Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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You guys wouldn’t admit it if you were losing, would ya? Come on now. Nobody’s ever going to admit they’re losing a debate LOL…

I think it stinks that his posts were removed. He had the right to say what he wanted and I don’t think he was particularly biting or nasty or personal with anyone…at least most of the posts I actually read of his.

I won’t say that I think he was removed because he was winning. But I will say that it’s rare to see a Catholic get banned and Protestants frequently are. Just an observation.
Marc_Anthony said:
Interesting…all of activechristian’s posts were removed.

I do hope nobody claims it was because they didn’t want him to win the debate or anything silly like that. I don’t think he was convincing anybody.

I’m not accusing anybody but I notice that on other posts when the posts of a major opposition voice are removed for whatever reason people immediately start claiming it’s because the Catholic Church doesn’t want them to win the debate.

I thought we were doing fine debate-wise. It’s subjective, but I thought we were winning. And if we weren’t, we were holding our own quite well I thought.
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Regarding the Works + Faith question, I recently was exposed (or subjected) to a new version of “Amazing Grace.” Replace “how sweet the sound” with “plus works,” so it goes:

Amazing grace plus wo-o-orks

Never, ever write a bad version of a hymn if it’s gonna be that bad. 😃
 
…how sweet the sound that saved a wretch, however a concupiscent one who is able to be sanctified with infusion in a mysterious combination of faith and works and who is not really a wretch but basically virtuous and good, like me!
blazerdave said:
Regarding the Works + Faith question, I recently was exposed (or subjected) to a new version of “Amazing Grace.” Replace “how sweet the sound” with “plus works,” so it goes:

Amazing grace plus wo-o-orks

Never, ever write a bad version of a hymn if it’s gonna be that bad. 😃
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Marc_Anthony said:
Interesting…all of activechristian’s posts were removed.

I do hope nobody claims it was because they didn’t want him to win the debate or anything silly like that. I don’t think he was convincing anybody.

I’m not accusing anybody but I notice that on other posts when the posts of a major opposition voice are removed for whatever reason people immediately start claiming it’s because the Catholic Church doesn’t want them to win the debate.

I thought we were doing fine debate-wise. It’s subjective, but I thought we were winning. And if we weren’t, we were holding our own quite well I thought.
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The way this thread runs with all the short posts is like a chatting room; real life chat. It is a bit difficult to keep up with each other thought or idea, and replies can get lost in the posts.

I think the way the other poster coming up with a one phrase esserting her point is not very conducive for a forum like this - unless you are on the computer for all the hours you post your replies.

It is good not to always think of who is winning or losing. Remember we are always speaking from our own perspective; and nobody is really right or wrong. I think you did well though. 🙂
 
Well, I realize that debate is all subjective. But we ARE trying to convince other people to come to our point of view, so in that sense, there is a “winner” and a “loser”…i.e. whoever comes out looking better at the end of the debate.

But yeah, obviously I realize that Protestants reading this thread would look and think the Protestants were winning. But I think we Catholics did a fine job defending our position on the issue, just as I think active Christian, TriuneUnity, and gurneyhalleck did a good job defending their position on the issue.

Also, I think the reason more Protestants are removed is twofold:
  1. Outnumbered on a Catholic website I would imagine to be frustrating.
  2. Since there are obviously far more Catholics here you’re less likely to notice when Catholic posts are deleted.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Well, I realize that debate is all subjective. But we ARE trying to convince other people to come to our point of view, so in that sense, there is a “winner” and a “loser”…i.e. whoever comes out looking better at the end of the debate.

But yeah, obviously I realize that Protestants reading this thread would look and think the Protestants were winning. But I think we Catholics did a fine job defending our position on the issue, just as I think active Christian, TriuneUnity, and gurneyhalleck did a good job defending their position on the issue.

Also, I think the reason more Protestants are removed is twofold:
  1. Outnumbered on a Catholic website I would imagine to be frustrating.
  2. Since there are obviously far more Catholics here you’re less likely to notice when Catholic posts are deleted.
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I have had posts deleted before, deservedly so however. It gets frustrating when a non Catholic comes in and dictates what the Catholic Church “truly” teaches when we present evidence to the contrary it does nothing to sway the conversation.

