Good work = salvation is it true?

[JesuisSean]

On the grand scale of things, there is no escape for truth. By the action of God, truth is maintained.

Thus eventually, on the grand scale of things, the truth comes full circle. Hence, " He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.". Thus in turn, the good work that you do, also eventually comes full circle.

Satan, on the other hand, wants to convince a many a people that what you will receive in the long run, will be free of charge. This can also lead to insanity. For instance, Satan convinces a many a people that all that they have to do to help those in need, is pray for them and thus in turn maintain ones selfishness, and thus ones money, rather than give what one can to save those whom are in desperate need.

Luke 12:33 >> “Sell your possessions and give to those in need. This will store up treasure for you in heaven! And the purses of heaven never get old or develop holes. Your treasure will be safe; no thief can steal it and no moth can destroy it.”

Unfortuanely, Satan has convinced many people to do nothing but pray for others, and thus for decades now, approximately 10 million children of age 5 and under, die ***per year ***of starvation and illness. This just keeps going on and on, year after year, and thus in turn makes the GERMAN HOLOCAUST seem like nothing much at all, since it was ONLY a one time event and only involved 6 million people, and on top of that, they were not ALL children.

And so, as I have said, many people believe that praying, rather than taking action, is all that is required. However, if such a person was in hospital and was facing death due to cancer, and the doctor said that an operation would save this persons life, this person would be happy. But when the doctor then said that he truly respects your individual belief that praying, rather than taking action, is the way to go, and thus in turn had chosen NOT to perform the operation, but chose to pray for you instead, suddenly, for some inexplicable reason, the person is in a state of panic.

Such a person is not sane. Such a person has only a unidirectional view of reality. It’s OK to do nothing but pray for “OTHERS”, but this rule does not apply in the opposite direction concerning the “SELF”, is what such a person thinks.

Think of reality as a closed loop. Treat others poorly, and in the long run so too will you be treated poorly.

 

[I_v_I]

You are right that if your interpretation of scripture contradicts another scripture passage, then one or both of your interpretations are wrong. Clearly, if you find yourself ignoring parts of scripture because they contradict what you believe, then you are simply fooling yourself.

I am very glad you understand what I have been trying to explain and that you agree.

I think this may be a definitional problem. Here’s what the Catholic Church teaches:

God reaches out to every man.

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone? If so, why do you believe this is not accomplished? Is it fair to say that if God **tries **to do something, but is unable to accomplish it, even if it is the fault of man or any other power, that He has failed to accomplish what He wanted to do? Is it fair to say that man or another power was able to thwart His Will to Save everyone? If it is not fair to make these conclusions then please explain why it is not.

How do you reconcile these verses? If these are true, then it would seem God accomplishes all that He chooses to accomplish without question.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.

Prov 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Prov 16: 33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Lam 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
39 Why should the living complain
when punished for their sins?

Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”

Those that answer his call and desire to do his will recieve grace sufficient to be saved in the sacrament of baptism. Grace is freely given to all those that request it in this way as is the forgiveness of all prior sin and membership in his one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

How does anyone answer His call or request grace if they are dead in sin?

Why do you believe the Grace given only atones for prior sins when scripture tells us:

Heb 7:22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

If you die in the state of Grace, you will enter heaven.

Just a hypothetical. If there was a man who believed in Christ as his Savior and he lived his life in a “state of Grace”, never once committing a “mortal sin” until immediately before His death. He commits this sin and immediately has a heart attack so there is no time to make it to a “priest”. What do you believe happens to this man? I’m really just wondering.

So while you enter the state of grace without any works, you must do works of love to stay in the state of grace and ultimately to enter into heaven.

How does one enter the “state of Grace”?

I do believe a Believer must do “good works” (by the Spirit, through the flesh) in order to stay in right standing with God and if this is not done then the person in chastened. However, I do not believe the Bible tells us that this has a bearing on Believers entering Heaven or not.

Your difficulty comes from misunderstanding what the Church teaches. You see, its not about earning your way to heaven or impacting God’s sovereignty. Its about aligning ourselves to God’s will for us. God wants us to come to him through love, which by definition can never be forced. In the end, its not our actions that save us, its our willingness to do what God wants from us. Getting to heaven is a choice we make to love. And by the way, God made everything and if its used as He intended, its very Good. See Genesis 1. The problem comes in when man wants to use God’s gifts in way that contradicts God’s intentions. That’s the definition of sin.

