Good work = salvation is it true?

[steve_b]

That being said, I’ve asked a direct question (post 256) and have yet to receive an answer from you, PR or Steve b. Should we put that on the record books???

I didn’t realize I was included in that

Here’s your premise (emphasis mine)
I:

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this. I’ll use this example to explain what I believe:

With my understanding of God’s Sovereignty and man’s “free will” God can and will chasten this man (Believer who killed his wife). And He can do this by using any just means He wishes. I** believe He can use the life of an unbeliever to sin against the man that killed his wife so that he will be taught a lesson**.

For instance the Lord can use an unbeliever to, of his own will,* rob*** the man’s home and in the process **kill **the man’s child. The man will do it of his own purposes, whatever they may be (greed, hate, etc.), but unknown to him the true reason he will be doing it is to carry out the Lord’s work.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

*I hope this clears up my understanding… This is my understanding. *

1. 
   *]In Catholic understanding, would this be a representation of a Just God?
   *]Would Catholic understanding see this as being non Biblical because it shows God Willing men to do His bidding?
   *]In Catholic understanding, is it non Biblical for God to change or manipulate the will of man?
   *]In Catholic understanding, is it unjust for God to hold the individual responsible after commissioning and allowing them to commit these acts?

1. 
   Hope you don’t mind, for ease of response, I numbered your questions based on highlighted text
   
   Your last statement he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do. imo, attempts to create a conclusion that God is the architect of all that is bad, and we are mere pawns in various side shows.
   
   Re: answers to your questions
   1. 
      *]N. as stated
      *]N. as stated. God doesn’t will evil
      *]I have a problem with using manipulating as an example
      *]N. as stated. God doesn’t commission anyone to do evil. (I’d be happy to discuss that)
      
      Would God incarnate, live, die a horrible death, rise from the dead, create His Church, the sacraments, etc etc etc, and ascend back to heaven for pawns and puppets? He did all that for theater? No. & No.

 

[Philthy]

lol. You are just as bad as PR…

Thank you! I take that as a compliment.
In discussing the issue of good works and their relationship to salvation, am I mistaken is saying that you believe our good works (and our failure to do them) contribute nothing toward salvation? Y or N? It certainly seemed that that was your position since you opposed the Catholic notion that “we are justified by works and not by faith alone”. If that is not the case, I have no idea why you have been debating.

I’ve never stated our actions don’t have consequences.

This is very different from actually stating that our actions (whatever the “our” means to you) have salvific consequences. Are you prepared to admit that they do? If so, please say so.
Additionally, I understand the term “our actions” to mean those actions which are entirely of our choosing in the sense that God will allow both choice A and choice B and what is actually chosen is of our choosing. We are not forced by God in any sense to make the choice we make. Is that your understanding of “our actions”? Y or N, please.

However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God.

No one has ever claimed that they do.

If it happens, it happens because God Willed it to be so and vice versa. To believe otherwise is again to contradict with the vast amount of scriptures that states God’s Will is always done.

And it is this exact point that I tried to articulate more clearly. You keep saying that nothing happens outside of God’s Will in the sense that EVERYTHING that happens EXACTLY the way that it happens is CAUSED TO HAPPEN by God. Is this a fair representation of your position? Y or N?
Based upon this understanding of God’s will, you seemed to have rejected the notion of our choosing to do good works as contributing nothing toward salvation since, really, it is God who is controlling events. Again, is this a fair assessment - Y or N?
And it is this aspect of understanding of God’s Will that we disagree on. You seem to see God’s Will as fixing events very much like a puppetere controls a puppet. I was trying to say that my understanding is that it is God’s Will that our free, independent, choices are real and that He has willed that they can have salvific consequences. With this understanding, God is still Sovereign for a number of reasons: First, it is only because He has willed it that our choices can have eternal consequences; second any good works we choose to do are “prepared in advance” by Him; and lastly, He is still the judge when our days of choosing are over (ie end of mortal life). So in my understanding, God has (according to his sovereign will) made us in His image and given us the ability to make choices that have eternal consequences. The vast majority of the NT letters are directed toward using this unique privelege properly so that we will remain united to Christ and that when our choosing days are over we will be judged worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God. I think if you read my assessment of Paul’s letter to the Galatians you will find that the most reasonable conclusion is he wrote it as an attempt to change behavior that he believed was capable of being changed. And he wrote it to change behavior that jeopardized their salvation: “you have fallen from grace…you are separated from Christ”

However, again you’ll don’t mind doing this.

