Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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Marc_Anthony said:
Nobody said works let us merit Heaven. But we understand that to have true faith we need works. Protestants understand it too, Catholics just separate the two.
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I think we separate because as this thread shows most Catholics don’t
 
Marc_Anthony said:
…And as I said, it can be assumed that the good thief would be willing to perform good works. That is good enough.
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That spurious at best. It can’t be assumed anything, we can see that the thief was justified by his Faith in Christ Alone. He had sola fide
 
That’s not spurious at best. You yourself would agree, because justifying faith has good works result from it.
 
You are wrong. You are misnterpreting what Catholics believe. You are determined to be contrary here.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
That’s not spurious at best. You yourself would agree, because justifying faith has good works result from it.
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No I don’t agree with your assessment. You still think they are mandatory I do not. A person can get saved and not get a chance to do anything and still be justified by his Faith in Christ. We can know we are saved by our faith works or not
 
Marc_Anthony said:
You are wrong. You are misinterpreting what Catholics believe. You are determined to be contrary here.
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No I don’t I was one for close to 20 years. I believe you don’t know what Catholics really believe
 
Works, or intentions to do works are needed. You admitted that when you said for it to be justifying faith fruits would naturally follow. So you agree. You just don’t want to admit you agree for some reason.

Please, open up to the possiblity that we really do think the same way here.
 
Listen, one of us is misinterpreting what Catholics believe. Until we find out who this is debate is futile.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Works, or intentions to do works are needed. You admitted that when you said for it to be justifying faith fruits would naturally follow. So you agree. You just don’t want to admit you agree for some reason.

Please, open up to the possibility that we really do think the same way here.
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No I don’t agree at all. No intentions are necessary works aren’t even necessary just Faith in Christ alone. Fundamentally we will never believe the same thing
 
The Bible separates the two as well:

James 2 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works… A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith, meaning Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law. James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God.

I too am bowing out…and pray that we will all be fruitful in our love for Christ.
 
activeChristian said:
I don’t think so
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“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is of course, quite a different thing.” —Bishop Fulton Sheen

Ignorant Catholic=Future Protestant
 
James and Paul both don’t disparage or minimize works. Paul himself says that the idea of going ahead and sinning like crazy after justification makes no sense. James is right that a lively faith has works that proceed from it. But these works have nothing to do with salvation. They proceed from a lively faith and witness to one’s faith but the works themselves do not save. Christ’s salvific act on the Cross cannot be matched or repaid or put on a par with our own good deeds. Jesus justifies the sinner and nails the Law to the Cross Paul tells us. The legal claims of the Law are nailed into oblivion with it. We are not to look at works so that none may boast. We are to do good works for the sake of doing them, not because we earn salvation or combine them with faith to achieve a merit status before God. The good thief on the Cross didn’t have time for good works, was assured salvation by Christ.
sixofseven said:
The Bible separates the two as well:

James 2 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works… A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith, meaning Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law. James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God.

I too am bowing out…and pray that we will all be fruitful in our love for Christ.
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Beyond being insulting as heck, this isn’t necessarily true one iota. Look at how many Catholics you have, an overwhelming majority by the Church’s own reckoning, of people who use birth control in the Church. Look at how many in enormous numbers divorce and remarry without marriage tribunals and annulments. Look at how many don’t go to confession, how many are actively gay and still attend (priests included!), how many want women priests and actively lobby for it, and how many vote pro-choice. Catholics helped in the ascendancy of Obama. These people are all still Catholic, not Protestant.

Also, I have spoken and continue to meet people not only at my church but here in CAF who are very, very well-educated and catechized Catholics who just plain don’t believe in Catholic dogma and many items theologically who went Protestant. Just because a person leaves Catholicism and came to a different conclusion than yourself doesn’t necessarily equal a bozo. Don’t equal poor catechesis and ignorance with Protestantism. Different conclusions, that’s all.
Mayita30 said:
Ignorant Catholic=Future Protestant
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Mayita30 said:
Philippinas 2:12

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, **work out your salvation **with fear and trembling.
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This verse has far too much contained within it to be a bare reference to salvation through works. Firstly, if it is a reference to that, then Paul contradicts himself within the very same letter. In chapter 3:8-9: “Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.” In 2:12 Paul means “salvation” in terms of progressively coming to experience all of the aspects and blessings of salvation. The Philippians’ continued obedience is an inherent part of “working out” their salvation in this sense. But as v. 13 demonstrates, these works are the result of God’s work within his people. Even the desire (“to will”) to do what is good comes from God; but he also works in the believer to generate actual choices of the good, so that the desires result in actions. While God’s justice is a cause for sober living (“fear and trembling”), it is not as though Paul wants the Philippians to be anxious that they can never be good enough to merit God’s favor.
 
Mayita30 said:
Philippinas 2:12

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, **work out your salvation **with fear and trembling.
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Works do not save and i you think so you only end in Hell
 
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