How do you “align yourself to God’s will”? Is it of your flesh or is it of the Spirit of God. IOW do any of the “good works” **come from your flesh **or do they all come from the Spirit of God working through your flesh?

 

[I_v_I]

Again, its not that you can give anything to God, who is the source of everything. But good works are love in action and we must love to stay in the state of grace and go to heaven… Search the scriptures. You will see that this is true. I particularly like 1Corinthians 13, where St. Paul explains that love is the most important virtue. And both the great commandment: (Matthew : 34-40) and the New Commandment (John 13: 31-35) highlight this point.

Again, does true love come from the flesh or does it come from the Spirit of God working through you in spite of your flesh?

I agree 1 Cor 13 speaks of love being the greatest gift. But it is clear from 1 Cor 12 that this is a Spiritual gift and not a gift of the flesh.

1 Cor 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

It is God at work by His Spirit through your flesh despite its evil nature. It is not your flesh choosing to work in conjunction with His Spirit. Your flesh is absolutely contrary to the Spirit at all times.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.

It is by faith that we get into the state of grace and we must come to Jesus willingly.

I can think of no scripture that tells us our faith gets us into a state of grace. I find that scripture tells us grace gives True Believers the faith needed for Salvation.

We definitely must come to Jesus willingly, however; the will to do so again comes from God giving us that will. Not from your flesh deciding on it’s own. Remember Believers were dead in their sins, they could not turn to Jesus unless God made them to do so.

But don’t be confused, you can lose your salvation and ultimately be condemned to hell if you fall from grace through sin. Romans 11: 11-24 shows this as does Matthew 7: 21-23.

Rom 11:11-24 speaks of Israel as a Nation, not as individual people. If you are using this to prove that sins can cause a fall from grace then you are implying sins of a person(s) can cause the fall of others.

Matthew 7: 21-23 tells us about false professors, those who claimed to be a part of the Church and yet never had true faith (same as the goats in Matt 25). This is not about people who have lost Salvation. Look at verse 23, Jesus says “I never knew you…”, not “I knew you and you failed to do good works” or anything like that. He never knew them, they were never His sheep. Is that all I use to make this conclusion? No. This is an example of one of the texts I speak of when I talk about weeding out “seeming contradictions in Biblical text”.

We must look further to gain a more clear insight. How do you reconcile the belief that one can lose Salvation with these texts?

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, **nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. **

 

[I_v_I]

Again, Faith saves you, but Love gets you to heaven.

What scripture do you use to support this? What does being “Saved” mean to you?

You see,there two truths here. God’s plan WILL be carried out and man really DOES have free will.

I believe this to be true. But how can you say this and also say God plan is to have all men Saved and yet they all are not? Either it was in His plan that not all are Saved (as I believe the Bible tells us) or it is His plan that all are Saved and His plan is not carried out.

These two truths can be carried out simultaneously without conflict because of the greatness of God. You see, he is truly omniscient and he can develop his plan taking into account his knowledge of what you will do with your free will. Let me give you a scriptural example. In genesis, God did not desire for Adam and Eve to disobey him and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. But he knew that they would and his entire plan for the world took that into account.

What exactly do you believe God’s plan is?

I believe God is omniscient and I believe He knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him even before He created them.The question is, did God create Adam and Eve exactly as He chose or was there only one way in which He could create them? Do you believe it was impossible for God to create them in a way that they, with their free will, would choose not to eat of the tree? If it was in His Sovereign Will that they not eat of the tree, He would have created them in such a way that they would not do so. While they disobeyed God’s revealed Will, they were on one accord just as everything is with His Sovereign Will.

In the same way, he gave Mary the choice to be the Mother of our Lord, knowing that she would say" I am the handmaid of the Lord, may it be done to me according to thy word."

Would it have been impossible for God to have created and molded Mary in such a way that of her own “free will” she would have rejected the Lord?

So you see, God’s plan will be completed as He desires AND man’s actions have True consequences, without one conflicting with the other

I don’t necessarily believe you have explained how you believe God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” do not contradict. It is possible that I just misunderstood though.

Prayer is communication with God. It can be for praise, thankgiving, intercession, forgiveness or for our own desires. God knows what we want and need before we ask, but the asking is important because it demonstrates our faith. Remember, all those that were healed by Jesus were in effect praying to Him for their own needs. Our prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is Yes, some times the answer is no because what we ask for is not in the end good for us or others, and sometimes teh answer is “Later”. In mass, we actually pray for all 5 ways I discussed above.

