Good work = salvation is it true?

[NewsTheMan]

Absolutely. They will be the ones saying, “Lord, Lord…”

And how do you know you’re not one of them? After all, since it is possible to truly believe you are a real, true believer who is saved but in reality you are not… you may be one of them!

 

[I_v_I]

And how do you know you’re not one of them?

I don’t. Today however, I am confident that I am not a FB.

After all, since it is possible to truly believe you are a real, true believer who is saved but in reality you are not… you may be one of them!

Indeed. This is why I must examine my life each day to see that I am “still in the faith”. A TB’s life should mirror what scripture says a TB looks like. I must continue in my faith in Christ, my lifestyle should change, I should not live in sin, I should love my brethren, I should do good works, I should obey my Lord’s commands and when I fall I should be repentant for sinning against Him.

 

[I_v_I]

How does that effect the point that Jesus calls all men to himself, not “some men.”

“All kinds of men” is very different compared to all men. “All kinds” includes some people from every tribe, tounge, people, nation.

“All men” means every single person.

But it does not follow that if you lose your faith and apostacize, that you will still be welcomed into heaven.

Never said anything like this.

I don’t know who you have been asking. The answer is not difficult at all. The teachings are infallible. However, inevitably people fail to understand and to follow those teachings perfectly. That is why there is continual correction of those people in the new testament epistles and in revelation.

You have not answered the question either.

 

[paul_c]

“All kinds of men” is very different compared to all men. “All kinds” includes some people from every tribe, tounge, people, nation.

“All men” means every single person.

It says ALLMEN or EVERY Man. It doesn’t say “all Kinds of men” . You added that.

You have not answered the question either.

I most certainly did answer the question. I told you that the teachings were infallible, even if those following the teachings didn’t do so perfectly. Why don’t you think I answered the question?

 

[paul_c]

I don’t. Today however, I am confident that I am not a FB.

Have you been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Indeed. This is why I must examine my life each day to see that I am “still in the faith”. A TB’s life should mirror what scripture says a TB looks like. I must continue in my faith in Christ, my lifestyle should change, I should not live in sin, I should love my brethren, I should do good works, I should obey my Lord’s commands and when I fall I should be repentant for sinning against Him.

All true. A Catholic would say this too. Two things that would be different:
→ Catholics would get the grace giving sacraments. Read scripture and see that they are there.
→ Catholics don’t really worry about whether they are saved. They know there is no way to know so they focus their attention on loving to the best of their ability and trust in God to do the rest.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t. Today however, I am confident that I am not a FB.

And this brings us back to Mr. Martignoni’s dialogue with a OSAS believer:

Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?

Answer: I just know.

Question: How do you know?

Answer: I just do.

 

[PRmerger]

Absolutely. They will be the ones saying, “Lord, Lord…”

This, then, is a great example of why there is no such thing as assurance of salvation, if you believe there’s such a thing as the Faux Believer.

For you could be one of those who thinks he’s saved, but isn’t.

And, thus, there* is *no assurance of your salvation.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Talking to many people that believed in OSAS I understood the following.
What they meant by Saved, it was that they became child of God.
In a translation they were saying “Once child of God, always child of God”.

We as Catholics believe that we are becoming child of God at baptism.
Salvation for Catholics means a process of getting to Heaven.
Saved means somebody is in Heaven already.

How one can get to Heaven?
By Grace through Faith.
Grace - Jesus died for us on the Cross. He offers us an eternal life. It’s a God’s gift.
Faith - if you believe to someone then you do what he/she tells you to do. That’s why we listen what Jesus teaches us and do what He says. That’s our acceptance of the Grace.

Good works are a result of accepting the Grace. We can ask if there are no good works are we sure we are accepting the Grace?

 

[fbl9]

I don’t. Today however, I am confident that I am not a FB.