I honestly think it is a failure of communication. The subtleties of communicating the intricacies of Man’s free will and God’s will are numerous and difficult. This thread format is not very good for digging deep - there are too many distractions from the main topic.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

lol. Philthy, I had no idea the point you were trying to make then, nor do I know now. I don’t even know how to comment on this??? Maybe if you reword it I can.

Yeah, maybe I wasnt clear enough…lemme try again. My point was that IF God CAUSES all things to happen EXACTLY AS THEY HAPPEN, then we don’t actually have any control. If we don’t have any control then we should not be able to predict the future(ie, my next post). But if I CAN predict the future (ie my next post) THEN I must either be making real choices and influencing events OR I must know God’s Will for the future. I believe my ability to predict my future post is because I have the ability to control future events to a certain degree. What is your understanding of my accurate prediction? Was it lucky? Was it a knowledge of God’s Will? Or was it simply that we can control some things (to the degree that God has Sovereignly willed that we can)?
I v I:

While I don’t answer or respond to everything here, I think I have done a pretty good job of keeping up. There is one of me and several of you.

To tell you the truth I’m jealous! You answer what you want when you want and everything is directed to you - we have to wait and hope to get a response. I’ve often said that it would be much better to have the discussion limited to 2 people: 1 Catholic(say, Paulc) and 1 non-Catholic (you). If any other Catholic wishes to contribute, they have to send their comments as a PM to paulc and he alone decides what to include in the thread. It’d be much easier for you and more focused for the rest of us as well.
No one has ever taken up this offer, though.

That being said, I’ve asked a direct question (post 256) and have yet to receive an answer from you, PR or Steve b. Should we put that on the record books???

I’ll go take a look - you haven’t asked anything I would mind answering…

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Everyone keeps saying I think God is forcing ppl against their will. This is not the case. I believe the Lord can change and manipulate the will by adding or removing the restraining level of his Spirit so that His plans are always carried out. It has also been said that people should not be held accountable because of this.

OK, so what your saying is God doesnt force people against their will, He forces and manipulates their will to become what He wants it to be and then His plans are carried out by their bodies as a natural consequence of this forcing and manipulating.
IMO that is no different than “forcing people against their will”. Humans rely upon their will to discern a course of action. When you manipulate their will their response will change just as if you had forced them. When you manipulate their will it is no longer their will at all.

In Catholic understanding, would this be a representation of a Just God?

If God were to judge this person based upon their actions which flowed from His manipulation of their will then I would say it is not a representation of a Just God.

Additionally, the man (robber) can and will be held responsible for his actions even though he was being used as an instrument of the Lord and therefore will be punished appropriately. He is still responsible for his actions, because he did them of his own “free will”, he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do.

I have no problem with God exercising his omnipotence and sovereignty to bring about an end He has deemed just. I don’t, however, believe this example has anything to do with the original situation in which God “manipulated and forced” the will of the individual to be something other than what it was. If God “manipulates and forces” our will to become something different we are no longer responsible for the consequences which flow from that will. At least that is my understanding of justice.

In Catholic understanding, would this be a representation of a Just God?

Using the free will choices of a thief, YES; changing someone’s will so that they become a thief and then condemning the man for being what God caused him to be - NO.

Would Catholic understanding see this as being non Biblical because it shows God Willing men to do His bidding?

No, it would be non Biblical because it isn’t in the Bible.

In Catholic understanding, is it non Biblical for God to change or manipulate the will of man?

Definitely not - we pray for God to do this to make us more like Him. It is usually expressed as changing our “heart”. You know the song:
Change my heart, oh God. Make it ever true.
Change my heart oh God, may I be like you.
You are the potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and mend me, this is what I pray…

In an absolute sense it isn’t just for God to change our hearts and judge us as good - it’s merciful and gracious.

In Catholic understanding, is it unjust for God to hold the individual responsible after commissioning and allowing them to commit these acts?

I don’t know what you mean by commissioning. If you mean God caused them to commit the act by manipulating their will, then I would guess that it is unjust.

I hope this clears up my understanding. These questions don’t seem to relate to the issue of good works and salvation IMHO.

Blessings!