Thank you for telling me why you pray and that you believe all prayers are answered (by answered in my question I was referring to “answered in the affirmative”, but you answered anyway). What about the additional questions?

Have you ever prayed that the Lord’s Will be changed to align with yours? If not, why not?

Do you pray in the Spirit or in the flesh?

congratulations

Thanks a lot! The kid is a blast.

 

[PRmerger]

Just a hypothetical. If there was a man who believed in Christ as his Savior and he lived his life in a “state of Grace”, never once committing a “mortal sin” until immediately before His death. He commits this sin and immediately has a heart attack so there is no time to make it to a “priest”. What do you believe happens to this man? I’m really just wondering.

Just so we’re on the same page: you know that for it to be a mortal sin:
-it has to be a serious subject matter (let’s make it murder here)
-this man has to know it’s wrong
-yet he does it of his own free will anyway.

So if he knows that murder is wrong, decides that he’s going to kill his wife anyway, drags her around by her hair (I actually heard a story of a man who did this to his wife), kills her in some heinous fashion and then dies of a heart attack…well, I think this man goes straight where he deserves.

Where do you think he goes? Surely not to heaven, right?

 

[PRmerger]

We definitely must come to Jesus willingly, however; the will to do so again comes from God giving us that will. Not from your flesh deciding on it’s own. Remember Believers were dead in their sins, they could not turn to Jesus unless God made them to do so.

This is very Catholic of you to say, l v l!

 

[paul_c]

I am very glad you understand what I have been trying to explain and that you agree.

Yes, and its important that we apply those principles as we go forward in this discussion.

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone? If so, why do you believe this is not accomplished? Is it fair to say that if God **tries **to do something, but is unable to accomplish it, even if it is the fault of man or any other power, that He has failed to accomplish what He wanted to do? Is it fair to say that man or another power was able to thwart His Will to Save everyone? If it is not fair to make these conclusions then please explain why it is not.

God can do anything he wants, by definition, and no one can thwart it… That’s not the issue here. The issue is understanding what God wants and how he wants it. God is both merciful and just. He will save anyone who asks to be saved but he will also condemn all those that turn away from him. While he wants all men to be saved, he wants men to have free will even more. This is why Calvinism is wrong, because it assume that God would make a man for the sole purpose of condemning him. God gives everyone the chance to enter eternal life. Unfortunately all do not take advantage of that. After all, do you believe that EVERYONE goes to heaven? That would be hard to reconcile with Matthew 7: 21-23.

How do you reconcile these verses? If these are true, then it would seem God accomplishes all that He chooses to accomplish without question.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.

Prov 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Prov 16: 33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.

Lam 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?
39 Why should the living complain
when punished for their sins?

Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”

Of course God is omnipotent. No one debates this, do they?

How does anyone answer His call or request grace if they are dead in sin?

Catholics are not Calvinists. We don’t believe that men are dead in sin. We do believe that all men are born with original sin (with the exception of Mary and of course, Jesus), but that doesn’t preclude man from accepting God’s grace. After all, we know from Genesis that man was made in the image and likeness of God and that everything God made was good.

Why do you believe the Grace given only atones for prior sins when scripture tells us:

Heb 7:22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

None of these passages says that future sins are forgiven. In fact, it makes no sense for God to condone future sins against him. Read Romans 3, it specifically says that grace is for sins previously committed:
21But now* the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. 24They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth as an expiation,* through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, 26through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus. :

 

[paul_c]

Just a hypothetical. If there was a man who believed in Christ as his Savior and he lived his life in a “state of Grace”, never once committing a “mortal sin” until immediately before His death. He commits this sin and immediately has a heart attack so there is no time to make it to a “priest”. What do you believe happens to this man? I’m really just wondering.

Scripture is clear on this. If a sinful man repents, he is forgiven. if a just man apostacizes, he is condemned.

How does one enter the “state of Grace”?

By being baptized.

I do believe a Believer must do “good works” (by the Spirit, through the flesh) in order to stay in right standing with God and if this is not done then the person in chastened. However, I do not believe the Bible tells us that this has a bearing on Believers entering Heaven or not.

