Good work = salvation is it true?

[paul_c]

The following quote is a response to the “fictional” example in the larger quote in this link.

I have been honest. Now I would like you to truly be honest with yourself, not me. I’m not looking for a response. Just take a good look at what the following scripture says.
If what I’ve described in my example is not “REAL free will” what do you believe the Assyrians had?

Although it is clear from Isaiah that God used the Assyrians for his purpose, it does not mean that each Assyrian didn’t have the opportunity to chose right from wrong within the context of his situation

Were the Assyrian’s God’s puppets He used to carry out His purpose?

Yes, from the perspective that they were sent to chastise the Israelites. Every person is put in unique situations as the context of his life. You and I are in specific situations as well, But each individual still has the freedom to choose right from wrong

How does what you have said align or misalign with this description of the One True God?

It aligns . You see, God puts all of us in unique situations - time, place, parents, children, skills , etc. And then within the context of those situations, we are given the abilit to chose right or wrong - to enter and stay in the state of grace and go to heaven, or to turn from God and be condemned.

Is this an example of God using evil for good?

No, God is creating a specific situation for each man to live out his life. He creates hardships and successes to test every man. These are neither good or evil, just the situations under which we live. Evil is a choice to turn from God.

How does this change your understanding of “free will”?

It doesn’t. It gives me another forum to help you understand the Catholic teacings.

In light of this, is there such a thing as free will?

Of course there is. Lets explore a few choices that an assyrian soldier might have to do good or evil. He comes up against a defensive Israelite. He can either kill that Israelite, capture him or let him go. he has the choice to do anyof them.

If this scripture is true, what does it say about Catholic understanding of “free will” and man’s ability to choose?

It just gives me the opportunity to re-enforce the fact that while we have the ability of chosing good or evil, we don’t alwasy get the opportunity to decide in which environment we get to make those choices.

What happens to those who believe, “By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, For I have understanding…”? Could the same fate fall on those who believe they have a hand in their “Salvation”?

I trust the Church. It has extreme credibility from being the one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. By the grace of the Holy Spirit, it has survived persecution, plagues, heresies, corruption, and wars while continuing to teach the same truths for 2000 years. It has had innumerable miracles , including Fatima and Lourdes and dozens of incorruptible saints (those that die and don’t decay) that show the power of God in it . And it has taught for 2000 years that man must use his free will to cooperate with grace in order to enter heaven. In realty, you don’t believe much differently. You beleive that some one who has true faith in Christ will do the works he is called to do. And you further feel that if a man doesn’t do good works, he doesnt’ have true faith and won’t be saved. From the way a man lives his life, the result would be the same. You still need to love God and neighbor . (You would be strengthened to do so, if you had the sacraments, however…)

Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
6 I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations.
8 For it says, “Are not my princes [k]all kings?
9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish,
Or Hamath like Arpad,
Or Samaria like Damascus?
10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 Shall I not [l]do to Jerusalem and her images
Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”

12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.” 13 For he has said,

“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down [o]their inhabitants,
14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest,
And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth;
And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”

** 15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a [p]club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.**
16 Therefore the Lord, the [q]GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors;
And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.

 

[steve_b]

The following quote is a response to the questions at the bottom of this: link.

Not looking for a response
In Catholic understanding is the God represented in the scripture below a Just God?
In Catholic understanding would this be a representation of God willing evil?
Do you think the Assyrians are pawns and/or puppets?
Do you think they were used for theater?
Did they have free will?
How does this agree or disagree with Catholic understanding of free will?
What happened to those in verse 15 who pridefully thought they controlled the Almighty instead of realizing He was in control?

Isaiah 10:5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
6 I send it against a godless nation
And commission it against the people of My fury
To capture booty and to seize plunder,
And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 Yet it does not so intend,
Nor does it plan so in its heart,
But rather it is its purpose to destroy
And to cut off many nations.
8 For it says, “Are not my princes [k]all kings?
9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish,
Or Hamath like Arpad,
Or Samaria like Damascus?
10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols,
Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 Shall I not [l]do to Jerusalem and her images
Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”

12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.” 13 For he has said,

“By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this,
For I have understanding;
And I removed the boundaries of the peoples
And plundered their treasures,
And like a mighty man I brought down [o]their inhabitants,
14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest,
And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth;
And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”

15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it?
Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it?
That would be like a [p]club wielding those who lift it,
Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.
16 Therefore the Lord, the [q]GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors;
And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame,
And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body,
And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number
That a child could write them down.