 

[I_v_I]

Specifically, I’d like to know how you reconcile a murderer with an unclean soul being in heaven with Revelation 21:27.

BTW, kudos to you for sticking around and being the lone voice of Calvinism here. I imagine it’s not easy being the minority in this situation. And I get that it’s hard to answer every question thrown your way.

He’s not unclean. All those that have received faith in Christ, have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them. He is as clean as Christ in terms of sin.

Thanks for the kudos.

 

[PRmerger]

He’s not unclean.

Do you understand what you’re saying? A murderer, who hates, is clean?

I think we both believe that it is only through the atoning death of Christ that we can be cleansed…but you are saying that God sees untruth. When a man is unclean (and no one can deny that a man with HATE on his soul is unclean), God can see only what he is.

God does indeed cleanse us, but only through our repentance and then we become truly clean…until we sin again.

 

[Farsight001]

He’s not unclean. All those that have received faith in Christ, have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them. He is as clean as Christ in terms of sin.

That’s not in the bible.

 

[PRmerger]

He’s not unclean.

This reminds me of a quote I read by Peter Kreeft (paraphrasing): God does not do legal fiction. He does not look upon this murderer and see only Christ’s righteousness, and legally counts or imputes Christ’s righteousness as ours. That would make God a participator in deception. God can only see things as they really are. And a murderer is NOT clean.

He can, however, be cleansed by the blood of Christ.

But then he will be clean, but only after the mortal sin has been erased by the infused grace of Christ.

 

[I_v_I]

Hope you don’t mind, for ease of response, I numbered your questions based on highlighted text

Not at all.

Your last statement he was not forced to do anything he did not want to do. imo, attempts to create a conclusion that God is the architect of all that is bad, and we are mere pawns in various side shows.

While I would agree with the idea that God is the “architect” of all that is “bad”, I would definitely add that He is not the cause of it. God created beings that are not perfect and not being perfect would undoubtedly fall to sin and therefore cause evil. The only way of getting around this fact would be for all of God’s creations to have been created perfect or for God to keep His creation through His Spirit from sinning. In each of these cases, “life” would be perpetually perfect and this obviously would not be affective in accomplishing God’s plans. God was not unaware that His creating imperfect creatures would lead to evil. He was well aware before He did it and in that sense I don’t see a problem with referring to God as the architect of ALL (including the bad).
Would God incarnate, live, die a horrible death, rise from the dead, create His Church, the sacraments, etc etc etc, and ascend back to heaven for pawns and puppets? He did all that for theater? No. & No.

Believers are not pawns or puppets to God, they are His beloved children and non believers are not simply pawns or puppets either, they are His creation of which He is good to. That being said, man is evil without the Spirit of God changing him. If God were not to “manipulate”, nothing good would come from man.

It is definitely not done for theater. God will be glorified from it ALL, even the bad.

 

[paul_c]

He’s not unclean. All those that have received faith in Christ, have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them. He is as clean as Christ in terms of sin.

Thanks for the kudos.

I think you will be very hard pressed to demonstrate that because you believe in Jesus, you have impunity to murder. First of all, Jesus himself said in Matthew 19:

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”* 17He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good.* If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18* He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; 19honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20* The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect,* go, sell what you have and give to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Paul is also clear that those that sin will not inherit the kingdom. In both the referenced letters, he is speaking to believers in the churches he founded.

Ephesians 5:
1So be imitators of God,* as beloved children,
2and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.
3Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,
4no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.
5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Galatians 5:
19* Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, 21occasions of envy,* drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So going back a week or two ago, we discussed that scripture will not contradict itself. Consider how you would reconcile your view to the passages above.

 

[I_v_I]

In discussing the issue of good works and their relationship to salvation, am I mistaken is saying that you believe our good works (and our failure to do them) contribute nothing toward salvation? Y or N?

I have maintained that “good works” are a result of a TB’s Salvation and not a contributing factor to Salvation, neither in part or in whole. At the same time, “good works” are a definite result of Salvation, they WILL be done.

So no, I don’t believe “works” or “works + faith” leads to Salvation, I believe the Bible tells us that true faith in Christ alone leads to Salvation, leading to the Lord working through His Spirit in us to perform “good works”.

This is very different from actually stating that our actions (whatever the “our” means to you) have salvific consequences. Are you prepared to admit that they do? If so, please say so.