Sure it does and in lots of places. Lets look at Luke10
25* There was a scholar of the law* who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?” 27He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

How do you “align yourself to God’s will”? Is it of your flesh or is it of the Spirit of God. IOW do any of the “good works” **come from your flesh **or do they all come from the Spirit of God working through your flesh?

man is a corporal being, composed of both body and spirit. Good works come from cooperating with God. but you can also choose to disobey God through sin. There is personal merit in obeying God.

 

[PRmerger]

Would it have been impossible for God to have created and molded Mary in such a way that of her own “free will” she would have rejected the Lord?

God did indeed create Mary in such a way that of her own “free will” she COULD have rejected God. She had the freedom, but she simply never felt compelled to sin and choose her will over God’s.

 

[paul_c]

Again, does true love come from the flesh or does it come from the Spirit of God working through you in spite of your flesh?

I agree 1 Cor 13 speaks of love being the greatest gift. But it is clear from 1 Cor 12 that this is a Spiritual gift and not a gift of the flesh.

1 Cor 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

It is God at work by His Spirit through your flesh despite its evil nature. It is not your flesh choosing to work in conjunction with His Spirit. Your flesh is absolutely contrary to the Spirit at all times.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want.

You are falling into an ancient heresy. Man is composed of both flesh and spirit. The spirit must move the flesh to accomplish anything. Paul was talking about temptations in Galatians 5:17.

I can think of no scripture that tells us our faith gets us into a state of grace. I find that scripture tells us grace gives True Believers the faith needed for Salvation.

How about this one: Romans 3: 21-22:
21But now* the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,n 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;

We definitely must come to Jesus willingly, however; the will to do so again comes from God giving us that will. Not from your flesh deciding on it’s own. Remember Believers were dead in their sins, they could not turn to Jesus unless God made them to do so.

You can’t have it both ways, either we can come to God willingly or we are forced to do so by God. Which is it? The answer is simple. Man does have free will.

Rom 11:11-24 speaks of Israel as a Nation, not as individual people. If you are using this to prove that sins can cause a fall from grace then you are implying sins of a person(s) can cause the fall of others.

Not true. he talks about some of the branches being broken off. This is about individuals falling from grace.

Matthew 7: 21-23 tells us about false professors, those who claimed to be a part of the Church and yet never had true faith (same as the goats in Matt 25). This is not about people who have lost Salvation. Look at verse 23, Jesus says “I never knew you…”, not “I knew you and you failed to do good works” or anything like that. He never knew them, they were never His sheep. Is that all I use to make this conclusion? No. This is an example of one of the texts I speak of when I talk about weeding out “seeming contradictions in Biblical text”.

I don’t read Matthew 7-1-23 that way. I see it as saying that just because you call Jesus Lord, you won’t get to heaven unless you do the father’s will. Whether or not they ever were saved is irrelevant. And by the way, read Matthew 25: 31-46 it talks specifically about the condemnation of people who called Jesus Lord but didn’t love their neighbor.

We must look further to gain a more clear insight. How do you reconcile the belief that one can lose Salvation with these texts?

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, **nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. **

These merely say that Jesus will protect those that do his will. No wherei in these passages does it say that God will condone sin or allow those who apostacize to enter heaven. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

 

[pablope]

I am very glad you understand what I have been trying to explain and that you agree.

How does one enter the “state of Grace”?

I do believe a Believer must do “good works” (by the Spirit, through the flesh) in order to stay in right standing with God and if this is not done then the person in chastened. However, I do not believe the Bible tells us that this has a bearing on Believers entering Heaven or not.

From James 1…26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not [ab]bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained [ac]by the world.

From Matt 25…

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world… 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;…45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[paul_c]

What scripture do you use to support this? What does being “Saved” mean to you?

Saved means you enter into the state of grace.

I believe this to be true. But how can you say this and also say God plan is to have all men Saved and yet they all are not? Either it was in His plan that not all are Saved (as I believe the Bible tells us) or it is His plan that all are Saved and His plan is not carried out.

He desires that all can be saved if they stay in the state of grace until death. But he knows that all will not do this and its also God’s desire that man has free will to come to him or disobey him.

What exactly do you believe God’s plan is?

That is way beyond my ability to discern.

I believe God is omniscient and I believe He knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him even before He created them.The question is, did God create Adam and Eve exactly as He chose or was there only one way in which He could create them? Do you believe it was impossible for God to create them in a way that they, with their free will, would choose not to eat of the tree? If it was in His Sovereign Will that they not eat of the tree, He would have created them in such a way that they would not do so. While they disobeyed God’s revealed Will, they were on one accord just as everything is with His Sovereign Will.

