Good Works, or Faith Alone?

[activeChristian]

Who says that following Christ and the Church is incompatible? I believe Christ is true. I believe he established his onre true Church in order to spread the Truth. I believe Christ is the head and the Church is his body.

It’s silly to say that because I believe the Church is true I can’t believe Christ is true. In fact, it’s the opposite. I believe the Church is true BECAUSE I believe Christ is the Truth. Come on now, that’s faulty logic of the highest order that you used to make yourself sound somehow more righteous or religious than me.

Let Christ be true and all else lies. The RCC is made up of many lies or errors

 

[Marc_Anthony]

2 things:

1. How can you accuse me of twisting words around to suit my needs when I find a verse that says “See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” and somehow you decide that it can’t mean that you get justification through faith and works?
2. I believe that Jesus Christ founded the Church and through his divine authority made it infallible on teachings of faith and morals. Christ is the head, the Church is the body. Believing the Church is the Truth is a natural consequence of believing Christ is the Truth since I believe Christ founded the Church and made it infallible.

 

[Loboto-Me]

A myth? Why did M.Luther ADD the word “alone” to his translation? His own words:

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127

 

[Marc_Anthony]

So by translate that means he could add words to Scripture?

If Jesus Christ is the only Truth then why are you stuck on a Lutheran teaching anyway?In fact, if Jesus Christ is the only Truth, by your logic the Bible can’t be true. Jesus Christ is the only Truth. Not the Bible.

 

[TriuneUnity]

So by translate that means he could add words to Scripture?

If Jesus Christ is the only Truth then why are you stuck on a Lutheran teaching anyway?In fact, if Jesus Christ is the only Truth, by your logic the Bible can’t be true. Jesus Christ is the only Truth. Not the Bible.

Uh no, Marc. It means that translations are not word for word translations. That’s not how languages work unless they’re very closely related, like French and Italian. The Greek language conveys word concepts which then have to be translated into words in another language that convey the same concepts using that language. If it were a transliteration, it wouldn’t make sense.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

See Loboto-Me’s post.

Aren’t we going for the most accurate translation here? Not Luther-apparently his will is enough to decide that Sacred Scripture isn’t enough.

And again, Christ is the only Truth; why believe in the Bible at all? After all, Christ didn’t write it or establish it, and He’s the only Truth.

 

[TriuneUnity]

See Loboto-Me’s post.

Aren’t we going for the most accurate translation here? Not Luther-apparently his will is enough to decide that Sacred Scripture isn’t enough.

You want a word for word transliteration of Romans 3:28? Okay, fine: “to reckon a man to show to be righteous faith separately work that which is assigned.”

Would make for great reading, wouldn’t it?

And again, Christ is the only Truth; why believe in the Bible at all? After all, Christ didn’t write it or establish it, and He’s the only Truth.

So you deny the Bible to be the word of God?

I think you need to rethink your Dave Armstrong hand me downs.

 

[workingman]

It wasn’t ignored. Devils are not justified through Faith by Christ alone, it does not mean one must work to be saved.

No they are not justified you are correct. But they do know and believe who the Christ is else why would they tremble in fear. This falls into the faith alone or belief alone.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

No, I believe in the Bible since the Catholic Church which Christ made infallible on rulings of faith and morals decided which books would be in the Bible.

But you don’t believe in anybody’s authority but Christ. Christ did not write or establish as official a single book in the New Testament. He is the only Truth. So why do you believe the Bible at all? It’s a serious question.

And again, read Loboto-Me’s post. Apparently Luther’s will is important enough to change the meaning of a passage.

EDIT: BTW, I said most accurate translation. Apparently you took that to mean word for word transliteration. I didn’t.

 

[TriuneUnity]

No they are not justified you are correct. But they do know and believe who the Christ is else why would they tremble in fear. This falls into the faith alone or belief alone.

Faith does not equal belief. Faith equals trust. I believe in the chair I am sitting on. I have faith (trust) that it won’t break under me.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Triune, you got Mark’s post completely mixed up. He was replying to Active post saying that Luther was translating the bible and that’s why “alone” should be in there. Mark was saying that just because Luther translated the bible, it gives him a ticket to add words to the bible which changes the whole passage?

Translating in one thing, adding to it is another. Other bible translations managed to translate the bible in context but Luther managed to lead a whole slew of people astray by changing scripture.

 

[TriuneUnity]

No, I believe in the Bible since the Catholic Church which Christ made infallible on rulings of faith and morals decided which books would be in the Bible.

Sola ecclesia.

But you don’t believe in anybody’s authority but Christ. Christ did not write or establish as official a single book in the New Testament. He is the only Truth. So why do you believe the Bible at all? It’s a serious question.

Yes He did. In virtue of the fact that He inspired some books and not others.

And again, read Loboto-Me’s post. Apparently Luther’s will is important enough to change the meaning of a passage.

Really? Then what was Augustine’s excuse in his commentary on Romans 3:28? "icet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (De fide et operibus, 22.40)

EDIT: BTW, I said most accurate translation. Apparently you took that to mean word for word transliteration. I didn’t.

But you would have to in order to include the argument that “words” were added to the Bible. Every translation uses words that aren’t in the Greek.

 

[workingman]

Faith does not equal belief. Faith equals trust. I believe in the chair I am sitting on. I have faith (trust) that it won’t break under me.

Ah but they do have faith. Faith and belief that they will be smote in a smoldering heap so hens the trembling in fear.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Right, like Loboto-Me said…no other Bible translation before Luther added the word alone to that passge, and no other Church before Luther’s believed in faith alone or without works. So where does Luther get the authority to change this belief?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Or St. Thomas Aquinas: “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588))

or St. Bernard: “solam justificatur per fidem (In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881)

or St. Marius Victorinus: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” ((ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16)

 

[TriuneUnity]

No they are not justified you are correct. But they do know and believe who the Christ is else why would they tremble in fear. This falls into the faith alone or belief alone.

Yes; but they don’t have trust that Christ has died for their sins and was raised for their justification. Because He didn’t.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

If Christ died before any books were written, how do you know which books he inspired? On what authority are you deciding that such-and-such book is inspired Scripture?

 

[Loboto-Me]

Triune, you are misconstruing some posts. The questions asked are asked out of surprise.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The Saints were not infallible; the Church is.

 

[activeChristian]

28 **For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
**
Romans 3:28

No works justify us, even without the word alone