Even though you’re not looking for a response, I won’t look for one either

I think this is a good example of

• free will being truly free.
• And God not desiring anyone to use free will against HIS will, because there are serious consequences to that

As an aside, Re: “destruction of body & soul”

the soul is immortal. It will live forever. The question is where? Distruction of the soul in that context has to be seperation from God for all eternity. Far worse than actual distruction. At least with distruction, it’s over. Lights out. But the soul actually doesn’t die. It’s fully awake and aware, after death. It retains memory intellect and will. Remember Jesus telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus?

 

[mro]

In order to go to heaven you must be a landowning, white Anglo-Saxon Christian male!

That’s at least what we taught 200 years ago

 

[steve_b]

In order to go to heaven you must be a landowning, white Anglo-Saxon Christian male!

That’s at least what we taught 200 years ago

you’re such a kidder

 

[PRmerger]

In order to go to heaven you must be a landowning, white Anglo-Saxon Christian male!

That’s at least what we taught 200 years ago

How 'bout something to back your claim up? Something from an encyclical or the Magisterium would be required.

 

[mro]

How 'bout something to back your claim up? Something from an encyclical or the Magisterium would be required.

It was Sarcasm

 

[PRmerger]

It was Sarcasm

'kay. If you say so.

Sarcasm is the protest of the weak. I rarely use it.

Just sayin’.

 

[mro]

'kay. If you say so.

Sarcasm is the protest of the weak. I rarely use it.

Just sayin’.

Come on dude have a sense of humor… I wasn’t protesting anything and I’m not weak… It was a joke

 

[PRmerger]

Come on dude have a sense of humor… I wasn’t protesting anything and I’m not weak… It was a joke

'kay.

I stand corrected. I didn’t know you were joking.

Now I know.

Haha!

 

[Philthy]

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I remain confused by your explanations, though. Look at these two statements you made:

I have maintained that “good works” are …not a contributing factor to Salvation…

I v I:

I believe man’s actions have salvific consequences.

Are these not in direct contradiction to one another?
It seems to me that “good works” are a subset of “man’s actions”; and it also seems that things which are a “contributing factor to salvation” have, by definition, “salvific consequences”.
You, however, have stated that “good works” do not have salvific consequence (ie they don’t contribute to salvation) while simultaneously claiming that “man’s actions” have salvific consequences. Quite honestly I can’t follow you - how can man’s actions (which includes good works) both not contribute to salvation and have salvific consequences? Care to explain?

However, in some cases the origination of these actions is where we disagree.

I don’t think that is the problem in this particular instance.

 

[Philthy]

Philthy:

Additionally, I understand the term “our actions” to mean those actions which are entirely of our choosing in the sense that God will allow both choice A and choice B and what is actually chosen is of our choosing. We are not forced by God in any sense to make the choice we make. Is that your understanding of “our actions”? Y or N, please.

I v I:

Yes and No. I’ll explain what I mean.
I believe the Bible tells us that in terms of Salvation, man left to himself will indeed make his/her own choice. However, the only choice man of himself can make is to reject Christ. So in this case I agree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

Fair enough: apart from grace we will reject God.

As for those who accept Christ, I believe the Bible tells us that the only way to come to faith in Christ is for God Himself to give it to man. Without Him giving them the faith, they would never have chosen Him. So in this case I disagree that “our actions” are entirely of man’s choosing.

Fair enough, but I don’t believe you have quite addressed the entire issue of whether man is actually choosing anything when he has been empowered by grace. Are you saying that anyone who receives grace will always choose Christ? Y or N - please note both conditionals.
My position is that anyone who chooses Christ does so empowered by grace but not forced by it, but simultaneously recognizes that while some people empowered by grace accept Christ, some people receiving the same grace will not.
Do you agree or disagree with this?
Additionally some people who accept Christ by grace later reject him and “fall from grace”. This is exactly what Paul describes in his letter to the Galatians that I carefully reviewed. Your only response as I recall was to dismiss the entirety of that particular section of the letter as Paul speaking in a “temporal” perspective that was somehow inconsistent with God’s “eternal” perspective. Quite honestly I don’t believe that is a distinction made in Scripture and it really doesnt address the fact of why, if the temporal perspective were irrelevant (which is what your claim makes it) Paul bothered to say it and why it is part of Scripture for us (unlike his other letter(s) which are not in Scripture. In short, you didnt actually establish:
a) that there is a “temporal” perspective to inspired Scripture that can contradict God’s eternal perspective
b) that this is the situation in Paul’s letter to the Galatians

 

[Philthy]

I have pointed out that our actions don’t have consequences that span outside the set plan of God

Philthy:

No one has ever claimed that they do.

So then you would agree that it is in the plan of God that not all men are Saved and some people go to hell?

No I would not agree with that rephrasing. You used the word “set plan” in the original quote. I have repeatedly said that it is God’s Sovereign Will that our choices have real consequences now and in eternity. You have now substituted the term “set plan” for God’s Sovereign Will and then subsequently dropped “set” from the discussion entirely.