Would it have been impossible for God to have created and molded Mary in such a way that of her own “free will” she would have rejected the Lord?

You bring up good and thoughtful points. Of course God could have made man in such a way that they would do exactly what he wants. (We can do that too, they are called robots). That said, God does know what man will do before he does it, but man still has the freedom to act. Imagine if you will that you are pitted in a one on one basketball game against lebron James, one of the best players in the world. Everyone knows he will win the game, but it still needs to be played. That;s how it is with God.

I don’t necessarily believe you have explained how you believe God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” do not contradict. It is possible that I just misunderstood though.

maybe my attempt above helps…

Thank you for telling me why you pray and that you believe all prayers are answered (by answered in my question I was referring to “answered in the affirmative”, but you answered anyway). What about the additional questions?

Have you ever prayed that the Lord’s Will be changed to align with yours? If not, why not?

I would not be so presumptuous to think I know better than God. But I do pray that my will be aligned with God’s plan.

Do you pray in the Spirit or in the flesh?

I have no idea how to respond to this. As a human being, I am both spirit and flesh and I can’t separate the two from each other.
What do you do and how do you do it?

Thanks a lot! The kid is a blast.

Enjoy it. They grow up fast

 

[asd72]

You are falling into an ancient heresy. Man is composed of both flesh and spirit. The spirit must move the flesh to accomplish anything. Paul was talking about temptations in Galatians 5:17.

How about this one: Romans 3: 21-22:
21But now* the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,n 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
You can’t have it both ways, either we can come to God willingly or we are forced to do so by God. Which is it? The answer is simple. Man does have free will.

Not true. he talks about some of the branches being broken off. This is about individuals falling from grace.

I don’t read Matthew 7-1-23 that way. I see it as saying that just because you call Jesus Lord, you won’t get to heaven unless you do the father’s will. Whether or not they ever were saved is irrelevant. And by the way, read Matthew 25: 31-46 it talks specifically about the condemnation of people who called Jesus Lord but didn’t love their neighbor.

These merely say that Jesus will protect those that do his will. No wherei in these passages does it say that God will condone sin or allow those who apostacize to enter heaven. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

The term ‘the flesh’ is mostly used to refer to our fallen nature which has an inclination to sin, rather than our physical body, at least as far as I was aware.

Although sometimes Paul uses it to refer to his Israeli blood lineage. (Kinsmen according to the flesh).

 

[I_v_I]

Your link leads to a post with PRMerger, not with anything I said and as such does nothing to support your contention. I reject your claim that I have produced a single contradiction to Scripture, and you have done nothing to demonstrate otherwise. All you have done is revealed your logical errors that you use to judge others.

You are in such a rush to disagree with me, you don’t have time to read lol. I’ll help you out, I went to the link I posted and copied and pasted for you. Now you can fire back with no delays…

Contradictions of Catholic teachings copied from convo with PR:

 

[I_v_I]

Avoiding the issue. Why would we pray for God’s will to be done if God’s Will is always done? That’s stupid.

You can’t be serious??

Chapter and verse please. And why would God need to write down a commandment for you to do something when He apparently has already willed it to be done and it will happen anyhow? That makes no sense at all.

Matt 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matt 26:41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

God is not limited to doing only things that make sense to you.

Why fear? and what does prayer do to alter this fear?,

You don’t?

I don’t pray to not fear God…

Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

You completely made that up. Chapter and verse please

Really?

Mark 9:29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.”

Mark 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
.

Are you really going to say that when people don’t pray it is because God has willed that they not pray? Honestly, this is a senseless discussion.

I sure am. And we agree lol.

Perhaps your sleep deprivation explains a lot…

Shouldn’t make jokes when your Biblical knowledge continues to show itself bare.

My next post will say, "You are all shook up"

It should have said, “I’m off to read the Bible.”

 

[I_v_I]

I do believe a Believer must do “good works” (by the Spirit, through the flesh) in order to stay in right standing with God and if this is not done then the person in chastened. However, I do not believe the Bible tells us that this has a bearing on Believers entering Heaven or not.

Apologies. I wrote this incorrectly. It should have read…

I do believe a Believer must do “good works” (by the Spirit, through the flesh) in order to stay in right standing with God and if this is not done then the person in chastened. However, I do not believe the Bible tells us that this has a bearing on Believers falling out of Salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Avoiding the issue. Why would we pray for God’s will to be done if God’s Will is always done? That’s stupid.