Indeed. This is why I must examine my life each day to see that I am “still in the faith”. A TB’s life should mirror what scripture says a TB looks like. I must continue in my faith in Christ, my lifestyle should change, I should not live in sin, I should love my brethren, I should do good works, I should obey my Lord’s commands and when I fall I should be repentant for sinning against Him.

And FB does then same and comes to the same conclusion as you do. And the circle continues,till you both die then God says hey both of yous are FB’s see yuh in hell.:shrugsas is one of the most illogicall doctrines i have ever heard of.
Why should one repent of sins if they have already been forgiven. no point since forgiveness has already been granted, before it was sought.makes absolutely no sense to seek that which one already posseses(sic).
there is no sin which seperates a FB and a TB since all sin is equal.
Since one does have sin in their life, it can be said of that person, that they are living a life of sin.

 

[Philthy]

Since my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” is so non Biblical I would like to know what exactly Catholics find in it that is against scripture.

I’ve explained this a number of times to you, and it (along with your misunderstanding of the phases of salvation during this life) is a critical link between your misunderstanding of the relationship of good works and entering Heaven when we die.

Are you ready to listen?

Your current understanding of God’s sovereignty is that it renders man’s actions relating to salvation as irrelevant in the sense that man simply acts according to God’s will and therefore whatever God has willed for an individual cannot be changed by the individual. I have told a number of times that it is God’s Sovereign Will that our choices have eternal consequences. Just as God allows his rain to fall on the good and the bad, he gives grace to all to allow them the opportunity to be saved.

And so the fundamental issue you continue to ignore is the claim that God has sovereignly willed that our choices have eternal consequences and that is why our actions can have salvific consequences. It is not that complicated. God remains entirely sovereign and everything he has willed is accomplished. Deal with it.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Indeed. This is why I must examine my life each day to see that I am “still in the faith”. A TB’s life should mirror what scripture says a TB looks like. I must continue in my faith in Christ, my lifestyle should change, I should not live in sin, I should love my brethren, I should do good works, I should obey my Lord’s commands and when I fall I should be repentant for sinning against Him.

So, a True Believer must do good works. All of the above mentioned are considered good works.

If not for those good works, then you are right. You are not still in the faith, which equates to not having faith, or having a dead faith, which cannot save according to St. James.

So, if good works are linked to having a live faith and that live faith is necessary for salvation, then good works are necessary for salvation as well.

If A is required for B and B is necessary for C, then A is necessary for C.

A - Good works
B - Faith
C - Salvation

I am basing this purely on your posts.

In accordance with OSAS, can a person who was a TB for… Say 30 years and then falls out of those good works and then commences a life in sin, will that person still be saved?

I hope you say no, and you would be right.

OSAS misses a major part of human nature (according to the Fall): that even the most faithful of believers can still sin and do still sin and can fall away from the faith and go into a life of sin.

How does it resolve that issue?

 

[PRmerger]

Even if he didn’t repent, he’s still in? His soul is pure? He is clean?

Seriously?

Could you please answer this question? How can a murderer or suicide enter heaven when nothing unclean can enter heaven? Is his soul pure with the black stain of murder and hatred (of others or of self) on it?

 

[PRmerger]

You obviously misunderstood my question or did not read the post altogether. It referred to the quoted text below the question. There is actually no scripture quoted there.

So you *don’t *use Scripture to back up your paradigm?

Now I’m really

Well that is just a bold faced lie. I actually expected more from you PR. Please point out the verses I have excluded from scripture. Take your time lol.

Not sure where this emotional and irrational response stems from. You have indeed only quoted certain sections of Scripture. If you want me to point out certain verses you’ve excluded from Scripture I will.

How about this one:
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:48[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve never seen you quote that.

Or this one:
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11.[/BIBLEDRB]

I’ve never seen you quote that either.

You have quoted, in our dialogue, some verses from Romans and Hebrews, but that leaves about 25 other books in the NT that you’ve excluded.

Again, please justify this expounding of your lie.