Yes. I believe man’s actions have salvific consequences. However, in some cases the origination of these actions is where we disagree.

Additionally, I understand the term “our actions” to mean those actions which are entirely of our choosing in the sense that God will allow both choice A and choice B and what is actually chosen is of our choosing. We are not forced by God in any sense to make the choice we make. Is that your understanding of “our actions”? Y or N, please.

Yes and No. I’ll explain what I mean.

I believe the Bible tells us that in terms of Salvation, man left to himself will indeed make his/her own choice. However, the only choice man of himself can make is to reject Christ. So in this case I agree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

As for those who accept Christ, I believe the Bible tells us that the only way to come to faith in Christ is for God Himself to give it to man. Without Him giving them the faith, they would never have chosen Him. So in this case I disagree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

No one has ever claimed that they do.

This was a response to my quote:

However, I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God.

So then you would agree that it is in the plan of God that not all men are Saved and some people go to hell? And because God is omniscient, this was in His plan from before creation?

And it is this exact point that I tried to articulate more clearly. You keep saying that nothing happens outside of God’s Will in the sense that EVERYTHING that happens EXACTLY the way that it happens is CAUSED TO HAPPEN by God. Is this a fair representation of your position? Y or N?

No, but almost. I believe that the Bible tells us that everything does indeed happen just as God Wills it to happen, rather good, bad or ugly. However, I do not believe It tells us that God CAUSES it all to happen. I believe we are told that God is the cause of all good and creation is the cause of all bad. However, even the bad caused from creation is exactly what God Wills to happen in order to make His glory known.

Based upon this understanding of God’s will, you seemed to have rejected the notion of our choosing to do good works as contributing nothing toward salvation since, really, it is God who is controlling events. Again, is this a fair assessment - Y or N?

I believe Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man. So no, I don’t believe “good works” from man, in part or in whole, contribute to Salvation. Again though, I believe the work of the Lord (not of man) will lead those who have been given faith and therefore have been Saved to do good works. These are the results of true Salvation.

And it is this aspect of understanding of God’s Will that we disagree on. You seem to see God’s Will as fixing events very much like a puppetere controls a puppet. I was trying to say that my understanding is that it is God’s Will that our free, independent, choices are real and that He has willed that they can have salvific consequences. With this understanding, God is still Sovereign for a number of reasons: First, it is only because He has willed it that our choices can have eternal consequences;

I think we can all agree that God is omniscient, and He is the only One Who creates, and when He creates He creates perfectly (meaning He makes no mistakes in creating His creations).

Your choices are a direct result of how God chose to create you in tandem with the environment He chose to place you in. Before God created you He knew exactly what you were going to do in every single situation you were going to be in. NOT ONLY because He is omniscient, but also because He is creating you (your looks, 5 senses, attitude, personality, mind, all else) and creating the environment you will be in and will see exactly how His creation of you will react in every single situation you will ever be in. If at any point in God’s omniscient view of your life before He created you He sees that you would react in a way He truly does not want. He could “edit” His creation of you before He actually created you so that you would react as He pleased. And if He left that “defect” in you, it was still a result of God Willing that you act in opposition to His Revealed Will. Now of course the “editing” is simply to illustrate my point, God needs to edit nothing as He is perfect.

So even if you hold to this idea of God’s Sovereignty, you still have to come up with a theory that separates your choices from God’s initial creation in order to say they are totally of yourself. If not, it would seem your choices are still bound by the Will of God in a way that you seem to be apposed to.

 

[I_v_I]

second any good works we choose to do are “prepared in advance” by Him;

 

[steve_b]

Not at all.

While I would agree with the idea that God is the “architect” of all that is “bad”, I would definitely add that He is not the cause of it.

Working from the following

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (Jas 5:13–14).

One needs to ask, how then did evil get here if God can’t be tempted or can He tempt anyone.?

Our desires were allowed to diverge from God’s so He could have mercy on us. [Rom 11:32]

I would argue that God didn’t create evil, evil was allowed as a radical possibility, as a result of free will. It will be interesting to find out someday, how long it took Lucifer to go from perfect, to his fall.
I:

God created beings that are not perfect and not being perfect would undoubtedly fall to sin and therefore cause evil. The only way of getting around this fact would be for all of God’s creations to have been created perfect or for God to keep His creation through His Spirit from sinning.