You can’t be serious??

I will answer for myself: dead serious.

Your paradigm makes prayer of intention entirely futile. It’s an absurdity to push against a mountain that has no intention of moving. Yet in your paradigm, we must push against it just because it’s good for us. Why? How?

*You *can’t be serious. I don’t think you’ve thought out your man-made paradigm, l v l.

 

[Philthy]

So, do you believe God tries to Save everyone?

 

[paul_c]

Contradictions of Catholic teachings copied from convo with PR:

Again, you believe this because you misunderstand or don’t know Catholic Teaching. Lets go through your points:

You’ll believe The Almighty God needs your cooperation to accomplish His will in spite of the Bible telling you blatantly that God’s will is always accomplished just as He wishes. And in your case, you even believe God needs your cooperation to create. How can you not see the folly in this? Raising man - Lowering God

Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

No, we don’t believe that God needs our cooperation to accomplish his will. . You see God is great enough that he can be fully sovereign while allowing man to exercise his own free will. Thus, Catholics actually have a higher view of both God and Man than the theology that you espouse. Because you render man no better than an automaton, playing the role for which he was built and you render God no better than a man who can program a computer to carry out his wishes. Recognize that God can see everything, past, present and future at once, and that his plan can anticipate man’s choices before he makes them, without forcing man to do anything against his own will.

You believe Christ’s shed blood on the cross was not a sufficient sacrifice for your sins. Therefore, you believe you must add works in your own power (your own sacrifices) to cover what His blood was not sufficiently able to accomplish. And you don’t see that you might as well be sacrificing bulls and goats each day. Raising man - Lowering God

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

You really don’t understand Catholicism at all. Hopefully your time on this website will give you a better understanding. Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross opened up the possibility of heaven for all. And because of that sacrifice we can enter the state of grace through baptism and be saved. But once we are given this free gift of grace, we become obligated to do God’s will. If we do, we remain in the state of grace and will enter heaven. If however, we turn away from God through sin, we will be condemned to hell. Its not about earning our way to heaven, its about fulfilling our obligation to God. We aren’t helping God - he needs no help. We are simply living our life as he wants us to live it when we do his will. This is for our benefit, not his. You are a parent. If you do everything for your child, they can not mature. The same goes for us and God is the ultimate parent.

You believe, Christ is not able to hold you in His hands without your help. You believe you are stronger through your sin, than He and the Father, although He tells us no one is. Raising man - Lowering God

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Of course he can hold us in his hands. But God is pure love, doing things for us even though we can never repay him. In his love for us, he respects our own will and gives us the choice to love him back or not. Forcing us to do his will would be tyrrany, not love. I would say we have a much higher opinion of God than what you propose.

You believe you can overpower Christ by rejecting the “grace” He is trying to give you, however He can’t because your rejection of Him is too powerful. Raising man - Lowering God

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

No, we don’t believe that we can overpower Jesus by rejecting his grace. God offers his grace to anyone who desires it. That is pure love. Your view of God is a tyrant who forces everthing in creation to do his will. In doing so, you lower both God and man. You look at God as if he were a human king. God’s ways are much higher than that. I don’t see why you think man’s ability to choose could in anyway diminish the glory of God. Is God so weak that he would require that every choice be his?

The teachings of the Catholic faith do not describe the All Powerful God of the Bible. Rather He has been made to seem weak, so much so that He is even subservient to man.

I hope you see by now that this is an weak and false charactature of the Catholic Faith. God is so powerful that he can allow man free will and still accomplish his plan perfectly.

 

[paul_c]

IvsI
by the way, you seem to imply in previous posts that there is no reason to pray for what you want. But you know, Jesus doesn’t agree with you (Luke 11):

5And he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend to whom he goes at midnight and says, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6for a friend of mine has arrived at my house from a journey and I have nothing to offer him,’ 7and he says in reply from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been locked and my children and I are already in bed. I cannot get up to give you anything.’ 8I tell you, if he does not get up to give him the loaves because of their friendship, he will get up to give him whatever he needs because of his persistence.

The Answer to Prayer.c 9“And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.d 10For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11What father among you would hand his son a snake when he asks for a fish? 12Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg? 13If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the holy Spirit* to those who ask him?”

So doesn’t this make it clear that God listens to our desires and does in fact grant our wishes as appropriate?