I guess I’ll continue…

I think you’ve excluded

[BIBLEDRB]John 6:52[/BIBLEDRB]

and

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:21[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

But first, please address my initial question from above. Since my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” is so non Biblical I would like to know what exactly Catholics find in it that is against scripture.

This article addresses your questions.

excerpt:
You can obtain supernatural life by yielding to actual graces you receive. God keeps giving you these divine pushes, and all you have to do is go along.

For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the
confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted (John 20:21–23). Through the sacrament of penance, through your reconciliation to God, you receive sanctifying grace. But you can lose it again by sinning mortally (1 John 5:16–17).

Keep that word in mind: mortal. It means death. Mortal sins are deadly sins because they kill off this supernatural life, this sanctifying grace. Mortal sins can’t coexist with the supernatural life, because by their nature such sins are saying “No” to God, while sanctifying grace would be saying “Yes.”

Venial sins don’t destroy supernatural life, and they don’t even lessen it. Mortal sins destroy it outright. The trouble with venial sins is that they weaken us, making us more vulnerable to mortal sins.

When you lose supernatural life, there’s nothing you can do on your own to regain it. You’re reduced to the merely natural life again, and no natural act can merit a supernatural reward. You can merit a supernatural reward only by being made able to act above your nature, which you can do only if you have help—grace.

To regain supernatural life, you have to receive actual graces from God. Think of these as helping graces. Such graces differ from sanctifying grace in that they aren’t a quality of the soul and don’t abide in it. Rather, actual graces enable the soul to perform some supernatural act, such as an act of faith or repentance. If the soul responds to actual grace and makes the appropriate supernatural act, it again receives supernatural life.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t. Today however, I am confident that I am not a FB.

Except that every FB also is quite confident that he’s not a FB.

That means that there’s no assurance of salvation, because…

how does one know if he’s not one of those hapless folks who’s confident that he’s not a FB but actually is?

OSAS is, as someone else said (fbl9) one of the most illogical (and unscriptural) of doctrines, but the addition of “Well, he’s a Faux Believer and I’m a True Believer and I just know in my heart that I simply couldn’t be a Faux Believer because my heart just tells me so” makes the paradigm truly an absurdity.

 

[I_v_I]

It says ALLMEN or EVERY Man. It doesn’t say “all Kinds of men” . You added that.

And the Bible never says “trinity”, but it is inferred from scripture as a whole, no one “added” it.

I most certainly did answer the question. I told you that the teachings were infallible, even if those following the teachings didn’t do so perfectly. Why don’t you think I answered the question?

You most certainly did not… the question was:

quote from I v I

I’ll ask you a question I’ve asked several times and have yet to get an answer.** How many “early churches” can you find in the Bible that were infallible? Now how many can you find that were screwed up? Now why do you believe “early church” interpretations were infallible?**

Your reply was:

quote from paul c

I don’t know who you have been asking. The answer is not difficult at all. The teachings are infallible. However, inevitably people fail to understand and to follow those teachings perfectly. That is why there is continual correction of those people in the new testament epistles and in revelation.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
It says ALLMEN or EVERY Man. It doesn’t say “all Kinds of men” . You added that.

This is completely different. You are adding to scripture to change its meaning to fit your own personal theology. You know that this is not helping you .

Quote:
I most certainly did answer the question. I told you that the teachings were infallible, even if those following the teachings didn’t do so perfectly. Why don’t you think I answered the question?

Again,
How many churches can you find in the new testament that were infallible. 1. The one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which taught and continues to teach the one true faith given to the apostles by Jesus himself… There was one Church made up of many local communities.

How many can you find that were screwed up: All of them. While they taught the truth, humans being what they are, they had a hard time living up to the teachings of Christ as a group.

Why do I think that early church teachings are infallible? Because they come directly from Jesus through the Apostles. You judge the church on the basis of its saints, those that follow the teaching to its fullness, not on the basis of the sinners, those that don’t. And remember, the Church is a hospital for sinners.