And because God is omniscient, this was in His plan from before creation?

God’s plan allows for the possibility that people will choose Him or reject Him. He doesnt “set” who will accept him and who will not. He makes the offer, by grace, and he allows us - empowered by that grace - to actually accept or reject Him.

 

[Philthy]

"Philthy:

You keep saying that nothing happens outside of God’s Will in the sense that EVERYTHING that happens EXACTLY the way that it happens is CAUSED TO HAPPEN by God. Is this a fair representation of your position? Y or N?

No, but almost. I believe that …everything does indeed happen just as God Wills it to happen…However, I do not believe It tells us that God CAUSES it all to happen.

OK, but this means that everything that happens is God’s Will, including evil. That is very different than saying that God brings good out of evil (Catholic position). You are saying He wills evil and that we, his willed creation, cause it for him.

I believe …God is the cause of all good and creation is the cause of all bad. However, even the bad caused from creation is exactly what God Wills to happen in order to make His glory known.

Just out of curiousity, why would God care about making his glory known?

 

[Philthy]

I believe Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man.

I certainly agree that there is no salvation apart from God, but your statement simply begs the question of why we have the Gospels and NT letters written by MEN if salvation is ALL of God in the sense that you mean it. How silly is that, really?
God: You won’t know me except by my word, because salvation is ALL me, but uh, I’m not actually gonna write the words and get em organized for you - I’ll leave that up to others to do. In addition those same Gospels and letters are filled with verses encouraging us (when encouragement - a human endeavor - cannot alter our eternal destiny), warning us (another human endeavor) and educating us (another human endeavor). Is it all a big charade? A slight of the hand “temporal perspective”?

I think we can all agree that God is omniscient, and He is the only One Who creates, and when He creates He creates perfectly (meaning He makes no mistakes in creating His creations). Your choices are a direct result of how God chose to create you in tandem with the environment He chose to place you in. Before God created you He knew exactly what you were going to do in every single situation you were going to be in. NOT ONLY because He is omniscient, but also because He is creating you (your looks, 5 senses, attitude, personality, mind, all else) and creating the environment you will be in and will see exactly how His creation of you will react in every single situation you will ever be in. If at any point in God’s omniscient view of your life before He created you He sees that you would react in a way He truly does not want. He could “edit” His creation of you before He actually created you so that you would react as He pleased

.
But if he did this he would eliminate our ability to love him and for some mysterious reason he wishes to be loved by us.

So even if you hold to this idea of God’s Sovereignty, you still have to come up with a theory that separates your choices from God’s initial creation in order to say they are totally of yourself. If not, it would seem your choices are still bound by the Will of God in a way that you seem to be apposed to.

Not really. We have not been given much info about God’s “original creation” and what was on his mind and what his motives were exactly. What we have been given, my friend, is some reasonably clear ideas about who God is in terms that we CAN understand through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. All these lofty theories about “temporal perspective”, eternal perspective, revealed will, concealed will, etc etc remain…lofty theological notions. God gave us a Church to be the pillar and foundation of truth. And he gave us his word in Sacred Scripture through that Church. The Church and Scripture both confirm some very basic realities about our lives here on earth. Part of the reality confirmed by them both is that this life is a struggle - a battle of eternal good vs eternal evil. God has not left us orphaned in this battle: he has left his holy Spirit to help us conquer evil with good. In addition Scripture and the Church tell us clearly that we are to “stay awake” and “persevere” and “forgive others” and “love one another” and to avoid sin by “living in the spirit”. And the same Scripture and Church tell us that we have a choice between good and evil and that the choices we make have eternal consequences. This much is irrefutable, really. At the same time I readily admit that trying to unite these facts with God’s omniscience, sovereignty, justice, love and immutability is beyond our abilities. In God’s infinite wisdom He has not given us all the answers. We should be very careful not take an imperfect understanding of these lofty aspects of God’s nature, combine it with a genuine desire to know Him better and mistakenly use the combination as a distorted lens through which we effectively invalidate the clear, understandable things He has revealed to us through Scripture (and the Church).
In short, we should stick to the basics: If we are told “love one another” we should take it to mean we have a choice to do so (or not) and that God wants us to strive to love one another. If we are told to forgive others and that if we don’t we won’t be forgiven (cf Matt 6:14) we should take God at his word and genuinely seek to forgive and resist the real temptation to hold a grudge knowing that our own forgiveness will rest upon how we forgive others. It is these simple things that are repeated over and over in Scripture that truly warrant our attention and effort; and our trying to pry open the mysteries of God’s eternal Will is not an excuse for choosing to ignore those clear things we are called to do.

Blessings