We know that in the beginning, God DID make Adam and Eve perfect. They just didn’t stay that way. A radical possibility of free will, as free will itself is a radical gift from God.
I:

man is evil without the Spirit of God changing him. If God were not to “manipulate”, nothing good would come from man.

How is God by allowing something to happen, a function of Him manipulating? Remember, according to James, God can’t be tempted nor does he tempt. [Jas 5:13-14]

 

[steve_b]

While I would agree with the idea that God is the “architect” of all that is “bad”, I would definitely add that He is not the cause of it.

Working from the following

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (Jas 1:13–14).

One could ask, how then did evil get here if God can’t be tempted or can He tempt anyone.?

a possibility of free will, (paraphrased) Our desires are allowed to diverge from God’s so He could have mercy on us. [Rom 11:32]

Given the passage from James, I would argue that God didn’t create evil. Evil was allowed as a radical possibility of free will, just as free will is a radical gift from God to us. The antagonist is Satan and what he did with his free will, and the effects of what Adam and Eve did, but it is NOT God.
I:

God created beings that are not perfect and not being perfect would undoubtedly fall to sin and therefore cause evil. The only way of getting around this fact would be for all of God’s creations to have been created perfect or for God to keep His creation through His Spirit from sinning.

We know that in the beginning, God DID make Adam and Eve perfect. They just didn’t stay that way. Again, a radical possibility of free will, as free will itself is a radical gift from God to us.
I:

man is evil without the Spirit of God changing him. If God were not to “manipulate”, nothing good would come from man.

How is God by allowing something to happen, a function of Him manipulating, considering what James said, God can’t be tempted nor does he tempt. [Jas 1:13-14]

 

[I_v_I]

OK, so what your saying is God doesnt force people against their will, He forces and manipulates their will to become what He wants it to be and then His plans are carried out by their bodies as a natural consequence of this forcing and manipulating.
IMO that is no different than “forcing people against their will”. Humans rely upon their will to discern a course of action. When you manipulate their will their response will change just as if you had forced them. When you manipulate their will it is no longer their will at all.

If God were to judge this person based upon their actions which flowed from His manipulation of their will then I would say it is not a representation of a Just God.

Ok.

I have no problem with God exercising his omnipotence and sovereignty to bring about an end He has deemed just. I don’t, however, believe this example has anything to do with the original situation in which God “manipulated and forced” the will of the individual to be something other than what it was. If God “manipulates and forces” our will to become something different we are no longer responsible for the consequences which flow from that will. At least that is my understanding of justice.

Ok.

Using the free will choices of a thief, YES; changing someone’s will so that they become a thief and then condemning the man for being what God caused him to be - NO.

Just a point of clarification. God did not cause them to sin, they sinned because of their evil hearts which God did not restrain them from acting on.

No, it would be non Biblical because it isn’t in the Bible.

I find otherwise.

Definitely not - we pray for God to do this to make us more like Him. It is usually expressed as changing our “heart”. You know the song:
Change my heart, oh God. Make it ever true.
Change my heart oh God, may I be like you.
You are the potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and mend me, this is what I pray…

In an absolute sense it isn’t just for God to change our hearts and judge us as good - it’s merciful and gracious.

Ok.

I don’t know what you mean by commissioning. If you mean God caused them to commit the act by manipulating their will, then I would guess that it is unjust.

By commissioning I guess I mean “chose”. I don’t mean He caused them to sin though, He allowed them to sin of their own evil hearts.

I hope this clears up my understanding. These questions don’t seem to relate to the issue of good works and salvation IMHO.

I can see how it would seem to be non-relative, but it helps addresses the subject of where TBs good works come from.

 

[I_v_I]

Working from the following

“Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one; but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire” (Jas 1:13–14).

One could ask, how then did evil get here if God can’t be tempted or can He tempt anyone.?

a possibility of free will, (paraphrased) Our desires are allowed to diverge from God’s so He could have mercy on us. [Rom 11:32]

Given the passage from James,** I would argue that God didn’t create evil**. Evil was allowed as a radical possibility of free will, just as free will is a radical gift from God to us. The antagonist is Satan and what he did with his free will, and the effects of what Adam and Eve did, but it is NOT God.

Please understand I’ve never said nor do I believe God created evil. He created imperfect beings that fell to evil temptations.

We know that in the beginning, God DID make Adam and Eve perfect. They just didn’t stay that way. Again, a radical possibility of free will, as free will itself is a radical gift from God to us.