 

[I_v_I]

This, then, is a great example of why there is no such thing as assurance of salvation, if you believe there’s such a thing as the Faux Believer.

Wow. Once again the assurance is from God’s perspective. Once He Saves (i.e. gives someone faith to believe), the person is always Saved, they have received Salvation through Christ. He will never let them fall from Salvation. From this point on they will never lose faith in Jesus as their Savior, they will persevere in the faith until death. The person will still sin, but they will never be able to sin themselves out of Christ’s hands.

Even though the person does not have total assurance, it doesn’t matter. The person is supposed to work out his/her Salvation in fear and trembling. The assurance is in the hands of the Lord. OSAS does not depend on the assurance of the individual person. The assurance is upheld by a God that will not fail to Save those He chooses to Save.

For you could be one of those who thinks he’s saved, but isn’t.

Again. I sure could be. But if God has Saved me, then I have a True Faith in Christ and it is a faith that I will continue in until death. If the Lord has yet to Save me, then I have a false faith and if the Lord never Saves me then I will fall “out of the faith” (quotes bc I was never really in the faith), or continue in my false delusion till death where I will learn that I never had true faith in Christ and realize that I was following the lusts of my own flesh and not the fruits of the Spirit.

And, thus, there* is *no assurance of your salvation.

And thus you have yet to understand where the assurance lies.

 

[I_v_I]

Are you ready to listen?

Been listening the entire time. Obviously I’m too dull to understand. This is why I have given a fictional representation of my understanding so that you can tell me exactly what problems you see I have. Maybe then I will understand what it is you are saying.

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man (Believer who killed his wife). And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will, rob the man’s home and in the process kill the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I hope this clears up my understanding…

This is my understanding.

In Catholic understanding, would this be a representation of a Just God?

Would Catholic understanding see this as being non Biblical because it shows God Willing men to do His bidding?

In Catholic understanding, is it non Biblical for God to change or manipulate the will of man?

In Catholic understanding, is it unjust for God to hold the individual responsible after commissioning and allowing them to commit these acts?

 

[I_v_I]

So, a True Believer must do good works. All of the above mentioned are considered good works.

A more accurate wording for my representation of a TB is:

A TB WILL DO good works. They do these good works as a result of being Saved and receiving a new heart. They do not do them in order to be saved.

If not for those good works, then you are right. You are not still in the faith, which equates to not having faith, or having a dead faith, which cannot save according to St. James.

If someone professes to be a Believer and does not do good works (i.e. does not show fruit of the Spirit, but rather continual works of the flesh), then they should not be recognized as TBs. It is probable that they have not been Saved and therefore have never been in the faith.

So, if good works are linked to having a live faith and that live faith is necessary for salvation, then good works are necessary for salvation as well.

If A is required for B and B is necessary for C, then A is necessary for C.

A - Good works
B - Faith
C - Salvation

I am basing this purely on your posts.

In my understanding A(good works) is not required to obtain B(faith). A(good works) are a result of B(faith).

You have the wrong order of things if you are basing off my posts. The order is Grace/Faith/Salvation/Good Works

A - Grace
B - Faith
C - Salvation
D - Good Works

A is required for B-D, B is the result of A and required for C-D, C is the result of A-B and required for D, D is the result of A-C

In accordance with OSAS, can a person who was a TB for… Say 30 years and then falls out of those good works and then commences a life in sin, will that person still be saved?

If they never repent and return to a God fearing life then it will be known that this person was never a TB and had been a FB for 30 years. They were never Saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

OSAS misses a major part of human nature (according to the Fall): that even the most faithful of believers can still sin and do still sin and can fall away from the faith and go into a life of sin.

TBs do sin, but they will be repentant of this sin and return to right standing with the Lord. However, in their fall to sin, they never lose faith or Salvation. If a person “falls away from the faith” as in, no longer believes Christ is Lord, then they never had true faith and never had been Saved. They were FBs.