It is okay to not agree with the actual teaching, on the other hand to keep beating the same untrue drum thinking we would eventually get it is reason to be removed. I believe that is what happened in this case.

We presented what the Church teaches on faith and works and he kept on spewing what his version of the truth was even though he was mistaken.

Again, not the idea, the teaching. Whether one agrees with the Church’s stance is your option, you cannot come here and continuously misrepresent the teaching.
 
Lapey-You had a point there, I noticed it. We actually posted an article from the Catechism stating exactly what the Church believed on faith and works. His response (I’m paraphrasing, but when I posted this he didn’t deny it): “You say you teach that but you don’t.”

That’s like me telling you the Earth revolves around the sun and then having you say, “You say the Earth revolves around the sun but you don’t really tell people that except that you just did now.”
 
I was just reading the posts from the beginning, and it got me to thinking (ut oh :eek: )

This is something that i’m ruminating in my head through the other posts so bear with me.

Now we all know that sometimes, love is a choice that we need to make. You know sometimes we don’t love our spouse but we drudge through the action of loving. To strengthen my idea of love as a choice… Take an arranged marriage, we have heard of these marriages that turn into a love for each other through “going through the motions” at first.

I’ve actually done some “going through the motions” of liking a person, then because I tried harder by calling them up or going out with them, basically getting to know them through my “works” , through my actions.

Do you think it’s possible to start with works in order to receive grace and then get faith through those works? I think it could be done.I don’t know that this is in line with Catholic teaching as it was just some remembering that was happening as I was reading (the choosing to love through actions that become a genuine feeling).

Then, since I feel that “works” could grow into grace and then into faith (maybe?) what about the other way around… faith then works, then grace through the works? And obviously we do know about grace then faith then works.

I know that atheist can do good works that are dead, I know, but I wonder if that atheist, through repeatedly doing those good works could get an inkling of grace to help him gain faith?

We also know that there are many faithful people who genuinly cry “Lord, Lord” but do no works, making it again a dead faith.

I don’t know… philosophical ruminations in my head while reading. Whatcha think?

Oh and thanks Triune for missing at least my aroma if I ever disappear 😛
 
Loboto-Me said:
I was just reading the posts from the beginning, and it got me to thinking (ut oh :eek: )

This is something that i’m ruminating in my head through the other posts so bear with me.

Now we all know that sometimes, love is a choice that we need to make. You know sometimes we don’t love our spouse but we drudge through the action of loving. To strengthen my idea of love as a choice… Take an arranged marriage, we have heard of these marriages that turn into a love for each other through “going through the motions” at first.

I’ve actually done some “going through the motions” of liking a person, then because I tried harder by calling them up or going out with them, basically getting to know them through my “works” , through my actions.

Do you think it’s possible to start with works in order to receive grace and then get faith through those works? I think it could be done.I don’t know that this is in line with Catholic teaching as it was just some remembering that was happening as I was reading (the choosing to love through actions that become a genuine feeling).

Then, since I feel that “works” could grow into grace and then into faith (maybe?) what about the other way around… faith then works, then grace through the works? And obviously we do know about grace then faith then works.

I know that atheist can do good works that are dead, I know, but I wonder if that atheist, through repeatedly doing those good works could get an inkling of grace to help him gain faith?

We also know that there are many faithful people who genuinly cry “Lord, Lord” but do no works, making it again a dead faith.

I don’t know… philosophical ruminations in my head while reading. Whatcha think?

Oh and thanks Triune for missing at least my aroma if I ever disappear 😛
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I see what you are saying, but according to Church teaching, it’s not really possible to start with works first. Grace is what first moves us, and then we respond to that grace.

If you are going with the relationship metaphor then you could say that it is grace that first makes you interested in doing good works to try to catch the attention of a person and date him or her. It is that first attraction. Even with arranged marriages it’s not the good works that make them start to like each other; its some sort of attraction between them that happens just because of who they are as human beings, not because of specific actions.

The Church teaches, “Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification”. CCC 2010.

Even when atheists do good works, often God’s grace is working through them though they don’t know it. All good comes from God, the “Author of all that is good” CCC 14. Their works may be dead in the sense that they have no faith, and therefore they may not achieve salvation, but the good that comes out of it is Godly.
 
