free will interact and we choose to either follow or wander.
We all have motives for what we do and deep down inside we all know it, and if we don’t God will reveal it to us if we choose to listen. But we have to first be willing to let go of those things we cling to which have replaced God in our hearts…

Blessings!

p.s. If some of this sounds familiar, it is because I got most of it from Guanophore

interesting