I’ve never read in scripture that Adam and Eve were perfect.

Doesn’t it stand to reason that if they were perfect they would have had to stay perfect on account of them being perfect?

How is God by allowing something to happen, a function of Him manipulating, considering what James said, God can’t be tempted nor does he tempt. [Jas 1:13-14]

He doesn’t passively just allow it to happen. He actively Wills it to happen. He actively sends the man to commit the acts of his own heart. God does not tempt, the man falls to sin from His own evil heart or he falls to the temptations of Satan, who is God’s tool.

 

[I_v_I]

My quote:

Originally Posted by I v I View Post
He’s not unclean. All those that have received faith in Christ, have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them. He is as clean as Christ in terms of sin.

Your response:

That’s not in the bible.

Sure it is…

Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
**
Rom4:20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief** regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why** “it was credited to him as righteousness.”** 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin** for us, **so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. ****

 

[I_v_I]

Yep–in my many, many conversations with OSAS advocates l v l is the ONLY one who’s ever admitted that it’s true that he really could think he’s saved but not be.

Huge admission.

However, it’s not the paradigm of the OSAS advocate.

This is a novelty, as you correctly point out, to say that OSAS teaches that God knows who’s saved but that the Christian doesn’t.

Heck, if that’s truly what OSAS, then no Catholic would disagree with that. Of course all Catholics believe that from God’s perspective He knows who’s saved and who isn’t.

It seems you still have not understood what Biblical OSAS is even though I have explained it to you several times. I have nothing to do with what other ppl tell you. If you ask me a question you should respond to what I say and not to what others say on the topic otherwise there is no point in asking me.

Once again, Biblical OSAS is about God Saving a soul once and for all. When He Saves a person, they nor anyone/anything else can do anything to cause that person to be “unSaved” and therefore need additional Saving. Hence, once Saved, always Saved.

I highly doubt Catholic teaching agrees with this, but as my advice was to you, I’ll take you at your word for your understanding so, if you say so.

 

[I_v_I]

Yeah, maybe I wasnt clear enough…lemme try again. My point was that IF God CAUSES all things to happen EXACTLY AS THEY HAPPEN, then we don’t actually have any control. If we don’t have any control then we should not be able to predict the future(ie, my next post). But if I CAN predict the future (ie my next post) THEN I must either be making real choices and influencing events OR I must know God’s Will for the future. I believe my ability to predict my future post is because I have the ability to control future events to a certain degree. What is your understanding of my accurate prediction? Was it lucky? Was it a knowledge of God’s Will? Or was it simply that we can control some things (to the degree that God has Sovereignly willed that we can)?

I know you already know this by now, but just for posts sake and anyone just joining. I don’t believe God causes all things to happen. My understanding of this can be seen in previous posts.

In your example I think you are confusing “predicting the future” with simply telling us what you are going to do. They are not the same.

At the same time though, even if you did predict the future you still could not prove that it was not in God’s Will that you did so.

To tell you the truth I’m jealous! You answer what you want when you want and everything is directed to you - we have to wait and hope to get a response. I’ve often said that it would be much better to have the discussion limited to 2 people: 1 Catholic(say, Paulc) and 1 non-Catholic (you). If any other Catholic wishes to contribute, they have to send their comments as a PM to paulc and he alone decides what to include in the thread. It’d be much easier for you and more focused for the rest of us as well.
No one has ever taken up this offer, though.

I can see how this could be frustrating.

 

[steve_b]

Please understand I’ve never said* nor do I believe God created evil.* He created imperfect beings that fell to evil temptations.

I’ve never read in scripture that Adam and Eve were perfect.

Doesn’t it stand to reason that if they were perfect they would have had to stay perfect on account of them being perfect?

He doesn’t passively just allow it to happen. He actively Wills it to happen. He actively sends the man to commit the acts of his own heart. God does not tempt, the man falls to sin from His own evil heart or he falls to the temptations of Satan, who is God’s tool.

1. 
   *]You say you don’t believe God created evil. Yet you say God actively wills evil because He knows humans sin and He keeps creating human beings. That appears like evil is grounded in the will of God rather than evil coming from the demerits of men themselves using their own free will. But maybe I’m misreading you.
   *]Re: Adam and Eve being perfect, I was refering to them being created sinless.