Thanks for replying, I suppose I have strange ideas that run through my head sometimes, but then, that’s what philosophers do right? Some need to put together strange ideas and wait for others to tell them where they’re going wrong?

I knew that the Church doesn’t teach what my mind was “what iffing” but sometimes you gotta run with an idea and put it out there just in case it’s not such a strange idea 🙂

PS: I was re-reading my post and saw at least one mistake. I meant that I have gone through the “motions” of liking someone when I didn’t really like that person at the beginning, and it turned into a friendship. I kind of got all of that jumbled up (was in a hurry to get my thoughts down before having to get off line)
 
Interesting linguistic choices, unbiased of course…;):rolleyes:

***Catholics “presenting”
Protestants “spewing” ***
Lapey said:
I have had posts deleted before, deservedly so however. It gets frustrating when a non Catholic comes in and dictates what the Catholic Church “truly” teaches when we present evidence to the contrary it does nothing to sway the conversation.

It is okay to not agree with the actual teaching, on the other hand to keep beating the same untrue drum thinking we would eventually get it is reason to be removed. I believe that is what happened in this case.

We presented what the Church teaches on faith and works and he kept on spewing what his version of the truth was even though he was mistaken.

Again, not the idea, the teaching. Whether one agrees with the Church’s stance is your option, you cannot come here and continuously misrepresent the teaching.
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The faith that saves is the faith that prays the Sinner’s Prayer [Confession] … and then accepts the other Sacraments of the Church [BAPTISM, CONFIRMATION, and EUCHARIST … in that order] and PERSEVERES in gracious works til the end.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Interesting linguistic choices, unbiased of course…;):rolleyes:

***Catholics “presenting”
Protestants “spewing” ***
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Thanks for the compliment! I agree, telling truth would be presentation, telling lies would be spewing. Glad we can agree.👍
 
Izdaari said:
Even though I am but a lowly Protestant, I try to present rather than spew. 😉
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If you read my comments, you will see I spoke of one poster, not all protestants. I have chatted with you before and I agree you do present.

Now please don’t make my comments mean more than was intended, that would turn into spewing.:rolleyes:
 
Loboto-Me said:
Thanks for replying, I suppose I have strange ideas that run through my head sometimes, but then, that’s what philosophers do right? Some need to put together strange ideas and wait for others to tell them where they’re going wrong?

I knew that the Church doesn’t teach what my mind was “what iffing” but sometimes you gotta run with an idea and put it out there just in case it’s not such a strange idea 🙂

PS: I was re-reading my post and saw at least one mistake. I meant that I have gone through the “motions” of liking someone when I didn’t really like that person at the beginning, and it turned into a friendship. I kind of got all of that jumbled up (was in a hurry to get my thoughts down before having to get off line)
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I think its great that you do some “what iffing”. It’s always important to question so that we can learn. That’s what is so great about the Catholic Church–there is so much theology and philosophy to explore: 2000 years of development is a lot. Way to be a good Catholic 😉

I just wanted to make it clear to everyone (I’m not pick in you Loboto–like I said, it’s great that you are doing some pondering–we all should do more of that), since I know I have made the mistake before, that it is grace that saves us and we can’t do anything to earn that initial grace. I used to think otherwise and honestly sometimes I still think that it is all me–that I am a good person, it’s all my merits that make me better than someone else. But that is absolutely not true. I am no better than anyone and all the good that I do comes from allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me. We must cooperate with grace and the Holy Spirit, and then we can merit with faith and good works the other essential graces needed for salvation.

We, as Catholics, just need to make it clear to Protestants that we do not think that we can earn salvation. It’s a gift from God. That’s what the Church teaches, and we all (myself especially) should try to make that clear. I think if many Protestants understood that they would realize that they actually agree.

It’s often misunderstanding that leads to disagreements between Protestants and Catholics, isn’t it? We can all attest to that.

God’s grace is essential, and we cooperate with it through Faith and Good Works to attain salvation, a gift from God.

Thanks again Loboto!
 
Diana Leslie,

I find Protestants really stuck on the idea of ‘works’.

IF I look at the good the members do of parishes and faith communities…they are ALL doing good works in response to the Gospel.

So I am coming to the conclusion that this whole idea of ‘works’ is a spin.
 
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